Carryfast:
My theory,as to why the East European states seem happy enough to be all together in a Federation within the EU,but not outside of it,is because they are just a bunch of parasites who want to take the developed western economies for what they can get.
it seems that “Eastern Europeans being parasites and therefore…” is your theory to explain pretty much everything 
orys:
Carryfast:
My theory,as to why the East European states seem happy enough to be all together in a Federation within the EU,but not outside of it,is because they are just a bunch of parasites who want to take the developed western economies for what they can get.it seems that “Eastern Europeans being parasites and therefore…” is your theory to explain pretty much everything
Unless you can come up with a better theory as to why the constituent states of the old Yugoslav Federation all went to war with each other because they no longer wanted to be part of a Federation and wanted to be seperate nation states but they all seem happy enough now to be together again as part of a European Federation.
The question is would all the ex Eastern Bloc states be as keen to enter into an EU federation made up of just themselves if that federation didn’t include any of the developed west european states and if any/all those west european states were no longer members of the EU with subsequent total removal of all subsidies and wealth transfer from those developed western european states to the east european ones 
.
Well, I already gave you the explanation.
As for “unions without Britain”, well this is just one of the many projects: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visegr%C3%A1d_Group
So obviously Eastern European countries see benefit of cooperation even withoug subventions from the richer ones.
Myth busted
orys:
Well, I already gave you the explanation.As for “unions without Britain”, well this is just one of the many projects: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visegr%C3%A1d_Group
So obviously Eastern European countries see benefit of cooperation even withoug subventions from the richer ones.
Myth busted
Not really.It actually says they want closer ties to ‘further their European integration’.It all depends on the definition of what’s meant by ‘European’ and ‘Integration’.
It’s my bet it just means alignment between themselves just so long as they are doing it as part of the process of being part of a federal europe which would still involve us and Germany etc ? and in which the present transfer of wealth from west to east would continue.
However the fact is it doesn’t say anything there that the idea would involve withdrawal from the present EU to make up a Federation,just amongst themselves,which doesn’t involve the western european states at all.
Carryfast:
Not really.It actually says they want closer ties to ‘further their European integration’.It all depends on the definition of what’s meant by ‘European’ and ‘Integration’.
Yeah, because East from Oder it’s no longer Europe. So if they want to integrate, they HAVE to do it with the West 
It’s my bet it just means alignment between themselves just so long as they are doing it as part of the process of being part of a federal europe which would still involve us and Germany etc ? and in which the present transfer of wealth from west to east would continue.
Yeah, you lost. Did you bet lot?
The Vysehrad Triangle was created when nobody even dreamed about speaking with West as equals.
However the fact is it doesn’t say anything there that the idea would involve withdrawal from the present EU to make up a Federation,just amongst themselves,which doesn’t involve the western european states at all.
No, because it is better to have one paneuropean union than few smaller ones.
orys:
Carryfast:
Not really.It actually says they want closer ties to ‘further their European integration’.It all depends on the definition of what’s meant by ‘European’ and ‘Integration’.Yeah, because East from Oder it’s no longer Europe. So if they want to integrate, they HAVE to do it with the West
It’s my bet it just means alignment between themselves just so long as they are doing it as part of the process of being part of a federal europe which would still involve us and Germany etc ? and in which the present transfer of wealth from west to east would continue.
Yeah, you lost. Did you bet lot?
The Vysehrad Triangle was created when nobody even dreamed about speaking with West as equals.
No, because it is better to have one paneuropean union than few smaller ones.
They seem happy enough to allow plenty of East European states and ex Soviet Union ones from Russia to the Balkans into their scholarship programme so there’s plenty of scope fo a ‘Paneuropean Union’ there to make further ties amongst each other based on that without getting involved with us.Which would all take the whole situation back to where it all started and before they all started shouting about how much they couldn’t stand each other and all needed to be seperate sovereign states when it suited them but now want to be involved as a ‘paneuropean union’ when it suits them just so long as Germany and Britain is there to pick up the tab.
All seems to me just like what probably would have happened if Russia and the Warsaw Pact had invaded Western Europe during the 1960’s/70’s and won.
limeyphil:
we will fight on the beaches.
FTFY. You’re welcome.
after hearing the credit rating companies responses today. cameron done the right thing, the eurozone members are taking too long to sort this out. if we had agrreed to the french/german demands last week our financial services would be under tighter control from brussels but the eurozone still contiuing to go down the pan.
can see a lot less then 17 members of it this time next year
If you have any Euros left over from you holidays get them changed to Sterling quick before they become worthless in the New Year.
orys:
‘…there has to be something in it which keeps you in…’
Yeah - like jobs for failed British politicians and lick-spittle administrators. They’d be marginally scuppered if the EU’s language of operation wasn’t in English.
Maybe the main language(s) of the EU should be in the tongues of those at the heart of the federal catastrophe and stop using ours?
I theorise that by them all using our language to mangle our identity and our economy somehow causes us to feel wanted by them - when the evidence suggests they do it to patronise us for our money
Happy Keith:
orys:
‘…there has to be something in it which keeps you in…’Yeah - like jobs for failed British politicians and lick-spittle administrators.
That and the options it provides for those who are in the business of making a profit by taking advantage of those in eastern europe who are only too pleased to undercut civilised western economy wage levels.But orys has already explained the difference between the east european vision of the brave new Federal EU compared to the EEC that Harold Wilson and Ted Heath got us all into to start with.
He still doesn’t seem to have been able to explain why it was that the east europeans seemed to be so keen on self determination and having seperate sovereign states when it was all run by the old Soviet Union and/or the Federation of Yugoslavia but now they all seem to be as keen as mustard in getting into a Federal Europe.
Although having said that he’s also posted an example of the ongoing co operation,between ex Soviet Union,East European,and Yugoslav states that have only recenty made a big thing of how much they were all supposed to need to get away from each other and go their own ways because they,supposedly,couldn’t stand each other and only seemed happy when they were arguing amongst themselves or involved in fighting civil wars amongst each other. 
Not much difference between them and the Arabs in that case.It’s just that the Arabs haven’t found a way of forgetting all their differences by also joining the EU although Turkey seems close to trying and succeeding. 
I already explained it, you choosed to ignore. Therefore there is no point to be part of this discussion any more, since I can speak to my Christmas tree with much better results.
orys:
I already explained it, you choosed to ignore. Therefore there is no point to be part of this discussion any more, since I can speak to my Christmas tree with much better results.
Orys there is only one explanation as to how places like Serbia,Croatia,Bosnia,Slovenia could have all at each others throats not long ago but are now happy to all get together again in another type of Federation just so long as Germany and the UK are in it too to keep the money going in.
Carryfast:
Orys FOR ME there is only one explanation as to how places like Serbia,Croatia,Bosnia,Slovenia could have all at each others throats not long ago but are now happy to all get together again in another type of Federation just so long as Germany and the UK are in it too to keep the money going in.
Fixed it for you
orys:
Carryfast:
Orys FOR ME there is only one explanation as to how places like Serbia,Croatia,Bosnia,Slovenia could have all at each others throats not long ago but are now happy to all get together again in another type of Federation just so long as Germany and the UK are in it too to keep the money going in.Fixed it for you
But not exactly the same thing as providing a credible alternative theory,as to why a load of east european states,that told the world not so long ago,that they didn’t want to continue with being involved in a closely tied federation and/or politically and economically integrated with the Soviet Union and each other,now suddenly all seem so keen to forget all of their ideals about their wish for seperate sovereign nation recognition and all want to join together in a new federal Europe instead.
However it would be interesting to find out if they’d all be so keen if the UK and Germany weren’t part of that Federation in any way and if there was no financial benefit to them,by way of subsidies,in doing so.
Well, since you ignored what I wrote before, it’s obvious that further discussion is futile, because whatever I write, it will be ignored when it won’t fit your theory set in advance.
You completely ignored everything I told which dont’ fit, and you are completely unable to admit that you are wrong in something - not only to me, but also to other participants of this discusion.
Therefore I pass here and now and I am no longer willing to discuss with you. You can “claim your victory” in that discussion, if you want
Congratulations!
PS and don’t push me to give you the answer: just scroll the discussion up, it’s there already.
Carryfast:
‘…ex Soviet Union, East European and Yugoslav states … found a way of forgetting all their differences by … joining the EU although Turkey seems close to trying and succeeding…’
About which and should Turkey join - thereby multiplying the muddle by dragging their variation of Allah and assorted Brothers on board (Peace be upon Him/Them and may their sisters all be pretty [ 
], etc), what advantage is there to any member nation - especially the skint Greeks to whom Turkey would arguably not toss a coin?
Was Cameron’s recent announcement that ‘…[the UK] is a Christian country…’ a subtly coded message opposing Turkey joining the rolling cluster-flick of EU federalisation?
I hope so …but then again, if the UK can be guaranteed leaving the EU I don’t give a chuff
orys:
‘…it is better to have one paneuropean union than few smaller ones…’
As a Briton, I disagree.
Unless it is democratically & wholly unified with proper representation and a transparent manifesto involving all those financially participating.
Which, from a British perspective, is exactly what the EU is not 
Happy Keith:
orys:
‘…it is better to have one paneuropean union than few smaller ones…’As a Briton, I disagree.
Unless it is democratically & wholly unified
I think that is exactly what orys is saying and all those who are supporting the idea of a federal Europe actually want.
Which is exactly the choice that the whole issue will come down to in the end.Do we want to be part of a federal USE or do we want to get the hell out while we’ve got the chance in order to protect future generations of Britons finding themselves in the same type of position as many of those living in the southern states of america in 1863-5,and in Yugoslavia more recently,in a federation dominated by the interests of what the Germans and the east europeans want.