ajdavis64:
Thetaff:
if you work for say 5 hours within your first 24hr period(4hrs driving for example) then pull your card take a 9hr break,i thought that you can only drive for 6hrs within that 1st 24hr periodanymore than that your breaking the law
is this right
No a new 24 hr period starts after a daily rest.
A tacho 24 hrs can be as short as 10 hrs.
thanks for clearing that up 
nice one
ajdavis64:
Tacho rules are stupid lol.
Q. how many days can you work legally?
We,ve had a lengthy discussion on this 
The answer is six.
There’s actually no regulation regarding the driving limit in the 24 hour period, the 9/10 hour limit is between two daily rest periods or a daily rest and a weekly rest period.
Also there’s nothing to stop you starting two shifts in the same day or period of 24 hours duration.
Personally I’d use two charts, as already said there’s a risk of overwriting if things go wrong.
As far as night work is concerned, without an opt out agreement in place you’re legally allowed to work a maximum of 10 hours (working time) in the 24 hour period from the start of shift, this isn’t the same as the tacho 24 hour period which resets after a daily or weekly rest.
For the night time working limits the 24 hour period is a period of 24 hours duration from the start of shift, so if you started work at 01:00 legally you’re not supposed to do more than 10 hours working time by 01:00 the following day unless there’s an opt out agreement in place.
That’s what the regulations say, weather or not anyone actually gives a ■■■■ about the WTD night time regulations is another story 
Mike-C:
ajdavis64:
Tacho rules are stupid lol.
Q. how many days can you work legally?We,ve had a lengthy discussion on this
That’s right Mike six periods of 24 hours duration
Delboytwo was 100% correct when he wrote.
delboytwo:
one thing that may be a prob is the 10 hour night rule if you have no opt out of the wtd
As was Wiretwister when he wrote
Wiretwister:
Not by my understanding it doesn’t. It is any 24 hour period from the start of duty.
If a driver begins work at 22:00, does 8 hours driving, 2 hours in total of other work and takes a 1 hour break during his shift, finishing at 09:00, under the WTD regulations he will not be able to resume work before 22:00 unless there is an opt out of the WTD night rule in place. Eight hours driving and 2 hours other work gives the maximum 10 hours of work allowed in any 24-hour period under the WTD. If he takes 9 hour rest for the tacho regulations and resumes at 18:00 he will have exceed 10 hours work within the 24-hour period, not an offence for the Driver’s Hours Regulations but not allowed under the WTD. He also cannot take 11 hours and resume at 20:00 as this will still put him over 10 hours night time working limit for the WTD.
Coffeeholic:
Delboytwo was 100% correct when he wrote.delboytwo:
one thing that may be a prob is the 10 hour night rule if you have no opt out of the wtdAs was Wiretwister when he wrote
Wiretwister:
Not by my understanding it doesn’t. It is any 24 hour period from the start of duty.If a driver begins work at 22:00, does 8 hours driving, 2 hours in total of other work and takes a 1 hour break during his shift, finishing at 09:00, under the WTD regulations he will not be able to resume work before 22:00 unless there is an opt out of the WTD night rule in place. Eight hours driving and 2 hours other work gives the maximum 10 hours of work allowed in any 24-hour period under the WTD. If he takes 9 hour rest for the tacho regulations and resumes at 18:00 he will have exceed 10 hours work within the 24-hour period, not an offence for the Driver’s Hours Regulations but not allowed under the WTD. He also cannot take 11 hours and resume at 20:00 as this will still put him over 10 hours night time working limit for the WTD.
We dont work under WTD rules, does RTD rules say the same thing?
ajdavis64:
We dont work under WTD rules, does RTD rules say the same thing?
yes mate i say the WTD but in fact it is the RTD(WTD) regs as mobile worker have there own regs
this is the bit about the 10 hour rule
Road Transport (Working Time)
Regulations 2005
4.3 What is the working time limit for night work?
Unless you have a relevant agreement, workers are limited to 10 hours work (i.e. working
time) over the 24 hour period. As with the other working time limits under this legislation,
breaks and periods of availability are not included in the 10 hour limit.The 24 hour period is very important, and should not be confused with 10 hours night work
per day. This prevents a worker starting slightly earlier on the following day, unless they did
less than 10 hours work on the previous day.When a mobile worker performs night work on a number of consecutive days, the start time
reference point for each consecutive 24 hour period is the time at which the mobile worker
started work on the first day. This start time reference point would cease to be used when a
mobile worker does not perform any night work during two consecutive 24 hour periods.For example if a mobile worker performed night work on a Monday and Tuesday, and started
work on the Monday at 01:00 hours, then the 24 hour period over which the 10 hour limit is
calculated would start at 01:00 hours on both days. If the mobile worker did not carry out any
Guidance on the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 night work during the next
48 hours (i.e. the Wednesday and Thursday), then on the Friday
the 24 hour period could start at 02:00 hours rather than 01:00 hours.
ajdavis64:
We dont work under WTD rules, does RTD rules say the same thing?
YES - many say WTD when referring to the RTD.
The RTD does has slightly different rules than the WTD.
It’s a little like those that refer to HGV instead of LGV.
So if they have an agreement, he is ok to work that shift pattern?
oh and the days you can work question should of said work over, but never mind.
I try not to worry to much about WTD/RTD as i dont drive enough in the year, well one of the reasons i dont drive much, is because of the WTD/RTD lol.
I think we were conned with POA lol.
Its a bit stupid having to work by 2 sets of rules, where was the unions when all this was being proposed.
Also what other industry runs by 2 sets.
I have been reading WTD and RTD rules and there could be some confusion, first a mobile work doesnt just mean truck/bus drivers.
states -The European drivers’ hours rules break requirements take precedence when driving.
then, Drivers already have minimum daily rest requirements under the European drivers’ hours rules. For any time spent driving a vehicle within scope of these rules, drivers are required to take 11 consecutive hours rest within the 24 hour period in question (calculated from the moment the driver commences work).
i take that to mean, after a daily rest break a new 24 hr period starts…
ajdavis64:
i take that to mean, after a daily rest break a new 24 hr period starts…
for tacho regs - yes
ajdavis64:
I try not to worry to much about WTD/RTD
you don’t have to - that is the EMPLOYERS responsibility
ajdavis64:
So if they have an agreement, he is ok to work that shift pattern?
yes
ajdavis64:
We dont work under WTD rules, does RTD rules say the same thing?
When I said WTD I meant The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005, whatever it’s called it’s not really worth worrying about anyway but it does say that.
ajdavis64:
oh and the days you can work question should of said work over
Under the current regulations, 14 is possible.
ROG:
ajdavis64:
i take that to mean, after a daily rest break a new 24 hr period starts…for tacho regs - yes
But it says tacho rules override WTD rules.
ajdavis64:
But it says tacho rules override WTD rules.
They are two different sets of rules and they are each to be taken seperate to the other although they run together and the breaks for each can count towards the other.
Trying to say that this one over-rides that one will only confuse you.
ajdavis64:
ROG:
ajdavis64:
i take that to mean, after a daily rest break a new 24 hr period starts…for tacho regs - yes
But it says tacho rules override WTD rules.
It doesn’t say that. It says The European drivers’ hours rules break requirements take precedence when driving and taking precedence doesn’t mean overriding. In this case it simply means that you must observe Driver’s Hours Regulation break requirements before WTD ones where necessary For example, you can’t postpone your break until the WTD 6 hour point if you accumulate 4.5 hours driving before 6 hours work and in that situation the EU hours regs have taken precedence over the WTD.
I:
two different sets of rules and they are each to be taken seperate to the other although they run together and the breaks for each can count towards the other.
To help you, I have done a shift below to show how the thinking should go - I decided not to throw POA into the mix
Finsh work Monday at 2000
Start work Tuesday at 0700 (A)
Check out and load vehicle 0700 to 0800 (B)
Drive 0800 to 1100 (C)
Unload 1100 to 1200 (D)
Drive 1200 to 1300 (E)
Break 1300 to 1315 (F)
Unload 1315 to 1400 (G)
Drive 1400 to 1430 (H)
Break 30 mins (I)
Drive 1500 to 1800 (J)
Load 1800 to 1900 (K)
Drive 1900 to 2000 (L)
Load 2000 to 2100 (M)
Break 2100 to 2115 (N)
Drive 2115 to 2130 (O)
Unload & end of duty stuff 2130 to 2200 (P)
Restart work Wednesday at 0700 (Q)
Now the way to do it -
1st - tacho regulations comformed to
2nd - RTD(WTD) regs comformed to
Answering each in turn is the way to determine if this is legal
Doing this on a daily basis for 5 days a week would not conform to the average 48 hour week but the EMPLOYER should then take action to remedy that by perhaps putting the driver on a shorter work week every other week.
PS & ADD - I hope I aint cocked this up or coffeeholic will shoot me 
Tacho regs? No
WTD regs? No
ajdavis64:
Tacho regs? No
WTD regs? No
If they are the answers to this…
ROG:
1st - tacho regulations comformed to
2nd - RTD(WTD) regs comformed to
Then using the Bits in the brackets as a reference state why not
Posting your reasons for thinking that it is not legal may help you to understand the rules a little better - this is what I did when I started to question things on here…
… took quite some time and effort from the site GURUs to turn my thinking around to what the regs ACTUALLY said though 
ROG:
PS & ADD - I hope I aint cocked this up or coffeeholic will shoot me
Looks fine to me, no working or driving limits exceeded without the required breaks and rest periods.
ROG:
PS & ADD - I hope I aint cocked this up or coffeeholic will shoot me
Coffeeholic:
Looks fine to me, no working or driving limits exceeded without the required breaks and rest periods.
That is down to your time & patience in educating me - thank you