Occasionally I and a group of others drive 7.5T vehicles voluntarily for a charitable organisation which does not hold an operators license.
These vehicles are normally hired in for the period required. Usually no more than 4 days.
The charitable organisation hire out their own equipment to third parties and this equipment is transported with the vehicles. The equipment is then assembled and dismantled by us the volunteers. The money received for these hires is used to develop the charity. We receive no money except for expenses for our time.
In the past we have had no problems hiring the 7.5T vehicles but now the hire companies are asking for evidence of having an operators license.
Basically,
Do the charitable organisation need an operators license to operate a vehicle which is hired in occasionally (no more than 10 times a year)?
As voluntary drivers for a charity how do the tacho rules apply to us?
I realise that any answers i get on here should not be taken as gospel but any advice would be great.
mrpj:
The operator licence is for the carriage of goods for commercial purposes which is not the case here so IMO it is not required in this case.
I would Disagree…
The charitable organisation hire out their own equipment to third parties
This would in my opinion be a commercial transaction, so at very least a restricted O licence would be required
I would ring up your local Traffic Area Office and ask them to confirm either way in writing…
I spoke to the TAO and they weren’t much help to be honest. The person I spoke to couldn’t confirm either way.
I will probably give them a ring again and see if I have any more luck.
The tachograph regs aren’t so much of an issue. Generally if we go a long distance 2 people split the driving . The only problem is when we get to site and the vehicle needs moved to wherever the equipment is going (its not always in one place) any one of a group of people could be moving it. Not sure how this stands with the regs.
As it’s for a registered charity what about lending the equipment for free and receiving a charitable donation instead? This would mean, in theory, no money is exchanged regarding the use of vehicles.
Whether an O-Licence is required or not is an interesting one. Basically it comes down to “carrying goods in connection with a trade or business.” If the charity receive something, anything, for the goods being transported then an O-licence will be required for any vehicle with a gvw of greater than 3 500kg. Although the actual case involved PSV’s; a hotel chain that carried people on a mini coach, the cost of which was included in the room rate, were deemed to be receiving a ‘consideration’ for the people being on the coach and therefore the operation required a licence. Whatever you call the payment, for example; a donation, it is still a payment, there is nothing in the regs to say the organisation has to make a profit. If the goods are not being delivered on behalf of a third party then a Restriced licence will suffice.
Tachographs are much easier; a motor vehicle, in free circulation (on a road) with a permitted gross weight exceeding 3 500 kg, carrying goods, whether loaded or not = tachograph required. There is nothing in the legislation that requires hire and reward before tachographs require to be used. Articles 4 & 13 of 3820/85 give the exemptions from tacho use throughout Europe and on journies within the UK. What you have described doesn’t appear to come under either article.
In the PSV case (Swallow Hotels if I remember correctly,) “Hire & Reward” was deemed to mean does the use/non use of the vehicle effect profit.
It was not so much that the charge was accounted for but more that the non use of the vehicle would have increased profit & thus it’s use & non use, was deemed to have an effect on profit.
It was the fact they (The VOSA, ) could prove the vehicle generated a provable income in the case of it not being used that resulted in the conviction, as the hotel chain was saying it’s free & not always used.
In the Hotel case it was the fact they were offering it’s use, not that they had been caught using it, or that’s how I understand it.
But it has effected the way that “Hire & Reward” is now defined.
I was talking to someone at the VOSA about a situation my wife (a nurse,) found herself in sometime ago, she was concerned at what was happening where she worked (as a manager) at the time & was being told by me, you are right they are wrong & by a so called Transport Manager “It’s legal” & I eventually got told to shut by their solicitors.
So I phoned & checked that what I knew to be right was & he was talking about this case & how it has defined “Hire & Reward” more clearly.
As my wifes situation was very similar I would suggest the vehicles need an O Licence, as they are used for an activity which is basically forms part of the fund raising activity of your organisation.
It may be worth reminding them, that if they do need an O Licence than the vehicles are liable for confiscation, regardless of who they belong to, if they don’t have one.
You will need:
Money.
An Operating Centre.
An Advert in the local paper with details of you intended use of the operating centre.
A maintenance agreement.
Someone in your employment that holds a CPC.
More money.
Coffeeholic:
You will need:
Money.
Think we’ve got that
An Operating Centre.
Have one of those but neighbours may complain
An Advert in the local paper with details of you intended use of the operating centre.
A maintenance agreement.
Vehicles are only hired in when required, would we still need this?
Someone in your employment* that holds a CPC.
Is there a specific level required?
More money.
Go for the LR option, be cheaper and easier.
The work that we do is erecting and dismantling traditional marquees as a fundraiser for the Scout Association. None of us is employed by the Association to do this we are all volunteers, we do get expenses and lots of weekends away in different parts of the country.
Coffeeholic wrote:
You will need:
Money.
Think we’ve got that
cannot find the paper with the exact amounts on now, but it is some thousands for the first vehicle and approx half that for each subsequent vehicle. There is the initial application fee, about £240. The grant fee again about £240 (and payable every 5 years to renew the licence) then the vehicle fee, about £40 each vehicle per year.
An Operating Centre.
Have one of those but neighbours may complain
Explain to them nicely that you’re not trying to outdo Eddie Stobart. Tell them that vehicle will only be parked there for short periods. Remember to be an operating centre it must be capable of holding the maximum number of vehicles specified on the licence. Also vehicles must be able to turn around inside the centre so that they can enter and leave in forward gear.
An Advert in the local paper with details of you intended use of the operating centre.
A maintenance agreement.
Vehicles are only hired in when required, would we still need this?
Make it very clear on the application form that you will only hire vehicles in for short periods. Require the hirer to provide you with copies of the regular maintenance inspection sheets showing the checks have been done. Be very careful, if they haven’t done the checks and faults are found at the roadside, you will be responsible.
Someone in your employment* that holds a CPC.
Not required if you only carry the associations own gear and get a Restricted licence. However, it is usually a good idea to have a ‘competant person’ around. Many restricted operators haven’t got a clue what they are doing or why, then wonder why the man from VOSA has such a field day when he calls around.
Is there a specific level required?
More money.
Go for the LR option, be cheaper and easier.
Very wise words, just remember to have the tacho installed, use it and don’t forget anybody that drives with the trailer on the back must have B+E licence.
The work that we do is erecting and dismantling traditional marquees as a fundraiser for the Scout Association. None of us is employed by the Association to do this we are all volunteers, we do get expenses and lots of weekends away in different parts of the country.
cannot find the paper with the exact amounts on now, but it is some thousands for the first vehicle and approx half that for each subsequent vehicle.
After a search of the back room I’ve found the paper; for a restricted licence the figures are; £ 3100 for the first vehicle and £ 1700 for each subsequent vehicle. For National and International licences the figures given by ianyng are correct. If you send bank statements (last 3 months required) or letters of credit to the TC they have to be originals. A limited company with a turnover greater than 5 million can send audited accounts, provided they are signed off and less than 18 months old
Not too sure if they’d qualify for a restricted licence or not.
Restricted means delivering your own products.
I think a call to the relevant VOSA office would be the best plan.
It does seem a bit much if you need a full licence for charity work - but then again with all the rules and regs, I’m not surprised.
The charitable organisation hire out their own equipment to third parties and this equipment is transported with the vehicles. The equipment is then assembled and dismantled by us the volunteers. The money received for these hires is used to develop the charity.
IMHO; the equipment that is being hired out belongs to the charity. As they are not doing hire and reward; carrying goods for a third party, the charity requires a Restricted licence.
ianyng:
Not too sure if they’d qualify for a restricted licence or not.
Restricted means delivering your own products.
I think a call to the relevant VOSA office would be the best plan.
It does seem a bit much if you need a full licence for charity work - but then again with all the rules and regs, I’m not surprised.
I’ve spoken with VOSA already and am planning to go back in to their local offfice to get some finer details ironed out when I get time.
The one bit which I haven’t got my head round is how it all works when we only hire in the vehicles, we don’t and never will own our own 7.5T vehicle.
