Carryfast:
Which is why both the rail and air freight industries are both exempt from the type of road fuel taxation applied to road transport customers even though trucks designed to the most fuel efficient standards,aren’t a lot less fuel efficient than trains.While aircraft are the worst possible option for hauling freight from the point of view of fuel efficiency by comparison.
It’s irrelevant to compare aircraft with trucks, totally irrelevant. Half a dozen planes arrive at Manston every evening carrying African green beans, picked earlier in the day, they are loaded onto local fridge hauliers as soon as the plane touches down. It would be ludicrous to suggest that these green beans could be transported from Africa by truck. It’s impossible to imagine any situation where goods are transported by air simply because of some Government or eu subsidy.
I think there’d be plenty of scope for european road transport operators to take a reasonable amount of market share from the european air freight industry assuming that aircraft fuel was subject to as much,let alone more,taxation as,road fuel is.
Carryfast:
I think there’d be plenty of scope for european road transport operators to take a reasonable amount of market share from the european air freight industry assuming that aircraft fuel was subject to as much,let alone more,taxation as,road fuel is.
Do you know anything about Air Freight rates, compared to Road transport?
anybody with half an ounce of economic sense is going to choose road transport over Air freight.
You don’t choose Air Freight because of the cost you choose it because you need the stuff to get somewhere fast.
Just before Christmas I was asked to look into getting our gear to and from Abu Dhabi.
Air Freight £42,000 approx 4.5 tonnes
Full truck load overland by Road approx £26,000
45 ft Container £7500
The only reason we’d choose Air over Road or Sea is timescale.
Also the company I work for has a small air freight operation, up to 1 tonne anywhere in Europe.
In no way do these Aircraft compete with road transport because it many time more expensive than sending the stuff on a Van, which is really what the aircraft are similar to.
The only reason anybody would put Freight on the Aircraft is because it has to be somewhere bloody fast because it’s costing somebody a fortune if the part isn’t there, so it makes economic sense to send it.
Harry, FYI you can be as LTD as you want, but if you’re involved in some kind of issue that involves an insurance company or a financial institution they will have your guts for garters, you own the company, the company owes you loan repayments, you’re its primary employee and you’re the one signing cheques, opening accounts and driving the lorry, in your case Limited Liability is as much use as a mudflap on a tortoise. HTH
The ONLY time LTD makes sense is when turnover/profit dictates it
Carryfast:
I think there’d be plenty of scope for european road transport operators to take a reasonable amount of market share from the european air freight industry assuming that aircraft fuel was subject to as much,let alone more,taxation as,road fuel is.
Do you know anything about Air Freight rates, compared to Road transport?
anybody with half an ounce of economic sense is going to choose road transport over Air freight.
You don’t choose Air Freight because of the cost you choose it because you need the stuff to get somewhere fast.
Just before Christmas I was asked to look into getting our gear to and from Abu Dhabi.
Air Freight £42,000 approx 4.5 tonnes
Full truck load overland by Road approx £26,000
45 ft Container £7500
The only reason we’d choose Air over Road or Sea is timescale.
Also the company I work for has a small air freight operation, up to 1 tonne anywhere in Europe.
In no way do these Aircraft compete with road transport because it many time more expensive than sending the stuff on a Van, which is really what the aircraft are similar to.
The only reason anybody would put Freight on the Aircraft is because it has to be somewhere bloody fast because it’s costing somebody a fortune if the part isn’t there, so it makes economic sense to send it.
I wasn’t referring to UK-Middle East freight movements I was referring to European airfreight which is often already subject to road transport of varying degrees sometimes to the point of not being flown at all depending on distance ( around 500 kms threshold ).In which case any time advantage of using aircraft to transport shipments over that distance is irrelevant.
However my point was that charging airfreight carriers road fuel type taxes for aircraft fuel would probably also make the time advantage for even well over 500 kms shipments financially unviable,to the point of probable acceptance of an extension to that threshold for truck only transport of what would,at present,have been worthwhile to send by air for the relatively small time advantage which flying freight up to around 1,000-1,500 kms possibly even 2,000 kms would provide.
Carryfast, there’s room for all modes of transportation, taxation levels do not come into it, what matters is the deal the buyer of the transport gets, if one particular method is subject to subsidies, then so be it, it all adds to the economy, the boat/train/plane/lorry crewmen all get paid, the companies make money and the users of such modes of transport get a good deal, all the money goes back into the economy, you have to look at the bigger picture
Now, on the other hand, let’s give your idea a go, drop taxation levels to those of the lowest mode of transport, within a week the idiots that run lorries will be running around for bite size Mars Bars instead of full size ones
Supply and demand doesn’t come into it, for some obscure reason people in transport judge their ability to do business on providing the cheapest rate and the biggest saving for their customers, they’re happy to make 1 or 2% profit so that their customers can make a fortune
Look at the difference between road haulage and airfreight, with airfreight you get charged extra the second the airline’s costs increase, it isn’t cheap to start with, but you get what you pay for. In road haulage the hauliers absorb the increases and you get far more than you pay for, any company knows that as soon as things get a bit tight, all they have to do is phone their haulier and tell them the rates are dropping, the haulier will ■■■■ and moan, but still send his lorries in to pick up the freight, the whole industry has no ■■■■■■■■
Carryfast:
I wasn’t referring to UK-Middle East freight movements I was referring to European airfreight which is often already subject to road transport of varying degrees sometimes to the point of not being flown at all depending on distance ( around 500 kms threshold ).In which case any time advantage of using aircraft to transport shipments over that distance is irrelevant.
If the time advantage is irrelevant why does somebody pay the massive premium to use Air Freight over Road?
And why is it worthwhile for my boss to run Aircraft for those sort of distances when it would be far cheaper if he brought a couple of Vans?
newmercman:
Carryfast, there’s room for all modes of transportation, taxation levels do not come into it, what matters is the deal the buyer of the transport gets, if one particular method is subject to subsidies, then so be it, it all adds to the economy, the boat/train/plane/lorry crewmen all get paid, the companies make money and the users of such modes of transport get a good deal, all the money goes back into the economy, you have to look at the bigger picture
Now, on the other hand, let’s give your idea a go, drop taxation levels to those of the lowest mode of transport, within a week the idiots that run lorries will be running around for bite size Mars Bars instead of full size ones
Supply and demand doesn’t come into it, for some obscure reason people in transport judge their ability to do business on providing the cheapest rate and the biggest saving for their customers, they’re happy to make 1 or 2% profit so that their customers can make a fortune
Look at the difference between road haulage and airfreight, with airfreight you get charged extra the second the airline’s costs increase, it isn’t cheap to start with, but you get what you pay for. In road haulage the hauliers absorb the increases
Transport is transport regardless of mode and in all cases it’s a cut throat competitive business in which the issue of tight margins for all concerned and not being able to pass on every cost increase to the customer applies.The fact is road transport is the only mode that’s subject to such ridiculous levels of fuel taxation that would financially ■■■■■■■ most,if not all,other modes of transport if they were applied equally to all.Which really brings into question the idea that road transport is the bad lot in regards to it’s fuel efficiency compared to other modes.But no there isn’t room in the limited market place for transport services for all modes depending on which one of them your living depends on and if the job can possibly be done by that one not one of it’s competitor transport industries.
Trust me that is exactly how those working in those competitor transport industries would see it.However,as I’ve said,assuming that you can’t see any place for removing fuel taxation from the road transport industry,that still leaves the possibility of putting exactly the same rates of fuel taxation on the other modes.
However you’ve actually stated that you’re ok with other modes in the transport industry continuing to receive what is effectively an anti competitive subsidy concerning fuel costs thereby providing those modes with a competitive advantage v road transport.Which also seems to be a common view amongst many of those working in the road transport industry That’s the real problem with the road transport industry ( a commercially suicidal business outlook in regards to it’s competitors ) not the one of hauliers wanting to run around for half a mars bar by choice.
Carryfast:
I wasn’t referring to UK-Middle East freight movements I was referring to European airfreight which is often already subject to road transport of varying degrees sometimes to the point of not being flown at all depending on distance ( around 500 kms threshold ).In which case any time advantage of using aircraft to transport shipments over that distance is irrelevant.
If the time advantage is irrelevant why does somebody pay the massive premium to use Air Freight over Road?
And why is it worthwhile for my boss to run Aircraft for those sort of distances when it would be far cheaper if he brought a couple of Vans?
You obviously missed the bit where I said that comparison and choice would probably change big time assuming aircraft fuel costs were subjected to road trasport levels of fuel taxation at least on european traffic over the type of distances which I’ve stated.
Carryfast:
I wasn’t referring to UK-Middle East freight movements I was referring to European airfreight which is often already subject to road transport of varying degrees sometimes to the point of not being flown at all depending on distance ( around 500 kms threshold ).In which case any time advantage of using aircraft to transport shipments over that distance is irrelevant.
If the time advantage is irrelevant why does somebody pay the massive premium to use Air Freight over Road?
And why is it worthwhile for my boss to run Aircraft for those sort of distances when it would be far cheaper if he brought a couple of Vans?
You obviously missed the bit where I said that comparison and choice would probably change big time assuming aircraft fuel costs were subjected to road trasport levels of fuel taxation at least on european traffic over the type of distances which I’ve stated.
What’s more likely to happen if you increase tax on Inter Europe Air Freight is people will pay more. You only chose it because you absolutely have to get those bits somewhere now. Not in a day or 12 hours, but NOW.
When you’ve got an Oil Rig down or production line has stopped and it’s costing you tens of thousands and hour in lost production. Or when a racing car needs a part to run the next day, because somebody has paid £30,000+ to drive it or it’s your only chance to test before a season where you driver or their sponsors have paid in excess of £1,000,000.
Carryfast:
I wasn’t referring to UK-Middle East freight movements I was referring to European airfreight which is often already subject to road transport of varying degrees sometimes to the point of not being flown at all depending on distance ( around 500 kms threshold ).In which case any time advantage of using aircraft to transport shipments over that distance is irrelevant.
If the time advantage is irrelevant why does somebody pay the massive premium to use Air Freight over Road?
And why is it worthwhile for my boss to run Aircraft for those sort of distances when it would be far cheaper if he brought a couple of Vans?
You obviously missed the bit where I said that comparison and choice would probably change big time assuming aircraft fuel costs were subjected to road trasport levels of fuel taxation at least on european traffic over the type of distances which I’ve stated.
What’s more likely to happen if you increase tax on Inter Europe Air Freight is people will pay more. You only chose it because you absolutely have to get those bits somewhere now. Not in a day or 12 hours, but NOW.
When you’ve got an Oil Rig down or production line has stopped and it’s costing you tens of thousands and hour in lost production. Or when a racing car needs a part to run the next day, because somebody has paid £30,000+ to drive it or it’s your only chance to test before a season where you driver or their sponsors have paid in excess of £1,000,000.
Check out this report at section 7 as it applies to the road transport sector of the ‘air freight’ industry which I already knew about.You’ll note the amount of growth in that sector which has already taken place even with the subsidy which the airfreight industry benefits from to date.
As I’ve said there’s plenty of scope for taking ‘air freight’ by road being that there’s already loads of ‘air freight’ which goes by road and it’s only a relatively tiny proportion of that sector which needs anything like the level of time critical service level which you’re describing.In most cases it’s next day service levels which could easily be extended by a day or two,by most customers and the air freight operators themselves,who’d more than likely find themselves lumbered with the choice of absorb the cost increase themselves or send it by road if possible, given the incentive of the type of fuel cost hit which I’ve described.
Air freight wouldn’t absorb costs it would be that’s the price take it or leave it. Air freight has a place that’s why people pay huge premiums if need be. I don’t think many people would disagree with the fact road fuel tax is a rip off but your blind faith that cutting it or dropping it would suddenly make road transport the be all and end all and that hauliers would be making massive profits as they save the duty is totaly wrong. Road transport as it stands is been done to cheap in most cases to make a decent business sence.
Even the mighty stobart and the other big boys don’t just run trucks it’s the warehousing and other bits that make it viable.
Carryfast:
Check out this report at section 7 as it applies to the road transport sector of the ‘air freight’ industry which I already knew about.You’ll note the amount of growth in that sector which has already taken place even with the subsidy which the airfreight industry benefits from to date.
As I’ve said there’s plenty of scope for taking ‘air freight’ by road being that there’s already loads of ‘air freight’ which goes by road and it’s only a relatively tiny proportion of that sector which needs anything like the level of time critical service level which you’re describing.In most cases it’s next day service levels which could easily be extended by a day or two,by most customers and the air freight operators themselves,who’d more than likely find themselves lumbered with the choice of absorb the cost increase themselves or send it by road if possible, given the incentive of the type of fuel cost hit which I’ve described.
Of course a lot of Air Freight in Europe goes by road, why because it’s cheaper and still gets to it’s destination in an acceptable time for the customer. 500kms is the threshold because it’s what is accepted that a truck can do in a night trunk, putting the tax on the fuel isn’t going to change that threshold.
So despite this why does the rest get moved by Aircraft?
Because the customer wants it overnight or quicker and a truck cannot get there is that time frame. Regardless of how much the fuel costs or how many trailers it has.
kr79:
Air freight wouldn’t absorb costs it would be that’s the price take it or leave it. Air freight has a place that’s why people pay huge premiums if need be. I don’t think many people would disagree with the fact road fuel tax is a rip off but your blind faith that cutting it or dropping it would suddenly make road transport the be all and end all and that hauliers would be making massive profits as they save the duty is totaly wrong. Road transport as it stands is been done to cheap in most cases to make a decent business sence.
Even the mighty stobart and the other big boys don’t just run trucks it’s the warehousing and other bits that make it viable.
The fact is by ‘equalising’ ( which doesn’t automatically mean removing road fuel tax if,as so many seem to think for some strange unfathomable reason , it must stay ) fuel taxation amongst the different modes,at least in the european transport market,then the road transport industry would find itself in a much stronger position than it is at present with a lot more demand fo it’s services and it’s only by increasing that demand,by taking more market share from it’s competitors,that there’s any chance whatsoever of economic sustainability in the industry,at least as we know it since the mid 20th century on,and rates let alone growth.
As for the issue of the airfreight industry never having to absorb it’s costs because it supposedly passes them all on to it’s customers you really seem to be taking a naive view of the situation.The fact is,as anyone who runs an airline could tell you,the airfreight industry is no less subject,to similar types of pressures,concerning market resistance to large scale rate increases,than the road transport industry is.Which is why,as I’ve said,‘airfreight’ actually goes by road for it’s whole journey in some cases where the airlines see it as more economic to truck it than fly it and trust me,at road fuel type fuel costs,they’d be trucking a lot more ‘air freight’,over a lot further distance,than they do at their current subsidised, untaxed relative to road fuel,fuel costs with many customers just accepting the fact that next day delivery wouldn’t be financially worth the bother instead of waiting another day or two for their shipments.
It seems to me that there’s too many people in the road transport industry who don’t have a clue about how to look after it’s future interests and seem to have some commercially suicidal wish to return it to where it was in the early 20th century as being just a form of Steptoe type local transport service.
Carryfast:
Check out this report at section 7 as it applies to the road transport sector of the ‘air freight’ industry which I already knew about.You’ll note the amount of growth in that sector which has already taken place even with the subsidy which the airfreight industry benefits from to date.
As I’ve said there’s plenty of scope for taking ‘air freight’ by road being that there’s already loads of ‘air freight’ which goes by road and it’s only a relatively tiny proportion of that sector which needs anything like the level of time critical service level which you’re describing.In most cases it’s next day service levels which could easily be extended by a day or two,by most customers and the air freight operators themselves,who’d more than likely find themselves lumbered with the choice of absorb the cost increase themselves or send it by road if possible, given the incentive of the type of fuel cost hit which I’ve described.
Of course a lot of Air Freight in Europe goes by road, why because it’s cheaper and still gets to it’s destination in an acceptable time for the customer. 500kms is the threshold because it’s what is accepted that a truck can do in a night trunk, putting the tax on the fuel isn’t going to change that threshold.
So despite this why does the rest get moved by Aircraft?
Because the customer wants it overnight or quicker and a truck cannot get there is that time frame. Regardless of how much the fuel costs or how many trailers it has.
That isn’t exactly what you described as the type of customer base which the european airfreight industry mostly serves.I’ll stand by my statement that road fuel levels of taxation on aircraft fuel would result in a financial explosion within the european airfreight industry to the point where ( a lot ) more ‘air freight’ would go by road with the cost implications outweighing the time ones in regards to service levels.
So where does your captain of industry experience come in to it with you been right and everyone else been wrong then.
If air freight rates doubled and someone needed to get a part from Germany that was stopping an oil rig in Aberdeen from production you could do it for free in a truck and they would still chooses air freight as the rig been down is costing thousands of dollars an hour to be not working.
) not the one of hauliers wanting to run around for half a mars bar by choice.