Onother question

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
So does that infer that a 3 hour BREAK cannot be used as part of a reduced daily rest because the vehicle is not stationary

Break and Rest are two different beasts. You cannot take Rest in a moving vehicle and you must be free to dispose of your time as you wish. Being stuck in the seat of a moving vehicle doesn’t really give too many options to dispose of your time.

Or is there no such thing as a 3 + 9 non-reduced daily rest in double manning due to the extension to 30 hours

There would be if they fit it into the 24-hour period which begins when they start work but not if they use the option to extend their finish time beyond 15 hours from when they started.

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
Start 0600 both do different things till 0700 which is allowed for the first hour only - after that both drivers must stay together

Not necessarily. One driver could have several second drivers during the period but then really only driver 1 could work to double manning rules. It doesn’t have to be the same pair of drivers for the entire journey but if one driver is working more than 15 hours and claiming double man rules then he must be accompanied for all but the first hour of his shift.

For example.

Drivers 1 and 2 start work at 06:00 Driver 1 is a Southerner and Driver 2 a Northerner.

06:00 - 06:30 Other Work

Leave Southern Depot

06:30 - 11:00 Driver 2 drives, Driver 1 on break.

11:00 - 11:05 swapping cards

11:05 - 15:00 Driver 1 drives, Driver 2 on break.

Arrive Northern Depot

Driver 2 clocks off and goes home. Shift of just over 9 hours - Single manned rules.

Driver 3 joins Driver 1, Driver 3 is a Southerner.

Swap trailers

15:30 Depart Northern depot

15:30 - 19:30 Driver 3 drives, Driver 1 on break

19:30 -19:35, swapping cards

19:35 - 23:35 Driver 1 drives, Driver 3 on break

Arrive back at Southern Depot, roads were quieter so southbound journey was a little quicker than the northbound.

00:00 Both Drivers clock off and go home

Driver 3 shift of 9 hours - Single manned rules

Driver 1 shift of 18 hours - Double manned rules.

All 3 drivers legal.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
you may drive for the max hour only twice in a week so IMO you would be able to do 2 double man shifts in a week but the rest of the time you would both have to revert back to standard hours

A double manned shift doesn’t have to contain 20 hours driving, or even be 21 hours long so you can do more than 2 in a week. Even if a driver has done 2 double manned shifts where he drove for more than 9 hours in each he can still work under double manned rules, he would just have to be limited to 9 hours driving.

[rog]

Thanks Neil & Del

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
you may drive for the max hour only twice in a week so IMO you would be able to do 2 double man shifts in a week but the rest of the time you would both have to revert back to standard hours

A double manned shift doesn’t have to contain 20 hours driving, or even be 21 hours long so you can do more than 2 in a week. Even if a driver has done 2 double manned shifts where he drove for more than 9 hours in each he can still work under double manned rules, he would just have to be limited to 9 hours driving.

Hi Coffeeholic

i have done 5 shifts as double maned in a week but only drove six hours each night trunking the the run took 12 hours with one hour turn around,

i used the idea of two per week as a max if you did the full two double man runs rest of week would have to be on your own if you get what i mean

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
i used the idea of two per week as a max if you did the full two double man runs rest of week would have to be on your own if you get what i mean

I don’t get what you mean. Just because you have done 2x21 hour shifts with 10 hours driving in both doesn’t mean you could only do single manning for the rest of the week. Just as when a single driver has use both his 10 hour drives for the week he is limited to 9 hours so is the driver working to double manned rules.

From resuming work after a weekly rest period you have a maximum of 144 hours before you must start your next weekly rest and provided you take the correct daily rest periods and do not exceed the number of allowed 10 hour driving days, which if the 144 hours straddles 2 fixed weeks could be 4x10 hour driving periods, then you can squeeze in as many double manned shifts as possible between the weekly rest periods.

Double manned shifts where both drivers drive in excess of 9 hours are likely to be rare. By the time you take vehicle checks, fuelling, loading/unloading or trailer swapping, toilet breaks, end of shift stuff, possibly ferry or train crossings, etc, from the 21 hours available there would not likely be enough hours left for making use of maximum driving time. In all the double manned shifts I ever did, including runs such as Slough - Copenhagen, Slough - Munich and Slough - Milan, each done in one shift, I never did one were either driver went over 9 hours driving and they were done in the days when you could work 22 hours out of 30.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
i used the idea of two per week as a max if you did the full two double man runs rest of week would have to be on your own if you get what i mean

I don’t get what you mean. Just because you have done 2x21 hour shifts with 10 hours driving in both doesn’t mean you could only do single manning for the rest of the week. Just as when a single driver has use both his 10 hour drives for the week he is limited to 9 hours so is the driver working to double manned rules.

From resuming work after a weekly rest period you have a maximum of 144 hours before you must start your next weekly rest and provided you take the correct daily rest periods and do not exceed the number of allowed 10 hour driving days, which if the 144 hours straddles 2 fixed weeks could be 4x10 hour driving periods, then you can squeeze in as many double manned shifts as possible between the weekly rest periods.

Double manned shifts where both drivers drive in excess of 9 hours are likely to be rare. By the time you take vehicle checks, fuelling, loading/unloading or trailer swapping, toilet breaks, end of shift stuff, possibly ferry or train crossings, etc, from the 21 hours available there would not likely be enough hours left for making use of maximum driving time. In all the double manned shifts I ever did, including runs such as Slough - Copenhagen, Slough - Munich and Slough - Milan, each done in one shift, I never did one were either driver went over 9 hours driving and they were done in the days when you could work 22 hours out of 30.

I will try to explain my reasoning

this is what i said in an earlier post

you may drive for the max hour only twice in a week so IMO you would be able to do 2 double man shifts in a week but the rest of the time you would both have to revert back to standard hours

I do understand that you can do more in a week but and i do agree that you may never drive your full hours a week,

But this is an hypothetical explanation of double manning we all know that you can only drive 2x10 hours.

so if you look at my quote you will see, that you can only do 2 full double man shifts in a week as you would not have any more 10 hour duties left and then the rest of the time you would have to stick to your normal hours for the rest of that week

and as you say you could do 4 full shifts between rests straddles 2 fixed weeks could be 4x10 but this is still only two full shifts a week

hope this is a bit more clearer

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
so if you look at my quote you will see, that you can only do 2 full double man shifts in a week as you would not have any more 10 hour duties left and then the rest of the time you would have to stick to your normal hours for the rest of that week

A full double manned shift is 21 hours regardless of the amount of driving in the shift. You seem to be saying a double manned team can only do the full 21 hours when they both have 10 hour drives available, that is not correct. They could do a 21 hour shift and do nowhere near 20 hours driving.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
so if you look at my quote you will see, that you can only do 2 full double man shifts in a week as you would not have any more 10 hour duties left and then the rest of the time you would have to stick to your normal hours for the rest of that week

A full double manned shift is 21 hours regardless of the amount of driving in the shift. You seem to be saying a double manned team can only do the full 21 hours when they both have 10 hour drives available, that is not correct. They could do a 21 hour shift and do nowhere near 20 hours driving.

that’s right you can only do two full(gv 262 page 17)shifts (taking the full hours that are available to two drivers)

you can do 4 30 hours in a 144 hour period in a fixed week but only two would be full shifts IE max driving

my head hurts

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
that’s right you can only do two full(gv 262 page 17)shifts (taking the full hours that are available to two drivers)

A shift is the time between clocking on and clocking off, not the amount of driving time done, or available, in the shift. Earlier you said after doing 2 x full shifts a driver would have to revert to single manned rules but looking at it either your way of calculating a full shift or the normal way this isn’t the case.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
that’s right you can only do two full(gv 262 page 17)shifts (taking the full hours that are available to two drivers)

A shift is the time between clocking on and clocking off, not the amount of driving time done, or available, in the shift. Earlier you said after doing 2 x full shifts a driver would have to revert to single manned rules but looking at it either your way of calculating a full shift or the normal way this isn’t the case.

i know you can do 6 shifts of 21 hours a week but only to of them can be the max driving
i know you may never do you full hours a shift but sometimes things happen

IMO this is what i can do if my boss give me a job and i had to have a co driver for the run, run A is 19 hours driving, run B is 12 hours driving

i can only do 2 run A’s in the week
i can do 6 run B’s in a week
or i can do 2 run A’s and 4 run B’s

[rog]

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
that’s right you can only do two full(gv 262 page 17)shifts (taking the full hours that are available to two drivers)

A shift is the time between clocking on and clocking off, not the amount of driving time done, or available, in the shift. Earlier you said after doing 2 x full shifts a driver would have to revert to single manned rules but looking at it either your way of calculating a full shift or the normal way this isn’t the case.

i know you can do 6 shifts of 21 hours a week but only to of them can be the max driving
i know you may never do you full hours a shift but sometimes things happen

IMO this is what i can do if my boss give me a job and i had to have a co driver for the run, run A is 19 hours driving, run B is 12 hours driving

i can only do 2 run A’s in the week
i can do 6 run B’s in a week
or i can do 2 run A’s and 4 run B’s

Why only 2 run 'A’s - if both drivers use a 10 hour driving day on say, alternate days, then that would mean 4 run 'A’s could be done - or am I missing something

[delboytwo]

ROG:

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
that’s right you can only do two full(gv 262 page 17)shifts (taking the full hours that are available to two drivers)

A shift is the time between clocking on and clocking off, not the amount of driving time done, or available, in the shift. Earlier you said after doing 2 x full shifts a driver would have to revert to single manned rules but looking at it either your way of calculating a full shift or the normal way this isn’t the case.

i know you can do 6 shifts of 21 hours a week but only to of them can be the max driving
i know you may never do you full hours a shift but sometimes things happen

IMO this is what i can do if my boss give me a job and i had to have a co driver for the run, run A is 19 hours driving, run B is 12 hours driving

i can only do 2 run A’s in the week
i can do 6 run B’s in a week
or i can do 2 run A’s and 4 run B’s

Why only 2 run 'A’s - if both drivers use a 10 hour driving day on say, alternate days, then that would mean 4 run 'A’s could be done - or am I missing something

munber of 10 hour driving shifts a driver can do in a week Rog

[rog]

delboytwo:

ROG:

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
that’s right you can only do two full(gv 262 page 17)shifts (taking the full hours that are available to two drivers)

A shift is the time between clocking on and clocking off, not the amount of driving time done, or available, in the shift. Earlier you said after doing 2 x full shifts a driver would have to revert to single manned rules but looking at it either your way of calculating a full shift or the normal way this isn’t the case.

i know you can do 6 shifts of 21 hours a week but only to of them can be the max driving
i know you may never do you full hours a shift but sometimes things happen

IMO this is what i can do if my boss give me a job and i had to have a co driver for the run, run A is 19 hours driving, run B is 12 hours driving

i can only do 2 run A’s in the week
i can do 6 run B’s in a week
or i can do 2 run A’s and 4 run B’s

Why only 2 run 'A’s - if both drivers use a 10 hour driving day on say, alternate days, then that would mean 4 run 'A’s could be done - or am I missing something

munber of 10 hour driving shifts a driver can do in a week Rog

I know - but if this is for double manning then 4 X 19 hour driving days can be done (2 drivers, 4 days @ 19 hours driving = 2 X 10 hour days each?) - or have I got the wrong end of the stick

[delboytwo]

Hi Rog

I know - but if this is for double manning then 4 X 19 hour driving days can be done (2 drivers, 4 days @ 19 hours driving = 2 X 10 hour days each?) - or have I got the wrong end of the stick

all i am trying to get across is the you can only do two 10 hour drives a week,
thats all

[rog]

delboytwo:
Hi Rog

I know - but if this is for double manning then 4 X 19 hour driving days can be done (2 drivers, 4 days @ 19 hours driving = 2 X 10 hour days each?) - or have I got the wrong end of the stick

all i am trying to get across is the you can only do two 10 hour drives a week,
thats all

Ah - I thought this was to do with double manning AND the 10 hours

[delboytwo]

ROG:

delboytwo:
Hi Rog

I know - but if this is for double manning then 4 X 19 hour driving days can be done (2 drivers, 4 days @ 19 hours driving = 2 X 10 hour days each?) - or have I got the wrong end of the stick

all i am trying to get across is the you can only do two 10 hour drives a week,
thats all

Ah - I thought this was to do with double manning AND the 10 hours

yes it is about double manning or single manned you can only do two 10 hours drives in a fixed week

[delboytwo]

I am accepting defeat in this as it seams that what i say as not come a cross,

I know that in double manned ops you may never drive you full hours or in fact work the full 21 hour shift, all i am saying is that A driver can only do two 10 hour max drives in a fixed week .

[rog]

delboytwo:
I am accepting defeat in this as it seams that what i say as not come a cross,

I know that in double manned ops you may never drive you full hours or in fact work the full 21 hour shift, all i am saying is that A driver can only do two 10 hour max drives in a fixed week .

TRUE

But I thought you were on about how many 19 hour driving shifts could be done using the double manning rules - if both drivers still had 2 X 10 hour driving days available of course

[delboytwo]

ROG:

delboytwo:
I am accepting defeat in this as it seams that what i say as not come a cross,

I know that in double manned ops you may never drive you full hours or in fact work the full 21 hour shift, all i am saying is that A driver can only do two 10 hour max drives in a fixed week .

TRUE

But I thought you were on about how many 19 hour driving shifts could be done using the double manning rules

read the other two pages of post an you mite understand that was an example of my thinking to explian the two 10 shift for one driver