Not signing the treaty

[orys]

Carryfast:
That seems to forget that we’re actually a net contributor to the EU so it makes no difference how much subsidy our farmers get and if we kept all our contributions instead we’d therefore obviously be ahead even before we’ve taken into account our trade deficit with the EU.

True, but you forgot that Germans are in the same position when it comes to being contributor. Yet they farmers have much better conditions to work - more space, better climate, cheaper land…

The bank might have lent you the money to buy a car but that’s not the same thing as ‘giving’ you what the car is worth anyway and then lending you what it’s worth as well which is effectively what the EU contributors and bail out funds are all about although having said that the figure of double what it’s worth is an understatement in EU terms of EU bail outs,subsidies,and loans to the poorer states required to keep them in enough money to be able to buy anything from anywhere in the EU like us or Germany.

I would rather stick to my analogy on that.

I think Britain shut down it’s factories and coal mines on the blind faith by the bankers and governmwent ministers like Thatcher that just trying to run an economy on service industries and banking and a few manufacturing exports which were way outweighed by imports of manufactured goods and fuel supplies would keep us afloat.When in fact as we can see we are actually sinking under the weight of a massive trade deficit and the resulting debt crisis in the country’s balance of payments.

Last time I checked, Thatcher was British, voted to power by Britons. She wasn’t someone send here from Brussels. Therefore if she was so bad (I am not in position to make my own mind on that, since I don’t know too much about this period of your history) it’s your own fault. This is one of the reasons why I don’t really believe that from the day UK leaves EU everything will start to be brilliant here

As we’ve seen the whole thing has been based on what the bankers and a few idiot politicians wanted and now even they are trying to jump ship when they’ve seen what the cost is estimated at by the EU money collectors rattling the tin and if I was wrong about that liability on the EU’s finances of places like Greece,Italy,and Spain etc etc they wouldn’t be trying to ask us to pay up to help the Germans out would they.

Well, but aren’t this bankers mostly British? AFAIK London is a capitol of European banking. Everything important in that matter goes on the Canary Wharf. So isn’t it that you dragged everyone into trouble and now, after you pooed into the sandbox, you want to take your toys away and leave the other kids with the stink?

[orys]

att:
I am not going to bother, as you clearly display little or no understanding of how the EU works unilaterally(Or not in my opinion)

You suggest that my British lecturers who teached me most I know about EU have no understanding of this as well?

*That is what they call a superior British attitude…Get used to it.

That’s maybe what You call superior. The rest call that just a being buffoon and piggy behaviour

Yeah, I am used to it, after all I live in this country for quite a few years now

[carryfast]

att:
The rest of Europe is useless when compared to ze Germans, if ve haf to, ve vud shoot our own for abandoning ship, I just hope this philosophy remains intact in the struggle to be ze cream once again!

Fixed that.

We are a lot more civilised than that we would probably just settle for keel hauling them and a few hundred lashes of the cat.

[carryfast]

orys:

Carryfast:
That seems to forget that we’re actually a net contributor to the EU so it makes no difference how much subsidy our farmers get and if we kept all our contributions instead we’d therefore obviously be ahead even before we’ve taken into account our trade deficit with the EU.

True, but you forgot that Germans are in the same position when it comes to being contributor. Yet they farmers have much better conditions to work - more space, better climate, cheaper land…

The bank might have lent you the money to buy a car but that’s not the same thing as ‘giving’ you what the car is worth anyway and then lending you what it’s worth as well which is effectively what the EU contributors and bail out funds are all about although having said that the figure of double what it’s worth is an understatement in EU terms of EU bail outs,subsidies,and loans to the poorer states required to keep them in enough money to be able to buy anything from anywhere in the EU like us or Germany.

I would rather stick to my analogy on that.

I think Britain shut down it’s factories and coal mines on the blind faith by the bankers and governmwent ministers like Thatcher that just trying to run an economy on service industries and banking and a few manufacturing exports which were way outweighed by imports of manufactured goods and fuel supplies would keep us afloat.When in fact as we can see we are actually sinking under the weight of a massive trade deficit and the resulting debt crisis in the country’s balance of payments.

Last time I checked, Thatcher was British, voted to power by Britons. She wasn’t someone send here from Brussels. Therefore if she was so bad (I am not in position to make my own mind on that, since I don’t know too much about this period of your history) it’s your own fault. This is one of the reasons why I don’t really believe that from the day UK leaves EU everything will start to be brilliant here

As we’ve seen the whole thing has been based on what the bankers and a few idiot politicians wanted and now even they are trying to jump ship when they’ve seen what the cost is estimated at by the EU money collectors rattling the tin and if I was wrong about that liability on the EU’s finances of places like Greece,Italy,and Spain etc etc they wouldn’t be trying to ask us to pay up to help the Germans out would they.

Well, but aren’t this bankers mostly British? AFAIK London is a capitol of European banking. Everything important in that matter goes on the Canary Wharf. So isn’t it that you dragged everyone into trouble and now, after you pooed into the sandbox, you want to take your toys away and leave the other kids with the stink?

Not exactly.If you’d have read my previous posts you’d have read that I said it was also the fault many of the British voters at the time of the EU referendum and then the election of the Thatcher government and probably most of all Harold Wilson in not taking Peter Shore’s advice to get the hell out of the place ASAP after the 1974 election instead of which he joined forces with the Tory EU supporters to drive the policy through and baffle many of the referendum voters with so much bs that they didn’t know which way to vote which is why the ‘referendum’ was actually passed by a vote of just over half of those who voted in a turn out of just over half the voting population.

Another thing that Peter Shore wanted (obviously rightly with hindsight) was for the elected government to have control over the nations financial policy not a bunch of bankers who were just in it for their own profit or the Germans.However there’s no EU law that says that we aren’t allowed to learn by our mistakes and leave the failed experiment if we want to and it’s not Canary Wharf that got Greece,Italy,Spain’s and Portugal’s amongst others’ finances in the zb.

[orys]

Well that’s true, Greeks are to blame themselves, that could not run forever, and the bank crisis just bring the end quicker than anyonbe expected.

It’s all very interesting, I am very courious to see what will come out from that. I am just not sure that this is good for UK to stay out. Because I agree that EU in a shape it is now it’s not good, but since it cannot be like that any longer, there can be two outcomes:

• it will fall apart, so all countries will be out of it anyway
• it will be redone, this time properly. And then it might be a mistake for UK (or any country) to stay outside.

Thanks for a nice discussion, good night!

[happy_keith]

orys:
‘… Britain … is rather used to milk other countries (after all, you have a great colonial past)…’

Semantics perhaps, but please be reminded that Britain didn’t rip the pee by demanding £48.000.000 or it’s equivalent per day for so little from it’s Commonwealth - the head of which now, Queen Elizabeth, makes a fantastic endeavour to foster real, democratic, peace-making, arguably overdue and heart warming equality.

Also, Her Majesty has more than once apologised with candour & humility for episodes for which Britain need not feel too proud: Long may She and Her values reign.

Unlike Brussels - which today is nothing more than a bloated, uncontrolled, self-licking lollipop of a World War prevention mechanism bound by geography with a charade of leaderless, blind, deaf, unelected, spiteful, threatening and bullying political wannabbees at it’s self-steering & very inadequate rudder.

The EU has served a purpose until now - but it’s now evidently appropriate to renegotiate what Britain craves in 2011/12 and to work independently, successfully & courteously within a democratic world order.

We (unless you’re an outsider peeing in) have great, hard-working, innovative but too often disenfranchised talent being strangled in this country, so why should we mutely accept from outsiders what dewy-eyed politicians misled us to assume in the 1970’s any longer

[truckyboy]

I fully support dave, as at least he had the guts to stand for the people of this country. I know very litle about politics, but what i have noticed is the pound growing against the euro, which is great, it shows what other investors believe in where to put their money. The euro will collapse, no matter how much money is invested in the countries whose debts are spiralling out of control. Germany wants to save face, because it was their baby to set up this americanisation of europe, and its collapsing around their ears. Greece should realise what year their living in, with very little taxation, early retirement, and very little in the way of exports. Ireland was a country of many exports, and still they got into trouble, Portugal, Spain are heading for big problems, and no amount of money can save them from insolvency. The way i see it is all euro countries will default on their debts, they will have to reinvent their own currencies once more, eat humble pie, get around the table, and reinvent europe as a united nation. I dont think we should completely go it alone, but i would certainly want to renogitiate the terms, and drop things like the human rights act which is stopping us from deporting terrorists, illegals, and undesirables, and thats just for starters. The one thing that really gets my goat, is the meddling in europe, by unnelected politicians, who know nothing about the subject theyre meddling in, and just try and justify their excellent salaries, and transport is one of them where in the last few years drivers have had to apply for permission to drive, ( CPC ) even though they have got the correct licence, ( and been driving for many years ) added to that is another laugh ( NVQ ) and god help us whatever next, this has to stop, and if i had my way, would like dave to stop it as well. Where are our transport institutions when we need them eh !

[carryfast]

truckyboy:
I fully support dave, as at least he had the guts to stand for the people of this country. I know very litle about politics, but what i have noticed is the pound growing against the euro, which is great, it shows what other investors believe in where to put their money.

More like the Tory zb was standing up for his banker mates in the City.The pound is stronger against the Euro because it’s being kept thay way by the traders to make sure that Germany keeps a trading advantage over us and to (try) to save the EU taking Germany down with it and it’s seen as the best of a bad bunch considering that the DM has gone.

But you can bet if the Euro collapses and the DM returns and Britain still stays in the EU then the DM would be where the banks would put even more of their money which would make Gerrman exports more expensive but they would probably be clever enough to do what they do best in growing their own domestic market by consuming more of what they produce at home instead.

There’s probably more investment going into German industry than British industry and given the choice the big international banks would rather try to save the EU,especially Germany, from going under than us because that’s where they’ve got more of their money ■■■■■■■.The ironic thing is that even the British banks are exposed to more risk by their investments in the EU than they are at home in the domestic economy because as usual the British banks have alway preferred to say one thing and do another when it comes to the national interest and where they put their money.

The only way for Britain to survive is to concentrate on the domestic economy by cutting imports to a minimum and produce the goods it consumes and forget about trying to base the economy on exports in the global market which is where the flaw in the present German growth figures can be found.Because the only way that Germany is getting paid for those exports is by it’s customers being given the money to buy them,by us,first.

[conor]

…

[conor]

chicane:
They say 40% of our exports go to EU countries therefore 60% goes elsewhere, we also import way more from EU countries than we export to them so in reality without the UK the other EU countries would be even more stuffed than they are already.

But 40% of our exports don’t necessarily go to the EU. The problem we have is that all our exports that end up going via Rotterdam are classed as EU exports even if their actual destination is outside the EU such as Russia.

[wheel_nut]

truckyboy:
I fully support dave, as at least he had the guts to stand for the people of this country. I know very litle about politics, but what i have noticed is the pound growing against the euro, which is great, it shows what other investors believe in where to put their money. The euro will collapse, no matter how much money is invested in the countries whose debts are spiralling out of control. Germany wants to save face, because it was their baby to set up this americanisation of europe, and its collapsing around their ears. Greece should realise what year their living in, with very little taxation, early retirement, and very little in the way of exports. Ireland was a country of many exports, and still they got into trouble, Portugal, Spain are heading for big problems, and no amount of money can save them from insolvency. The way i see it is all euro countries will default on their debts, they will have to reinvent their own currencies once more, eat humble pie, get around the table, and reinvent europe as a united nation. I dont think we should completely go it alone, but i would certainly want to renogitiate the terms, and drop things like the human rights act which is stopping us from deporting terrorists, illegals, and undesirables, and thats just for starters. The one thing that really gets my goat, is the meddling in europe, by unnelected politicians, who know nothing about the subject theyre meddling in, and just try and justify their excellent salaries, and transport is one of them where in the last few years drivers have had to apply for permission to drive, ( CPC ) even though they have got the correct licence, ( and been driving for many years ) added to that is another laugh ( NVQ ) and god help us whatever next, this has to stop, and if i had my way, would like dave to stop it as well. Where are our transport institutions when we need them eh !

Don’t put yourself down Bob, the blue bit, and the rest of it is about spot on too.

Like Orys said, if we drop out tomorrow, many people think it will all be rosy in the garden. It won’t!

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:
Like Orys said, if we drop out tomorrow, many people think it will all be rosy in the garden. It won’t!

We’ve got nothing to lose.It’s costing us more to stay in than we’re getting back by being in and we need to cut the trade and balance of payments deficits pdq and we can’t do that unless we drastically reduce imports and start making for ourselves what we’re consuming and we can’t do that unless we get out of the EU and tell the WTO where to go as well.

And all that is even before taking into account the amount of money that we’re putting into the EU in contributions and bail outs etc etc all for the privilege of being in a trade deficit with them.

[muckles]

Conor:

chicane:
They say 40% of our exports go to EU countries therefore 60% goes elsewhere, we also import way more from EU countries than we export to them so in reality without the UK the other EU countries would be even more stuffed than they are already.

But 40% of our exports don’t necessarily go to the EU. The problem we have is that all our exports that end up going via Rotterdam are classed as EU exports even if their actual destination is outside the EU such as Russia.

So that’s how it’s worked out, so therefore does it follow that all those imports we are supposed to get from the EU are just because the container went to Rotterdam?

but what i have noticed is the pound growing against the euro, which is great,

Not really, a high exchange rate against the Euro or any other Currency means it cheaper to import goods from those Countries, but more expensive to export goods and services, such as haulage.

it shows what other investors believe in where to put their money. The euro will collapse, no matter how much money is invested in the countries whose debts are spiralling out of control.

The future of the Euro is still uncertain, which is why investors aren’t putting money into it. Of course this lack of confidence by the market causes the Eurozone more problems which might mean it will go.

Ireland was a country of many exports, and still they got into trouble,

Ireland was massivily exposed by a large banking sector, similar to Iceland.

but i would certainly want to renogitiate the terms, and drop things like the human rights act

The Human Right and and the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU.
We signed upto it in the 1950’s.
Although we could do without it’s principles being twisted by those with thier own political agenda and money grabbing lawers.

The one thing that really gets my goat, is the meddling in europe, by unnelected politicians, who know nothing about the subject theyre meddling in, and just try and justify their excellent salaries,

A bit less legislation for the sake of it would be good, but with the green pro rail lobby groups in this Country I’m sure you’d still get a load of new regulations without Europe. What really needed is a strong European wide Pro driver lobby group.

( NVQ )

Don’t think that has anything to do with the EU, that’s all ours.

[muckles]

Carryfast:

Wheel Nut:
Like Orys said, if we drop out tomorrow, many people think it will all be rosy in the garden. It won’t!

We need to cut the trade and balance of payments deficits pdq and we can’t do that unless we drastically reduce imports and start making for ourselves what we’re consuming and we can’t do that unless we get out of the EU and tell the WTO where to go as well.

For somebody who seems to live in the past, you seem to forget we’ve always been a Country of imports and Exports. We went to war and invaded Countries so we could protect our trade. What made Britain was using and exporting leading edge technology. And that is how we’ll get ourselves out of this, not by closing the doors.

[orys]

Carryfast:

Wheel Nut:
Like Orys said, if we drop out tomorrow, many people think it will all be rosy in the garden. It won’t!

We’ve got nothing to lose

Well, if I try to look at the things from your point of view, it would be very good for Poland and other countries if you drop off. You invested a lot of money in Eastern European countries in hope that one day that investition bring you profit. If you quit the EU now, these profit will to be shared amongst less investors

[tonys]

Happy Keith wrote:

Semantics perhaps, but please be reminded that Britain didn’t rip the pee by demanding £48.000.000 or it’s equivalent per day for so little from it’s Commonwealth - the head of which now, Queen Elizabeth, makes a fantastic endeavour to foster real, democratic, peace-making, arguably overdue and heart warming equality.

Also, Her Majesty has more than once apologised with candour & humility for episodes for which Britain need not feel too proud: Long may She and Her values reign.

You bang on about the unelected tyrants who serve as a drain on the UK’s national ■■■■■. And then you praise the royal family. I am most confused.

[carryfast]

muckles:

Carryfast:

Wheel Nut:
Like Orys said, if we drop out tomorrow, many people think it will all be rosy in the garden. It won’t!

We need to cut the trade and balance of payments deficits pdq and we can’t do that unless we drastically reduce imports and start making for ourselves what we’re consuming and we can’t do that unless we get out of the EU and tell the WTO where to go as well.

For somebody who seems to live in the past, you seem to forget we’ve always been a Country of imports and Exports. We went to war and invaded Countries so we could protect our trade. What made Britain was using and exporting leading edge technology. And that is how we’ll get ourselves out of this, not by closing the doors.

There’s only so far that you can take the idea of ‘leading edge technology’ and not everyone can be employed in the cutting edge of the aerospace etc etc industries even at that level of industry we’ve been subjected to cut throat competition by places like Germany and America etc.

Most of the other types of manufacturing technology are now available to anyone who wants them,including the ‘developing countries’ .More often than not British workers lose their jobs because someone somewhere else says that they can do the job cheaper just so long as our banks forward them the start up capital first and we give them the required technology to get up and running.Usually the open door lot try to justify all that by saying it’s a good thing because those developing countries will somehow miraculously all turn into instant export markets for our products when the reality is proved otherwise.

The fact is no one else is going to buy stuff from us that they can make themselves and those that can’t make it for themselves can’t afford to buy it from us anyway unless we effectively give them the money first by giving them ‘foreign aid’ in the form of venture capital to start up industries of their own and buying stuff from them that we don’t need and could make for ourselves.China being a perfect example.

As for Germany there’s no way that they will ever buy as much value in cars and engineering products as we buy from them and there’s no way that the Americans will ever buy as much value aerospace products from Britain as we buy from them.

What made Britain was having the know how to make more and better things than anyone else.However that all ended before the start of the 20th Century and from that point on what kept us afloat was buying British and protecting our industries from foreign competition.

That was before some open door free trade bankers etc etc said let’s base the economy on what we can export instead of providing for ourselves and just exporting the surplus where we can and let’s join the EU and let’s open the place up to global free trade and competition with all our competitors and call them ‘trading partners’ instead.

The fact is the German economic miracle was based on the former idea not the latter and that’s why they have always been better off than us since we went for the latter and that’s why the present idea of Germany,or us, trying to keep ourselves and the rest of Europe afloat by exporting to each other and places like China won’t work in the long term.

[carryfast]

orys:

Carryfast:

Wheel Nut:
Like Orys said, if we drop out tomorrow, many people think it will all be rosy in the garden. It won’t!

We’ve got nothing to lose

Well, if I try to look at the things from your point of view, it would be very good for Poland and other countries if you drop off. You invested a lot of money in Eastern European countries in hope that one day that investition bring you profit.

It was the British bankers and company owners who invested a lot of Britain’s money in places like Poland etc after people like Thatcher gave them the powers to do it.Before us it was Russia that was throwing good money after bad at the east european states and got out when they realised how stupid they were.

But at least you’re now admitting where all that east european growth has come from.It’s not surprising then that while eastern europe is getting richer at our expense we’re in debt and getting poorer.

However even if we stay that ‘profit’ is just a type of fools gold in which east european workers and those profiting from cheap labour here are getting richer at the rest of the population’s expense so it’s austerity for us to pay for their profit.

[orys]

Carryfast:
Before us it was Russia that was throwing good money after bad at the east european states and got out when they realised how stupid they were.

OMG, you really thinks that Russia was giving us money I haven’t met for long time anyone who has completely no clue about what he is talking about to such extend

[limeyphil]

orys:

Carryfast:
Before us it was Russia that was throwing good money after bad at the east european states and got out when they realised how stupid they were.

OMG, you really thinks that Russia was giving us money I haven’t met for long time anyone who has completely no clue about what he is talking about to such extend

i know what he’s on about when he says Russia. he means USSR.