over 15 hours?

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
101

scotslad:
Where is the law that says the diver must start where he finished?

Again, read Coffeeholic’s posts in full and all is explained. In brief he doesn’t ALWAYS have to start where he finished, but if he finishes anywhere that isn’t an operating centre of the vehicle he is driving then time spent travelling to/from it counts as other work UNLESS he returns to the same PLACE (not necessarily the same vehicle) to start his shift after he has taken the required rest. This other work is illegal if the driver has already hit his 15h for that shift.

Again, for a fuller explanation read Coffeeholic’s posts on this thread thoroughly as it’s all in there.

Again it is a nonsense law, but it nevertheless it is the law. We don’t make it, we’re simply explaining it to you.

Paul

102

scotslad:

ROG:

scotslad:
So where is the law that says that? Whos to say the driver will have the same vehicle on the monday. I didnt say the law was nonsense i said the comments on here are nonsense

Coffeeholic:
It can move if the company want to use it, they’ll just have to return it, or another vehicle, for the driver to resume work from that place. Or even collect the driver in a car or van when he resumes work.

Where is the law that says the diver must start where he finished?

There isn’t one, but in the question posed by the OP on this thread there is no other option available.Once a driver completes15 hours duty time they must start a rest period, using one of their available reduced daily rests. That is it, they cannot legally do another minutes work so cannot travel back to the depot as that is classed as other work, a point which the regulations are very clear on.

After completeting the 9 hour rest period the driver can resume work, but in the scenario outlined in this thread it will have to be the same place they finished at as they did not have any time available to legally travel elsewhere. What the driver did during the 9 hours rest is their business and if they did spend part of their rest travelling somewhere else then they cannot resume from that new location. If they do resume from a new location, 9 hours after beginning their rest period the time spent travelling to the new location will become other work and will mean they have not completed 9 hours rest in the 24-hour period, which is not legal and is again something the regulations are very clear on.

As I said before, the original question is really a very simple one about what a driver must do on completion of 15 hours duty and the very simple answer is commence a rest period, there is no other legal option. If you begin a rest period in one location after doing the maximum 15 hours duty, then you will have to end that rest period there other wise part of the 9 hours will not be rest. The only exception is when travelling by ferry or train and the driver has access to a bunk or couchette, then the start and end location of the rest period can be different. However, after 15 hours duty it would have to be a ferry or train journey of at least 9 hours as the interuppted ferry/train rest option is not available if you work 15 hours… The rules are also very clear on this point.

It all comes down to maths and what does and does not add up to 24.

Examples.

Scenario 1

Driver completes 14 hours duty in Milton Keynes, leaves the vehicle there and travels to his home in Luton, which takes 1 hour and is clearly classed as other work for the tacho rules, then begins his rest period as he has now completed 15 hours duty. He begins his rest period in Luton, he didn’t book off in Milton Keynes as he still had 1 hour of work. 15 hours duty + 9 hours rest = 24.

Someone else collects the vehicle from Milton Keynes and returns it to his employers base in Hatfield. Later the driver travels to his employers base in Hatfield to resume work, booking on when he gets there, but not before 9 hours have elapsed from the time he commenced his rest period, and that travelling time to Hatfield does not count as other work because he is travelling to his regular work place. If he travels to anywhere else to collect a vehicle then that time would be other work and he couldn’t commence that journey until he had completed his 9-hour rest period and in those cicumstances he would be resuming work in Luton, the place he booked of at.

Scenario 2

Driver completes 15 hours duty in Milton Keynes, leaves the vehicle there and travels to his home in Luton, which takes 1 hour and is clearly classed as other work for the tacho rules, then begins his rest period. Illegal, he can no longer fit the minimum required rest period of 9 hours into the 24-hour period as he has now completed 16 hours duty and as we all know 16 + 9 = 25. If he travels to Luton in his rest period, something he can freely do as he disposes of his time as he sees fit then for that time to not be classed as other work he would have to either return to Milton Keyenes to resume work 9 hours later or not commence the journey to Luton until 9 hours have elapsed and the rest period is completed. The travelling time after the 9 hour rest period would be classed as other work, so he has booked on in the same place he booked off, Milton Keynes.

As Repton said it is a bit of a nonsense regulation but just because a legal requirement is nonsense you cannot ignore it and stay legal.

103

repton:

scotslad:
Where is the law that says the diver must start where he finished?

Again, read Coffeeholic’s posts in full and all is explained. In brief he doesn’t ALWAYS have to start where he finished, but if he finishes anywhere that isn’t an operating centre of the vehicle he is driving then time spent travelling to/from it counts as other work UNLESS he returns to the same PLACE (not necessarily the same vehicle) to start his shift after he has taken the required rest. This other work is illegal if the driver has already hit his 15h for that shift.

Again, for a fuller explanation read Coffeeholic’s posts on this thread thoroughly as it’s all in there.

Again it is a nonsense law, but it nevertheless it is the law. We don’t make it, we’re simply explaining it to you.Paul

I dont need an explanation i know the tacho laws and anything i have said is correct concerning the matter. And i would stand up in court and fight it

104

scotslad:
I dont need an explanation i know the tacho laws and anything i have said is correct concerning the matter. And i would stand up in court and fight it

There’s no point us arguing with you if you’re going to tell us we’re wrong without explaining why. If you can show us which part of the regulations we’re interpreting wrong then please do, but if your entire argument is going to be “you’re wrong and I know better than you” then we’re all wasting our time.

Paul

105

scotslad:
Where is the law that says the diver must start where he finished?

Hi scotslad, The easy answer to that is that the law doesn’t say that.

That’s because it doesn’t need to.
That’s because it is implied in the Regs.
The Regs don’t need to spell out everything and every scenario in great depth and detail, otherwise a copy of the Regs would make for a very thick book indeed.

If you are correct in this:

scotslad:
I dont need an explanation i know the tacho laws

Then you’ll already know that the answer is implied from exactly what Coffeeholic has already said, so effectively you’ve either just shot yourself in the foot, or you don’t actually understand the Regs.
Wouldn’t you now agree that the answer is clear without the Regs needing every possible alternative scenario to be written out in full?

scotslad:
and anything i have said is correct concerning the matter. And i would stand up in court and fight it

Except if your case/defence were built on your request to see where the Regs actually say that a driver must always book back on at the same location at the start of a new shift. Since that doesn’t exist in the Regs, because it doesn’t need to, I’m afraid that the hearing of your case probably wouldn’t last very long. :frowning:

106

I havn’t lost yet :smiley:

107

Order yourself a VOSA handbook and have a fall out with that… These guys no there stuff and your trying to argue the facts… Why not phone VOSA themselves and ask or as said get a driver hours book and fall out with it…

108

scottishcruiser:
Order yourself a VOSA handbook and have a fall out with that… These guys no there stuff and your trying to argue the facts… Why not phone VOSA themselves and ask or as said get a driver hours book and fall out with it…

I dont need to order a book when i get them sent to me i know whats in them, i dont need to sit and read paragraphs out of them and quote them on here, anyone can do that. Like ive said before ive been a tacho analyist for many years i know the law

109

scotslad:
Like ive said before ive been a tacho analyist for many years i know the law

OK then, as you seem so sure you’re right, please explain to us where we are going wrong with our interpretation of the legislation. The “you’re all wrong I know better than you” argument is obviously not getting you anywhere so why not show us using your decades of experience what we’re reading wrong?

Paul

110

scotslad:
Like ive said before ive been a tacho analyist for many years i know the law

You would not be the first tacho analysist to come on here insisting they were correct about something because they had been doing it for years only to be proved wrong. One was even an ex copper who claimed he had prosecuted people for something he claimed was right, he was proved wrong as well.

Anything you have said so far in support of your stance, and you haven’t said that much to be honest, leads to the driver having insufficient daily rest. The travelling time to somewhere other than his home or regular depot is clearly stated in the regulations to be other work and furthermore has been proved to be such in a court of law thanks to the Skills Coaches case. Insufficient daily rest is an offence, simple as that.

In previous threads on this subject there have been posts from a VOSA official confirming the travelling time to be other work so you would really be wasting your time if you decided to stand up in court and fight it.

111

Ayup,always wondered what happened to ExCop.What a laugh he was :slight_smile:

112

Coffeeholic wrote:

It can move if the company want to use it, they’ll just have to return it, or another vehicle, for the driver to resume work from that place. Or even collect the driver in a car or van when he resumes work.

i have been reading all these posts and would like to ask

1 if you have run out of time and you say get a lift home or a van to go home and you come back to the truck and the truck as been swapped over when you put you tacho in the mileage will be different and the reg will be different so how can a driver prove that he did not go back to the depot as is last tacho is different from the one in the tacho now

2 and also the truck could be digital tacho and you don’t put an end place on it just the country you end your shift and start shift

3 so the truck you left at the services was an analogue tacho and the over was digital again how would you prove you did not go back to depot

4 i know that you can right on the back to say why but would that be accepted as proof

del

113

repton:

scotslad:
Like ive said before ive been a tacho analyist for many years i know the law

OK then, as you seem so sure you’re right, please explain to us where we are going wrong with our interpretation of the legislation. The “you’re all wrong I know better than you” argument is obviously not getting you anywhere so why not show us using your decades of experience what we’re reading wrong?

Paul

your not going wrong anywhere your just jumping on the bandwagon saying he says this and he says that :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

114

scotslad:
your not going wrong anywhere

Well one of us must be going wrong somewhere given that we have opposite views on the rules.

Paul

115

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic wrote:

It can move if the company want to use it, they’ll just have to return it, or another vehicle, for the driver to resume work from that place. Or even collect the driver in a car or van when he resumes work.

i have been reading all these posts and would like to ask

1 if you have run out of time and you say get a lift home or a van to go home and you come back to the truck and the truck as been swapped over when you put you tacho in the mileage will be different and the reg will be different so how can a driver prove that he did not go back to the depot as is last tacho is different from the one in the tacho now

The driver doesn’t have to prove anything, it is up to the enforcement authorities to prove the driver is concealing something. If they can’t do that based on the information supplied and what the driver says then they cannot take action. In the above you would finish somewhere in one vehicle and resume from the same place in another, nothing wrong with that.

delboytwo:
2 and also the truck could be digital tacho and you don’t put an end place on it just the country you end your shift and start shift

Which would give you more opportunity to be flexible. :wink:

delboytwo:
3 so the truck you left at the services was an analogue tacho and the over was digital again how would you prove you did not go back to depot

You don’t have to prove anything, it’s up to them to prove you didn’t do what you are claiming.

delboytwo:
4 i know that you can right on the back to say why but would that be accepted as proof

You don’t need to write anything on the back, again you don’t need to prove anything you just need to fill in the charts correctly, or use digi tacho chart correctly.

116

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic wrote:

It can move if the company want to use it, they’ll just have to return it, or another vehicle, for the driver to resume work from that place. Or even collect the driver in a car or van when he resumes work.

i have been reading all these posts and would like to ask

1 if you have run out of time and you say get a lift home or a van to go home and you come back to the truck and the truck as been swapped over when you put you tacho in the mileage will be different and the reg will be different so how can a driver prove that he did not go back to the depot as is last tacho is different from the one in the tacho now

The driver doesn’t have to prove anything, it is up to the enforcement authorities to prove the driver is concealing something. If they can’t do that based on the information supplied and what the driver says then they cannot take action. In the above you would finish somewhere in one vehicle and resume from the same place in another, nothing wrong with that.

delboytwo:
2 and also the truck could be digital tacho and you don’t put an end place on it just the country you end your shift and start shift

Which would give you more opportunity to be flexible. :wink:

delboytwo:
3 so the truck you left at the services was an analogue tacho and the over was digital again how would you prove you did not go back to depot

You don’t have to prove anything, it’s up to them to prove you didn’t do what you are claiming.

delboytwo:
4 i know that you can right on the back to say why but would that be accepted as proof

You don’t need to write anything on the back, again you don’t need to prove anything you just need to fill in the charts correctly, or use digi tacho chart correctly.

thanks for that Coffeeholic

del

117

a lot of years ago i finished a 15 hour stint parked up and girlfriend met me ,we were in the bunk about 3 hours all active is that ilegall being that i was in the truck

118

fuse:
a lot of years ago i finished a 15 hour stint parked up and girlfriend met me ,we were in the bunk about 3 hours all active is that ilegall being that i was in the truck

Doing ‘Deliveries’ when on a daily rest period is illegal :unamused: :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

119

ROG:
Doing ‘Deliveries’ when on a daily rest period is illegal :unamused: :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

Yes ROG, but this would count as a different kind of “other” work, leaving fuse in the clear. :grimacing:

120

dieseldave:

ROG:
Doing ‘Deliveries’ when on a daily rest period is illegal :unamused: :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

Yes ROG, but this would count as a different kind of “other” work, leaving fuse in the clear. :grimacing:

But it gives a whole new meaning to the phrase blowing a fuse. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: :smiley: