After Ukraine was violated…
A Ukrainian observer in a forward position gives co-ordinates to his artillery team.
reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVide … &context=3
My guess is, 200 metres away, the building is destroyed. Left a bit, right a bit…fire.
You gotta be ■■■■■■■ kiddin’ me!
If all sides, including NATO, don’t sit down and negotiate a settlement which recognises Russia’s concerns it could all go horribly wrong in the form of escalation very quick.
Or it’s all some kind of Machiavellian false flag operation bearing in mind the continuing western economic appeasement of Russian ally China adding to its strength every day.
Also the fact that Zalensky has been onside with that in the form of Ukrainian trade policy.
The fact is any fight with Russia and China can only end one way.There’s no place for WW1 type miscalculations and misplaced alliances in deciding if/when we need to go for WW3.
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac”. (George Orwell).
Harry Monk:
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac”. (George Orwell).
Ironically both Adolf’s and Stalin’s respective regimes were the direct result of us and France demonising the Kaiser and Germany as described by Orwell.
Carryfast:
Ironically both Adolf’s and Stalin’s respective regimes were the direct result of us and France demonising the Kaiser and Germany as described by Orwell.
Awesome! 
Do you not think that the invasion of x number of countries and the wholesale murder of six million Jews was not worth us “stepping in?”
Listening to part of Putin’s speech the other day.
It seems the spin he is putting on this war is that he is fighting against Naziism.
Ironic when you consider the parallels with Hitler and his war .
The liberation (as he sees it ) but in reality annexation, of former territories, the indiscriminate bombing, maybe even actually targeting, of civilian areas, the murder of civilians pow.s, ■■■■, the putting down and imprisoning of those who dare to speak out against his regime, the laws made to enable this.
Direct opposite politics in terms of extremes of left and right, between Communism and National Socialism, , but with the very same methods and tactics of warfare.
the maoster:
Carryfast:
Ironically both Adolf’s and Stalin’s respective regimes were the direct result of us and France demonising the Kaiser and Germany as described by Orwell.Awesome!
Did you actually read and understand my post.
What did the Kaiser have to do with the Holocaust.
Nor did we go to war against Germany in 1914 to stop any such Holocaust.
The Holocaust, like Stalin’s regime, was the predictable outcomes and effect of the equally predictable implosion of Russia and Germany.As a result of a war which us and France could have nipped in the bud instead of pouring petrol on a small local Balkan forest fire by rushing to join Russia against Germany.
Fast forward to present day Zalensky is the nuke armed Tsar and Putin the nuke armed Kaiser.Your solution like, Wallace’s now and Churchill’s then, is let’s join in and fuel the fight.
So you defeat Putin in favour of Zalensky and the NATO expansionism which Russia is pushing back against, what do you think will happen next.
Bearing in mind that our ‘trading partner’ China is ready to take advantage of the situation in the Pacific.At which point at best we are facing a conventional war on two fronts.Which at worse predictably goes nuclear either way especially if it looks like we’re winning which by definition is taken by Russia as a threat to its existence.As for China assuming we sink it’s navy and wipe out its air force in the Pacific who knows.
robroy:
Listening to part of Putin’s speech the other day.
It seems the spin he is putting on this war is that he is fighting against Naziism.
Ironic when you consider the parallels with Hitler and his war .
The liberation (as he sees it ) but in reality annexation, of former territories, the indiscriminate bombing, maybe even actually targeting, of civilian areas, the murder of civilians pow.s, ■■■■, the putting down and imprisoning of those who dare to speak out against his regime, the laws made to enable this.
Direct opposite politics in terms of extremes of left and right, between Communism and National Socialism, , but with the very same methods and tactics of warfare.
As a high ranking officer Putin was/is a loyal product of the old Communist Soviet Regime no different to all the rest of his ilk.
It is what it is.
So what do you think would have happened if JFKs response to the Cuban Missile crisis had been a stated intent to expand NATO influence and forces and stationing of NATO weapons systems into the WP states let alone the Ukraine.
Do you really think that Kruschev would have said that’s ok.
robroy:
Listening to part of Putin’s speech the other day.
It seems the spin he is putting on this war is that he is fighting against Naziism.
Ironic when you consider the parallels with Hitler and his war .
The liberation (as he sees it ) but in reality annexation, of former territories, the indiscriminate bombing, maybe even actually targeting, of civilian areas, the murder of civilians pow.s, ■■■■, the putting down and imprisoning of those who dare to speak out against his regime, the laws made to enable this.
Direct opposite politics in terms of extremes of left and right, between Communism and National Socialism, , but with the very same methods and tactics of warfare.
It’s a bit more nuanced than that Rob. The overwhelming majority of the population of eastern Ukraine identify themselves as Russian, speak Russian, and don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing. When Crimea held a referendum in 2014, 97% of the turnout voted for integration into the Russian Federation on an 83% turnout.
Harry Monk:
robroy:
Listening to part of Putin’s speech the other day.
It seems the spin he is putting on this war is that he is fighting against Naziism.
Ironic when you consider the parallels with Hitler and his war .
The liberation (as he sees it ) but in reality annexation, of former territories, the indiscriminate bombing, maybe even actually targeting, of civilian areas, the murder of civilians pow.s, ■■■■, the putting down and imprisoning of those who dare to speak out against his regime, the laws made to enable this.
Direct opposite politics in terms of extremes of left and right, between Communism and National Socialism, , but with the very same methods and tactics of warfare.It’s a bit more nuanced than that Rob. The overwhelming majority of the population of eastern Ukraine identify themselves as Russian, speak Russian, and don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing. When Crimea held a referendum in 2014, 97% of the turnout voted for integration into the Russian Federation on an 83% turnout.
That referendum was held in March 2014, after the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea.
Nothing at all “nuanced” about having an AK-47 pointed at you, and being told where to put your X on a ballot slip!
Harry Monk:
It’s a bit more nuanced than that Rob. The overwhelming majority of the population of eastern Ukraine identify themselves as Russian, speak Russian, and don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing. When Crimea held a referendum in 2014, 97% of the turnout voted for integration into the Russian Federation on an 83% turnout.
History is also on their side in that regard it’s no different to the Irish problem.
In which ironically Germany was arming De Valera’s forces but obviously no way of getting ships loaded with the needed decent artillery and machine guns past the British forces.Or without depleting its own defence arsenal.
It’s only matter of time until Russia realises that it has to put up a blockade against NATO arms supplies and logistics to Zalensky using force.At that point escalation between NATO and Russia becomes inevitable.
Also bearing in mind that every weapon supplied to Zalensky is one less in the arsenal of our own defence.
Although all moot when it’ll all go nuclear long before we get into any major conventional war between NATO and Russia.
Franglais:
Harry Monk:
robroy:
Listening to part of Putin’s speech the other day.
It seems the spin he is putting on this war is that he is fighting against Naziism.
Ironic when you consider the parallels with Hitler and his war .
The liberation (as he sees it ) but in reality annexation, of former territories, the indiscriminate bombing, maybe even actually targeting, of civilian areas, the murder of civilians pow.s, ■■■■, the putting down and imprisoning of those who dare to speak out against his regime, the laws made to enable this.
Direct opposite politics in terms of extremes of left and right, between Communism and National Socialism, , but with the very same methods and tactics of warfare.It’s a bit more nuanced than that Rob. The overwhelming majority of the population of eastern Ukraine identify themselves as Russian, speak Russian, and don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing. When Crimea held a referendum in 2014, 97% of the turnout voted for integration into the Russian Federation on an 83% turnout.
That referendum was held in March 2014, after the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea.
Nothing at all “nuanced” about having an AK-47 pointed at you, and being told where to put your X on a ballot slip!
Exactly what historical evidence says that Crimea isn’t Russia.Or even Ukraine itself.
The truth is Russians could justifiably see the argument as a threat to their country’s existence.
You’re saying that it’s worth us going to WW3 over it or even parking NATO tanks on Russia’s borders ?.
At this point any decent US president like JFK would have negotiated a partition of Ukraine and backing NATO’s conventional forces out of the old WP and Baltic buffers.
Instead of which we’ve got muppets like Biden and Macron etc ■■■■■■■ off Russia while feeding China.
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Harry Monk:
robroy:
Listening to part of Putin’s speech the other day.
It seems the spin he is putting on this war is that he is fighting against Naziism.
Ironic when you consider the parallels with Hitler and his war .
The liberation (as he sees it ) but in reality annexation, of former territories, the indiscriminate bombing, maybe even actually targeting, of civilian areas, the murder of civilians pow.s, ■■■■, the putting down and imprisoning of those who dare to speak out against his regime, the laws made to enable this.
Direct opposite politics in terms of extremes of left and right, between Communism and National Socialism, , but with the very same methods and tactics of warfare.It’s a bit more nuanced than that Rob. The overwhelming majority of the population of eastern Ukraine identify themselves as Russian, speak Russian, and don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing. When Crimea held a referendum in 2014, 97% of the turnout voted for integration into the Russian Federation on an 83% turnout.
That referendum was held in March 2014, after the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea.
Nothing at all “nuanced” about having an AK-47 pointed at you, and being told where to put your X on a ballot slip!Exactly what historical evidence says that Crimea isn’t Russia.Or even Ukraine itself.
The truth is Russians could justifiably see the argument as a threat to their country’s existence.
You’re saying that it’s worth us going to WW3 over it or even parking NATO tanks on Russia’s borders ?.
At this point any decent US president like JFK would have negotiated a partition of Ukraine and backing NATO’s conventional forces out of the old WP and Baltic buffers.
Instead of which we’ve got muppets like Biden and Macron etc ■■■■■■■ off Russia while feeding China.
“Historical claims take precedence” has been used by you before.
Since the Normans have a claim to England, prior to that of any current monarch, shouldn`t Macron park his tanks on your lawn? And would you be happy if Biden negotiated away your rose beds, but allowed you to keep the vegetable patch? That would at least provide you with the cabbages to talk to.
Why not let the Romans come back? Why not those previous to them?
The original settlers here are descendants of Lucy: let`s cede sovereignty to Ethiopia.
A third country ceding land from a invaded country is dispicable.
If Ukraine chooses to do so, in the interest of longer term peace, that is understandable.
Whether rewarding aggressors with gains is genuinely good for world stability is debatable, but it isn`t for us to tell others how to act, especially in their very trying times.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Franglais:
“Historical claims take precedence” has been used by you before.Since the Normans have a claim to England, prior to that of any current monarch, shouldn`t Macron park his tanks on your lawn? And would you be happy if Biden negotiated away your rose beds, but allowed you to keep the vegetable patch? That would at least provide you with the cabbages to talk to.
Why not let the Romans come back? Why not those previous to them?
The original settlers here are descendants of Lucy: let`s cede sovereignty to Ethiopia.A third country ceding land from a invaded country is dispicable.
If Ukraine chooses to do so, in the interest of longer term peace, that is understandable.
Whether rewarding aggressors with gains is genuinely good for world stability is debatable, but it isn`t for us to tell others how to act, especially in their very trying times.
The oxymoron contained in all that is laughable.
Our current monarchy owes its existence and line to William the Conqueror and his French hordes.
So exactly what are you basing your Ukrainian claim to Crimea on.
If/when push comes to shove Europe’s population will be running around like headless chickens saying how did we get here when it all kicks off.
The truth is no one here will want to die in WW3 so that what is clearly Russia gets usurped by Zalensky to move NATO even further into Russia’s turf.
A bit like how England and almost 1,000 years of its history was usurped by a bunch of Frog savages like the Conqueror and Longshanks Edward 1.Who then did the same to Scotland and Ireland.
Suggest you check out some real news away from Biden’s and Macron’s deluded propaganda machine.
Putin ( read Russian military ) are declaring and moving to the existencial threat level.
By implication that will include military action against NATO alliance arms shipments to Ukraine obviously before they get there. Backed by preemptive first use mobilisation of its strategic nuclear forces which is part of that Defcon level.
Feel free to escalate from there.
The only question is what took them so long and why waste all those resources and blood on Ukraine when Russia’s issue was always about NATO moving in and sabre rattling on Russia’s borders.
As it stands either Poland and/or London are in the firing line regarding a tactical and/or strategic nuclear strike respectively.
Assuming that Russia decides on the most obvious and easiest and most effective option to make NATO back down.
Bearing in mind that Putin is no less liable and vulnerable to Russian type retribution, if he shows weakness on the issue, than the lowest Russian army private or even civilian.
Franglais:
That referendum was held in March 2014, after the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea.
Nothing at all “nuanced” about having an AK-47 pointed at you, and being told where to put your X on a ballot slip!
This from Wiki…
Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people. Only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn’t accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people.[43]
In May 2014, Washington, D.C., pollster Pew Research published results of a survey that encompassed Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia, in which it was reported that 88% of Crimeans believed the government of Kyiv should officially recognize the result of Crimea’s referendum.[44]
Between December 12 and 25, 2014, Levada-Center carried out a survey of Crimea that was commissioned by John O’Loughlin, College Professor of Distinction and Professor of Geography at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and Gerard Toal (Gearóid Ó Tuathail), Professor of Government and International Affairs at Virginia Tech’s National Capital Region campus. The results of that survey were published by Open Democracy in March, 2015, and reported that, overall, 84% of Crimeans felt the choice to secede from Ukraine and accede to Russia was “Absolutely the right decision”, with the next-largest segment of respondents saying the decision to return to Russia was the “Generally right decision”.
But apart from anything we can find online to bolster our arguments, I’ve actually spent a lot of time in Ukraine. If you ask the vast majority of people living in Donetsk, Dniepropetrovsk, Zaporozhe etc about life in Ukraine, the general response is a laugh and the reply “Zdyes Rossiya” (It’s Russia here). This isn’t just a pet theory, I have heard this very statement on several occasions.
But let me turn this on its head. Why, in your opinion, has Russia launched this action against Ukraine?
Harry Monk:
Franglais:
That referendum was held in March 2014, after the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea.
Nothing at all “nuanced” about having an AK-47 pointed at you, and being told where to put your X on a ballot slip!This from Wiki…
Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people. Only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn’t accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people.[43]
In May 2014, Washington, D.C., pollster Pew Research published results of a survey that encompassed Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia, in which it was reported that 88% of Crimeans believed the government of Kyiv should officially recognize the result of Crimea’s referendum.[44]
Between December 12 and 25, 2014, Levada-Center carried out a survey of Crimea that was commissioned by John O’Loughlin, College Professor of Distinction and Professor of Geography at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and Gerard Toal (Gearóid Ó Tuathail), Professor of Government and International Affairs at Virginia Tech’s National Capital Region campus. The results of that survey were published by Open Democracy in March, 2015, and reported that, overall, 84% of Crimeans felt the choice to secede from Ukraine and accede to Russia was “Absolutely the right decision”, with the next-largest segment of respondents saying the decision to return to Russia was the “Generally right decision”.
But apart from anything we can find online to bolster our arguments, I’ve actually spent a lot of time in Ukraine. If you ask the vast majority of people living in Donetsk, Dniepropetrovsk, Zaporozhe etc about life in Ukraine, the general response is a laugh and the reply “Zdyes Rossiya” (It’s Russia here). This isn’t just a pet theory, I have heard this very statement on several occasions.
But let me turn this on its head. Why, in your opinion, has Russia launched this action against Ukraine?
Interesting post.
I will think, and answer later.
Harry Monk:
But let me turn this on its head. Why, in your opinion, has Russia launched this action against Ukraine?
Bearing in mind Russia’s pre invasion conditions, that NATO would guarantee never to accept Ukraine as a member and if I’ve got it right recognition of Crimea’s status as a Russian territory.
It’s clear that at that point a positive reaction from NATO and the US and EU, that they would not only accept those conditions but they would also take on board Russia’s concerns regarding NATO’s expansion into the previous Soviet buffer states and the issue of Eastern Ukraine and its Russian majority, would have more than cut it.
Having said that it’s equally obvious that ‘if’ and in the event of a joint Russian, Chinese, Pak and Iranian invasion of Europe Ukraine and Poland would be a vital route for it.
As always we were never going to win such a conventional war and attack anyway.
I’d also direct the same question, to Macron’s mouthpiece, of what Kruschev would have done, if Kennedy’s solution to the Cuban missile crisis had been a statement of intent, of taking back the WP and Baltic buffers and orchestrating the secession of Ukraine and moving NATO into them.
My bet is that none of us would be here now.
Harry Monk:
But let me turn this on its head. Why, in your opinion, has Russia launched this action against Ukraine?
It will come as no surpise that I don`t know why Putin has invaded Ukraine.
I can read his claims as well as anyone else, and find his rhetoric as believable as his assertions that many sports fans wearing identical tracksuits all decided to go to Crimea those years ago.
Maybe his real intentions were to give his economically struggling populace an external hate figure? Unite the people by finding a foreign target, rather than allow them to look too closely at what is happening at home.
Maybe he wanted to protect an unaligned buffer zone around Russia? That has been a notable failure if so, as the Russian aggression has resulted in a move towards NATO and the West.
I think Putin, like Hitler with Operation Barbarossa, simply underestimated his opposition.
We know Putin believed his Special Military Operation would be a simple blitzkrieg, it is clear he expected the West to do nothing, as we did in 2014.
Now he’s stuck, he’ll have people around him who won’t want another Soviet-Afghanistan situation, and I imagine he’ll be worried about a potential coup.
“Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown”
The first years of Putin saw the country get richer.
Since 2013 though, the economy has stalled, and the apparent few, but very rich, oligarchs contrast with the vast population doing none too well. If there were free elections, would he win many votes?
He needs to unite the populace behind a flag. It worked for Thatcher*!
Zac_A:
We know Putin believed his Special Military Operation would be a simple blitzkrieg,
Agreed.
Putin seems to have too many sycophants around him. He wouldnt have been told how under-resourced the army was. He wouldnt have been told early on about the trucks blowing out their decades old tyres. Which general would say to him “My area of responsibility has been a disaster”?
Zac_A:
it is clear he expected the West to do nothing, as we did in 2014.
Agreed.
Every time a liberty is taken, and it pays off, the seeds are sown for another one.
I am not saying the Falklands were a deliberate ploy by St Margaret. I am saying that a very unpopular PM saw a huge surge of approval from the country. Im only talking about leaders popularity.