Operator Licence & Tacho

[krankee]

snab:
The one bit which I haven’t got my head round is how it all works when we only hire in the vehicles, we don’t and never will own our own 7.5T vehicle.

Then it will surpise you to learn that some of the biggest companies on our roads do not OWN any vehicles. They are ALL on leasing contracts. In effect, hired. Even the cars usd by the managerial and sales staff are leased.

Have you enquired as to whether the Scout Association already holds an O.L. as an organisation?

Another route could be to move away from goods vehicles. A large car and trailer. Something like a big old Merc estate? You would have to carefully check the towing weights and tyre loadings.

[snab]

Krankee:
Have you enquired as to whether the Scout Association already holds an O.L. as an organisation?

Another route could be to move away from goods vehicles. A large car and trailer. Something like a big old Merc estate? You would have to carefully check the towing weights and tyre loadings.

I haven’t enquired, hadn’t even thought about it.
We certainly don’t have one at Scottish Headquarters as thats who we do the marquees for.

However at national HQ in London they have a Mobile Display Unit, don’t know whether it is 7.5T or over but it certainly is no smaller than a 7.5T. This would require a restricted license? Am I right.

We are also looking into a Landrover (with tacho) and 18ft tri axle trailer as a substitute. Which should allow us to carry the equipment. That option comes in at around £25000 - £30000 for the combination

[krankee]

Specially fitted exhibition vehicles are exempt from tacho regs, and I would also assume, O.L., but I’m not sure on that bit.

[geebee45]

snab said;

The one bit which I haven’t got my head round is how it all works when we only hire in the vehicles, we don’t and never will own our own 7.5T vehicle.

You don’t have to ‘own’ the vehicle, just have it lawfully in your possession eg; contract hire, spot hire or lease. It doesn’t matter who ‘owns’ the vehicle, it is the ‘user’ that requires an operators licence.

snab also said:

We are also looking into a Landrover (with tacho) and 18ft tri axle trailer as a substitute. Which should allow us to carry the equipment. That option comes in at around £25000 - £30000 for the combination

sounds like an expensive way of avoiding an operator licence, although it would give you a vehicle you could use at any time.

Krankee said;

Specially fitted exhibition vehicles are exempt from tacho regs, and I would also assume, O.L., but I’m not sure on that bit.

The tacho exempt bit is true for vehicles which are specially fitted as exhibition vehicles. The exemption ONLY applies to journies within the UK. However, the vehicle still requires an operators licence.

[krankee]

geebee45:
However, the vehicle still requires an operators licence.

So, assuming Head Office, has, or can get, spare capacity on their Op Licence, a vehicle can be hired in as and when required.

[snab]

Krankee:

geebee45:
However, the vehicle still requires an operators licence.

So, assuming Head Office, has, or can get, spare capacity on their Op Licence, a vehicle can be hired in as and when required.

Oh well back to square one. HQ does not have an ops license. they own the MDU but it is operated by exel.

[geebee45]

Krankee:

geebee45:
However, the vehicle still requires an operators licence.

So, assuming Head Office, has, or can get, spare capacity on their Op Licence, a vehicle can be hired in as and when required.

Short answer is yes. However, head office would have to be in the same traffic area as the location of the Operating Centre. For example, if head office in Dover and Op Cntr in Maidstone all is well as both are in South Eastern Traffic Area. If Head Office in Dover and Op Cntr in Nottingham then the Head Office would have to apply for a North Eastern licence as that area covers Nottingham. There are rumours that this system will change in that the location of the Head Office will become the licence address and all other locations will be Op Cntrs attached to that licence. But don’t ask when this is likely to happen, if ever, this proposal is far too logical.

[krankee]

snab:
Oh well back to square one. HQ does not have an ops license. they own the MDU but it is operated by exel.

Don’t be too hasty. Try thinking ‘outside the box’

HQ owns the vehicle but it is operated by Exel? What exactly does that mean?

I presume that Exel provide parking for the vehicle and {probably) arrange for it to be delivered to sites and then collected. A form of ‘charitable support’.

Do you not have any members or former members that are now in Transport that could ‘sponsor’ or ‘subsidise’ your activities, having invoices for the vehicle processed through ‘their’ company? It’s perhaps s t r e t c h i n g the rules slightly, but I can’t see VOSA wanting to take much interest unless you are unfairly taking business away from someone whose income relies significantly on the type of work that you undertake.

GeeBee. Valid point, but in this instance the vehicle is not stored at an Op Centre. It is either ‘off-hire’ or in use on site. Hence the Op Centre could legitimately be 600 miles away with the invoices being processed through HQ.

If an ‘owned’ vehicle suffers a major breakdown in a distant Traffic Area to the Op Centre, and there is a ‘need’ to hire a vehicle to complete deliveries, then it can be acquired from a hirer in any Traffic Area location. And if it’s use was for ‘tramping’, and only required for a limited number of days, the vehicle might never ‘see’ the Op Centre.

[snab]

Krankee:

snab:
Oh well back to square one. HQ does not have an ops license. they own the MDU but it is operated by exel.

Don’t be too hasty. Try thinking ‘outside the box’

HQ owns the vehicle but it is operated by Exel? What exactly does that mean?
The info I got was that HQ own the vehicle but no member of the association volunteer or paid member drive it. The driving is done by exel staff, presumably they service it and garage it.
I presume that Exel provide parking for the vehicle and {probably) arrange for it to be delivered to sites and then collected. A form of ‘charitable support’.
Probably, more likely that HQ pay for their services
Do you not have any members or former members that are now in Transport that could ‘sponsor’ or ‘subsidise’ your activities, having invoices for the vehicle processed through ‘their’ company? It’s perhaps s t r e t c h i n g the rules slightly, but I can’t see VOSA wanting to take much interest unless you are unfairly taking business away from someone whose income relies significantly on the type of work that you undertake.
We did think of approaching a couple of companies we know of and have relationships with, we’ve used them to carry stuff for us and they generally charge us less than the going rate. The only thing putting us off was that if someone gets caught doing something they shouldn’t with the vehicle it could jeopardise the company’s license.

GeeBee. Valid point, but in this instance the vehicle is not stored at an Op Centre. It is either ‘off-hire’ or in use on site. Hence the Op Centre could legitimately be 600 miles away with the invoices being processed through HQ.
The only problem with this is that Scottish HQ is a separate entity from National HQ as such. All our financial dealings are completely separate from NHQ, the only connection is an annual insurance payment.
If an ‘owned’ vehicle suffers a major breakdown in a distant Traffic Area to the Op Centre, and there is a ‘need’ to hire a vehicle to complete deliveries, then it can be acquired from a hirer in any Traffic Area location. And if it’s use was for ‘tramping’, and only required for a limited number of days, the vehicle might never ‘see’ the Op Centre.

[snab]

Spoke to VOSA again today.

Information as follows

We need a restricted license to carry our own goods for hire and reward.
No need for CPC holder.
We should apply for a license 2 vehicles incase we need to hire a second one in.
We don’t need to register these vehicles as they will only be on short term hire (less than a month)

Initial application fee £215
If license is granted £336 for 5 years
License per vehicle for 5 years £180

Company we hire from will cover maintenance contract.

All we need after that is more people who can drive 7.5T+. Class 2 tests required.
And more information about tachograph laws and these new digi tacho cards.

Does this all look OK or do you think I have missed something. I cannot see where the figures of £3000 etc were coming from. Is that including taxing the vehicle?

[geebee45]

Snab,
good to see you’re getting somewhere with all this, but it has taken a time. Hopefully the following will help;

We should apply for a license 2 vehicles in case we need to hire a second one in.

Sensible advice, at present if you hire a vehicle in and it breaks down it will still be in your possession. If you then hire another vehicle to ‘cover’ the broken one you have just exceeded your authorisation (if you only have one vehicle authorised) and commit an offence. OK this applies more to organisations that buy a vehicle, or long term hire, but bearing in mind the high profile of the operator in this case wouldn’t imagine they’d want too many Court appearances situation may change if Scn 264 of Transport Act 2000 ever gets promulgated. Then the ‘grace period,’ presently one calendar month goes and all vehicles will have to be specified on a licence.

All we need after that is more people who can drive 7.5T+. Class 2 tests required

Not sure I understand why you need people with Class 2 licences the old term for Category C, a rigid vehicle with more than 2 axles. So long as drivers have a valid C1 licence that is all that’s required for driving a vehicle greater than 3 500kg but equal to or less than 7 500kg

And more information about tachograph laws and these new digi tacho cards.

Tacho laws, ask the nice people at your local VOSA will come and talk to you about the Regulations, many Traffic Examiners are only too happy to try and help people who ask. Digital Tachos are a bit of an unknown quantity as yet. The EU are still trying to decide on the mandatory fitment date, but late March 2006 is a possible. Don’t worry, this only effects new vehicles, but on the other hand, hire fleets tend to be newer and vehicle manufacturers are starting to fit Digital now. Have a word with the hire company and inform them that you can only cope with analogue tacho equipped vehicles and they should not supply you with Digital vehicles. There is no requirement to change analogue to digital, unless special circumstances are met. Just be aware that if you take a Digital vehicle out and do not use a drivers’ card you commit an offence. Also the Vehicle Unit will record the journey and store the details for at least 12 months. Whilst it cannot show who was driving, expect VOSA / Police to be very interested should they download the vehicle data and find unallocated driving.

I cannot see where the figures of £3000 etc were coming from. Is that including taxing the vehicle?

The figure is the amount of financal reserve you require to satisfy the Traffic Commissioner that you can operate an HGV. It is there to show that you can afford the running costs of the vehicle and that you won’t scrimp on maintenance to afford all the other bills, eg; wages, lighting, heating, running the company Jag etc. They may not all apply to you, but the legislation says you will have the money or no licence to operate.

We need a restricted license to carry our own goods for hire and reward.

Just to be picky, you are carrying your associations own goods in connection with a trade or business carried on by them. You are not carrying for hire and reward, that, in transport terms, would involve you saying to another person / company, I’ll take your goods from your factory and deliver them to your customer and it will cost you £X. You are not doing that. Be really careful with this difference because Restricted licence holders cannot do hire and reward. If you get pulled over and mention hire and reward you will have a very interesting day

After all that, you have a PM

[snab]

geebee45:

All we need after that is more people who can drive 7.5T+. Class 2 tests required

Not sure I understand why you need people with Class 2 licences the old term for Category C, a rigid vehicle with more than 2 axles. So long as drivers have a valid C1 licence that is all that’s required for driving a vehicle greater than 3 500kg but equal to or less than 7 500kg

Some of us have held licenses since before 1997. Some have not. For these people to drive our vehicles they need C1 entitlement as you quite rightly say. All the training places I have looked at either only do C training or C1 training costs the same as C. So it is easier to get people through C training. We have in the past had an 18T on loan for a weekend and only had one or two who can drive it. If more people had C entitlement then I can stay at home more.

[snab]

Latest update

Official line from VOSA and Scottish Traffic Office after letter pulling heart strings and pleading our case for an exemption is that we cannot operate without an O License.

Our Chief Executive (who is pretty good on the legal bits and bobs for anything) has been through all the documentation and decided that to get an O License and continue operating is a legal minefield. TBH I agree with him.

Drivers hours
Tacho training
Other work
Rest periods

Basically keeping within the law could prove to be very difficult and when the individuals involved don’t get paid to do marquees its not worth the grief of possible court action or whatever.

We’re going down the road of smaller hires at the moment <3.5T vehicles which restricts us greatly but we are loooking at other options.

Any useful suggestions will be greatly appreciated. However I must say that no amount of persuasion from bods here will change the mind of the CE.