Baggie:
This is an interesting article… bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16136004 ,surprisingly “supportive” of Dave,considering it’s the beeb
Therein lies the problem 
fuse:
It is a two speed Europe now , they are in the fast lane but they have no idea where they are going
The question is: if it turns up that they go in good direction, will Britain be able to catch up with them easily?
orys:
fuse:
It is a two speed Europe now , they are in the fast lane but they have no idea where they are goingThe question is: if it turns up that they go in good direction, will Britain be able to catch up with them easily?
Germany would never allow a situation in which Britain was ever allowed to catch up with and overtake them economically without Britain leaving the EU and taking them on in a real industrial competition.
We stand more chance of doing that by treating the EU members,especially Germany, as what they are competitors rather than ‘trading partners’ and getting rid of our EU contributions and investing them at home instead would give us a head start in that and leave Germany to pick up the tab for supporting the rest of the no hopers.I think there’s probably plenty of train manufacturing workers here who would support that idea to start with.
Well, I don’t know the answer, I just wonder about things.
But from reading that thread I have a feeling that yous forgot that common European market not only allows others to sell their stuff easier here, but also help you to sell your stuff elsewhere. I would think that it would be good for Britain if it was buying some basic products from elsewhere and exporting advanced technologies, instead of wasting its valuable resourced to produce some crap which can be done much cheaper in Romania or China…
I have to say I don’t have my opinion on that matter, I just try to learn as much as I can. I have only one thing to say: when Slovakia entered the Euro Zone people in Poland were moaning that we didn’t. I was on opinion that it’s not a question if we are ready for Euro, but if Euro is worth to join it, and I was happy that we haven’t. It seems that I was right about it.
I still think that Euro is a good idea, but it was done wrong: you can’t do it half way, as you can’t be half pregnant: either it should be done by complete unification of the members monetary systems, or it should not be done at all.
orys:
Well, I don’t know the answer, I just wonder about things.But from reading that thread I have a feeling that yous forgot that common European market not only allows others to sell their stuff easier here, but also help you to sell your stuff elsewhere. I would think that it would be good for Britain if it was buying some basic products from elsewhere and exporting advanced technologies, instead of wasting its valuable resourced to produce some crap which can be done much cheaper in Romania or China…
I have to say I don’t have my opinion on that matter, I just try to learn as much as I can. I have only one thing to say: when Slovakia entered the Euro Zone people in Poland were moaning that we didn’t. I was on opinion that it’s not a question if we are ready for Euro, but if Euro is worth to join it, and I was happy that we haven’t. It seems that I was right about it.
I still think that Euro is a good idea, but it was done wrong: you can’t do it half way, as you can’t be half pregnant: either it should be done by complete unification of the members monetary systems, or it should not be done at all.
The fact is that we’re in trade deficit with the EU not even parity.So the argument about us being able to sell things in the EU doesn’t matter.If they want what we’re making they can buy it without us needing to be in the EU anyway just as was the case before 1973 and now in the case of EU imports from places like China.
All we’re doing as members is paying massive EU contributions to make East European states and other relatively poor EU states richer than they would otherwise be all for the privilege of being in a trade deficit and having to compete with places like Germany.We’d be a lot richer by keeping our contributions and actually putting up trade barriers against Germany etc in which case we’ve got nothing to lose in a trade war with Germany because they sell more to us than we sell to them anyway and Germany’s wealth was actually built on having a strong domestic economy just like ours should be which is where we’ve gone wrong ever since Peter Shore’s ideas were ignored by that commie zb Wilson.
However it’s my bet if we leave the EU then Germany would leave and then it would be what it should have been since the end of WW2,a straight fight between us and them but this time economically not with weapons and with no further transfer of British wealth to Europe,as took place after WW2 to get Germany back on it’s feet,in which British workers were then treated by them as second class citizens for their trouble.
Why do you think that if you left EU, Germany would follow?
orys:
Well, I don’t know the answer, I just wonder about things.But from reading that thread I have a feeling that yous forgot that common European market not only allows others to sell their stuff easier here, but also help you to sell your stuff elsewhere. I would think that it would be good for Britain if it was buying some basic products from elsewhere and exporting advanced technologies, instead of wasting its valuable resourced to produce some crap which can be done much cheaper in Romania or China…
I have to say I don’t have my opinion on that matter, I just try to learn as much as I can. I have only one thing to say: when Slovakia entered the Euro Zone people in Poland were moaning that we didn’t. I was on opinion that it’s not a question if we are ready for Euro, but if Euro is worth to join it, and I was happy that we haven’t. It seems that I was right about it.
I still think that Euro is a good idea, but it was done wrong: you can’t do it half way, as you can’t be half pregnant: either it should be done by complete unification of the members monetary systems, or it should not be done at all.
Hey, Orys…if we where to leave the EU completley would you have to go back home?
orys:
Why do you think that if you left EU, Germany would follow?
Why do you think they wouldn’t ?. 
Seriously their domestic economy is stronger than that of the rest of Europe and without our contributions they would be left holding (and feeding) the baby.There’s a big difference between what most of the German population would want,in the case of a Europe without UK contributions and loss of their UK export market (becuase we’ve put the shutters up against German imports remember ) and what Merkel says at the moment.
I reckon it would be the biggest victory over Germany for Britain since the Battle of Britain and the world cup in 1966.
Orys, he’s just hoping that Germany would follow, our Carryfast was born too late, he just wants to dress up in camo gear and shoot Ze Germans
Mike-C:
Hey, Orys…if we where to leave the EU completley would you have to go back home?
No, lex retro non agit. I become a resident when it was legal and this right cannot be taken from me.
I am not sure though, if I wanted to stay here, being EU citizen is all right, but being a complete foreigner might be much harder.
newmercman:
Orys, he’s just hoping that Germany would follow, our Carryfast was born too late, he just wants to dress up in camo gear and shoot Ze Germans
I think in this case it would be a certain bet,not just me hoping,and more a case of them being economically zb’d,if they don’t follow us out the door,not shot.
But from our point of view it would be better if they did stay so they get poorer looking after all the East European states and Greece,Italy,Spain and Portugal while we get on with making Jags to make up for all those missing Mercs and BMW’s.
Carryfast:
orys:
Why do you think that if you left EU, Germany would follow?Why do you think they wouldn’t ?.
Because it would be stupid for them.
First: they invested in EU idea too much
Second: EU is their biggest export market.
Three: Unlike UK they are doing pretty well even though they have to save the Greece and other ones.
Four: They don’t need to leave EU to beat you in, how you call it, trade-economical war. For that simple matter for example: they can grow their own tomatoes, make their own wine and their farming is much more efficient - simple because they have better climate for it. You have to import most of your food stuff. If you quit the EU, it will be harder for you. If they quit, they will still have much more their own than you do. And this is just one example.
Five: They are not alone. There are other countries still on growth, for example some of the new members (I am sorry, but I have to mention Poland in that context). And unlike You, or Germany, we are not panicking about current crisis. Poland 20 years ago was in much more harsh position than Greece is now, it won’t be easy to get back on track, but it can be done no problem. Look where we were in 1991 and where we are now. It’s funny when I read Western analysis, which are all in the mood of “We are all doooooooomed”, and then compare them with Eastern European analysists “Well, it’s not good, so get your bums up and do the job which needs be done, we’ve been trought that all, it’s no need to panic”.
Six: Unlike Britain, who is rather used to milk other countries (after all, you have a great colonial past), Germans have some experience in “feeding the baby” - the West has to rebuild the East after the Wall collapsed. As you can see despite these enourmous “sacrificies” they managed to put the East back on their feet to such extend, that they are one of the countries which manages the current crisis best.
Seriously their domestic economy is stronger than that of the rest of Europe and without our contributions they would be left holding (and feeding) the baby.There’s a big difference between what most of the German population would want,in the case of a Europe without UK contributions and loss of their UK export market (becuase we’ve put the shutters up against German imports remember ) and what Merkel says at the moment.
Mind you, that if they feed the baby, the baby will grow up and then it will be ready to buy their stuff. Even if they won’t have the money, they will be able to pay them with oranges, olives, fruits and vegetables they can easily grow there on the south of Europe. And you will be sitting behind your shutters, eating your cauliflower, potatoes and turnips 
I reckon it would be the biggest victory over Germany for Britain since the Battle of Britain and the world cup in 1966.
I think I can agree with you on only one bit of the above:
But from our point of view it would be better if they did stay so they get poorer looking after all the East European states
I would like to draw your attention that most of the Eastern European states don’t need help so far. Even the baltic states, which were strongly hit by the crunch somehow manage without the rest of Europe forking their money for them. In fact the biggest Eastern European Economy, Poland, is the ONLY country in Europe who still maintains economical growth. OK, we are poorer than Germany, but we are growing faster.
orys:
Carryfast:
orys:
Why do you think that if you left EU, Germany would follow?Why do you think they wouldn’t ?.
Because it would be stupid for them.
First: they invested in EU idea too much
Second: EU is their biggest export market.
Three: Unlike UK they are doing pretty well even though they have to save the Greece and other ones.
Four: They don’t need to leave EU to beat you in, how you call it, trade-economical war. For that simple matter for example: they can grow their own tomatoes, make their own wine and their farming is much more efficient - simple because they have better climate for it. You have to import most of your food stuff. If you quit the EU, it will be harder for you. If they quit, they will still have much more their own than you do. And this is just one example.
Five: They are not alone. There are other countries still on growth, for example some of the new members (I am sorry, but I have to mention Poland in that context). And unlike You, or Germany, we are not panicking about current crisis. Poland 20 years ago was in much more harsh position than Greece is now, it won’t be easy to get back on track, but it can be done no problem. Look where we were in 1991 and where we are now. It’s funny when I read Western analysis, which are all in the mood of “We are all doooooooomed”, and then compare them with Eastern European analysists “Well, it’s not good, so get your bums up and do the job which needs be done, we’ve been trought that all, it’s no need to panic”.
Six: Unlike Britain, who is rather used to milk other countries (after all, you have a great colonial past), Germans have some experience in “feeding the baby” - the West has to rebuild the East after the Wall collapsed. As you can see despite these enourmous “sacrificies” they managed to put the East back on their feet to such extend, that they are one of the countries which manages the current crisis best.Seriously their domestic economy is stronger than that of the rest of Europe and without our contributions they would be left holding (and feeding) the baby.There’s a big difference between what most of the German population would want,in the case of a Europe without UK contributions and loss of their UK export market (becuase we’ve put the shutters up against German imports remember ) and what Merkel says at the moment.
Mind you, that if they feed the baby, the baby will grow up and then it will be ready to buy their stuff. Even if they won’t have the money, they will be able to pay them with oranges, olives, fruits and vegetables they can easily grow there on the south of Europe. And you will be sitting behind your shutters, eating your cauliflower, potatoes and turnips
I reckon it would be the biggest victory over Germany for Britain since the Battle of Britain and the world cup in 1966.
I think I can agree with you on only one bit of the above:
But from our point of view it would be better if they did stay so they get poorer looking after all the East European states
I would like to draw your attention that most of the Eastern European states don’t need help so far. Even the baltic states, which were strongly hit by the crunch somehow manage without the rest of Europe forking their money for them. In fact the biggest Eastern European Economy, Poland, is the ONLY country in Europe who still maintains economical growth. OK, we are poorer than Germany, but we are growing faster.
Orys have you really looked at the maths of exactly where the funding for that East European ‘growth’ is coming from and exactly how much of a financial liability that the combined economies of France,Greece,Italy,Spain and Portugal are when set against the assets and GDP of Germany on the balance sheet.It’s a bit like us trading with China.The only way that the East Europeans and the French,Greeks,Italians,Spanish and Portugese can afford to buy German exports is if the Germans pay them twice as much as those exports would be worth first to buy them.
There, as always, is much more to this than is meeting the eyes.
The Euro as a currency will fail next year.
The EU will break up to a certain degree, already other member states are not too sure what it is they have signed up to, or if they will get it through their own administrations.
If the UK is out of the EU, it will not affect trade, how can they fly an Airbus without it`s wings? And that industry will not be allowed any special concessions, our Govt. is too strong at the moment, bouyed up by a very strong sense of patriotism at the moment, something which the current Govt. is more than aware of, so they will capitalise upon it.
I feel that they are aware of the ordinary Briton being a tad ■■■■■■ off with foreign influence and control, not to mention immigration and even a blind man can see that if you get rid of the foreign labour force, the unemployment statistics will become more friendly, this is always a winner of votes and would go hand in hand with patrionism…Added to this, the fact that Nationalist parties have been gathering in strength of late…It only points to one direction.
The trade remains the same, but the EU membership becomes null and void, this in turn will lead to the expulsion of non nationals and a waving good bye to low rates in every sector.
The Euro or replacement will be trading low in comparison to the pound, so we had better find new markets in the East and the USA, but on the upside, imports from the EU will become more affordable.
We can only be winners if we play the game right though.
As an aside, it seems that the United States of Europe, which the ruling elite wanted, were not prepared for the bloodshed that would ensue, if it were to become a reality!
And if you doubt that remark, just do your research into the Rothschilds and what they actually control in the Western world! 
Carryfast:
orys:
Carryfast:
orys:
Why do you think that if you left EU, Germany would follow?Why do you think they wouldn’t ?.
Because it would be stupid for them.
First: they invested in EU idea too much
Second: EU is their biggest export market.
Three: Unlike UK they are doing pretty well even though they have to save the Greece and other ones.
Four: They don’t need to leave EU to beat you in, how you call it, trade-economical war. For that simple matter for example: they can grow their own tomatoes, make their own wine and their farming is much more efficient - simple because they have better climate for it. You have to import most of your food stuff. If you quit the EU, it will be harder for you. If they quit, they will still have much more their own than you do. And this is just one example.
Five: They are not alone. There are other countries still on growth, for example some of the new members (I am sorry, but I have to mention Poland in that context). And unlike You, or Germany, we are not panicking about current crisis. Poland 20 years ago was in much more harsh position than Greece is now, it won’t be easy to get back on track, but it can be done no problem. Look where we were in 1991 and where we are now. It’s funny when I read Western analysis, which are all in the mood of “We are all doooooooomed”, and then compare them with Eastern European analysists “Well, it’s not good, so get your bums up and do the job which needs be done, we’ve been trought that all, it’s no need to panic”.
Six: Unlike Britain, who is rather used to milk other countries (after all, you have a great colonial past), Germans have some experience in “feeding the baby” - the West has to rebuild the East after the Wall collapsed. As you can see despite these enourmous “sacrificies” they managed to put the East back on their feet to such extend, that they are one of the countries which manages the current crisis best.Seriously their domestic economy is stronger than that of the rest of Europe and without our contributions they would be left holding (and feeding) the baby.There’s a big difference between what most of the German population would want,in the case of a Europe without UK contributions and loss of their UK export market (becuase we’ve put the shutters up against German imports remember ) and what Merkel says at the moment.
Mind you, that if they feed the baby, the baby will grow up and then it will be ready to buy their stuff. Even if they won’t have the money, they will be able to pay them with oranges, olives, fruits and vegetables they can easily grow there on the south of Europe. And you will be sitting behind your shutters, eating your cauliflower, potatoes and turnips
I reckon it would be the biggest victory over Germany for Britain since the Battle of Britain and the world cup in 1966.
I think I can agree with you on only one bit of the above:
But from our point of view it would be better if they did stay so they get poorer looking after all the East European states
I would like to draw your attention that most of the Eastern European states don’t need help so far. Even the baltic states, which were strongly hit by the crunch somehow manage without the rest of Europe forking their money for them. In fact the biggest Eastern European Economy, Poland, is the ONLY country in Europe who still maintains economical growth. OK, we are poorer than Germany, but we are growing faster.
Orys have you really looked at the maths of exactly where the funding for that East European ‘growth’ is coming from and exactly how much of a financial liability that the combined economies of France,Greece,Italy,Spain and Portugal are when set against the assets and GDP of Germany on the balance sheet.It’s a bit like us trading with China.The only way that the East Europeans and the French,Greeks,Italians,Spanish and Portugese can afford to buy German exports is if the Germans pay them twice as much as those exports would be worth first to buy them.
He hasnt a clue....When I was trying to buy pork bellies at a reasonable rate, it was all going to Poland, because it was being subsidised by the EU...In effect, we were paying, so that the Eastern Europeans could have the best pork bellies, we were funding ourselves out of the market, just one incidence of how the EU does not work!!! Personally, I cant wait to see all this stop, the Eastern Europeans have had it too good for too long and being ignorant with it.
They may just know some of the superficial effects, but when you dig deep and are involved with trade at a meanigful level, they just dont have a clue. Then to be up against them in a labour market where they drive the rates down and do not care about it....Well, all I can say is that is going to be a cold place when we do not have to abide to EU regs............They dont like it up `em!
Carryfast:
Orys have you really looked at the maths of exactly where the funding for that East European ‘growth’ is coming from
Well, I can say “yes” propably, since I am currently doing my honours in Central and East European Studies on a British University
We had that discussion even here on trucknet before, and I provided you with some data IIRC, use search engine.
and exactly how much of a financial liability that the combined economies of France,Greece,Italy,Spain and Portugal are when set against the assets and GDP of Germany on the balance sheet.It’s a bit like us trading with China.
As if I believed that you had actually checked this data yourself 
The only way that the East Europeans and the French,Greeks,Italians,Spanish and Portugese can afford to buy German exports is if the Germans pay them twice as much as those exports would be worth first to buy them.
As would Obelix say, Ils sont fous, ces Allemandais. They should shut down all the factories and give that money to their own people for doing nothing, and they would live happily ever after 
Hm, wait, isn’t it what Britain did? They allowed their factories to be shut and pay 1000s of its citizens a fortune in benefits. Somehow I can’t see it’s working.
So maybe it makes sense what that Helmuts do? After all, it’s not only Germans. A British car dealer, with a help of British bank, offered that he lend me money so I can buy a car from him… Do you think he will go bust now?
att:
He hasn`t a clue…When I was trying to buy pork bellies at a reasonable rate, it was all going to Poland, because it was being subsidised by the EU…In effect, we were paying, so that the Eastern Europeans could have the best pork bellies, we were funding ourselves out of the market, just one incidence of how the EU does not work!!!
Actually you just proved that it’s you who has not a clue. Eastern European farmers got much less EU money than their Western European counterparts. I think the best subsided farmers are French with Germans and British farmers following closely.
orys:
Carryfast:
Orys have you really looked at the maths of exactly where the funding for that East European ‘growth’ is coming fromWell, I can say “yes” propably, since I am currently doing my honours in Central and East European Studies on a British University
We had that discussion even here on trucknet before, and I provided you with some data IIRC, use search engine.
and exactly how much of a financial liability that the combined economies of France,Greece,Italy,Spain and Portugal are when set against the assets and GDP of Germany on the balance sheet.It’s a bit like us trading with China.
As if I believed that you had actually checked this data yourself
The only way that the East Europeans and the French,Greeks,Italians,Spanish and Portugese can afford to buy German exports is if the Germans pay them twice as much as those exports would be worth first to buy them.
As would Obelix say, Ils sont fous, ces Allemandais. They should shut down all the factories and give that money to their own people for doing nothing, and they would live happily ever after
So maybe it makes sense what that Helmuts do? After all, it’s not only Germans. A British car dealer, with a help of British bank, offered that he lend me money so I can buy a car from him… Do you think he will go bust now?
att:
He hasn`t a clue…When I was trying to buy pork bellies at a reasonable rate, it was all going to Poland, because it was being subsidised by the EU…In effect, we were paying, so that the Eastern Europeans could have the best pork bellies, we were funding ourselves out of the market, just one incidence of how the EU does not work!!!Actually you just proved that it’s you who has not a clue. Eastern European farmers got much less EU money than their Western European counterparts. I think the best subsided farmers are French with Germans and British farmers following closely.
Farmers are so old hat…It is trade and how it is subsidised between poorer nations, of which Poland is one.
Farming only comes into it in relation to France, the other nations matter not, in finacial terms.
The EU is a failed experiment, yet one that has cost ordinary working class Brits a bloody fortune and some lives…It was only put in place to stop the bloody Germans from rising up again, but they have managed to do so because they are robots.
I for one hope that the EU crumbles, we have far more to gain, as we are a nation of oppotunists and a hardy nation at that, couple that with real financial force and history, we cannot fail.
Hopefully it will become uncomfortable for your kind to remain and you will leave soon.
Call it what you like, but I am an educated person who can see the truth and am not afraid to utter it.
The rest of Europe is useless when compared to the Brits, if we have to, we would shoot our own for abandoning ship, I just hope this philosophy remains intact in the struggle to be the cream once again!
orys:
Carryfast:
Orys have you really looked at the maths of exactly where the funding for that East European ‘growth’ is coming fromWell, I can say “yes” propably, since I am currently doing my honours in Central and East European Studies on a British University
We had that discussion even here on trucknet before, and I provided you with some data IIRC, use search engine.
and exactly how much of a financial liability that the combined economies of France,Greece,Italy,Spain and Portugal are when set against the assets and GDP of Germany on the balance sheet.It’s a bit like us trading with China.
As if I believed that you had actually checked this data yourself
The only way that the East Europeans and the French,Greeks,Italians,Spanish and Portugese can afford to buy German exports is if the Germans pay them twice as much as those exports would be worth first to buy them.
As would Obelix say, Ils sont fous, ces Allemandais. They should shut down all the factories and give that money to their own people for doing nothing, and they would live happily ever after
So maybe it makes sense what that Helmuts do? After all, it’s not only Germans. A British car dealer, with a help of British bank, offered that he lend me money so I can buy a car from him… Do you think he will go bust now?
Actually you just proved that it’s you who has not a clue. Eastern European farmers got much less EU money than their Western European counterparts. I think the best subsided farmers are French with Germans and British farmers following closely.
That seems to forget that we’re actually a net contributor to the EU so it makes no difference how much subsidy our farmers get and if we kept all our contributions instead we’d therefore obviously be ahead even before we’ve taken into account our trade deficit with the EU.
The bank might have lent you the money to buy a car but that’s not the same thing as ‘giving’ you what the car is worth anyway and then lending you what it’s worth as well which is effectively what the EU contributors and bail out funds are all about although having said that the figure of double what it’s worth is an understatement in EU terms of EU bail outs,subsidies,and loans to the poorer states required to keep them in enough money to be able to buy anything from anywhere in the EU like us or Germany.
I think Britain shut down it’s factories and coal mines on the blind faith by the bankers and governmwent ministers like Thatcher that just trying to run an economy on service industries and banking and a few manufacturing exports which were way outweighed by imports of manufactured goods and fuel supplies would keep us afloat.When in fact as we can see we are actually sinking under the weight of a massive trade deficit and the resulting debt crisis in the country’s balance of payments.
As we’ve seen the whole thing has been based on what the bankers and a few idiot politicians wanted and now even they are trying to jump ship when they’ve seen what the cost is estimated at by the EU money collectors rattling the tin and if I was wrong about that liability on the EU’s finances of places like Greece,Italy,and Spain etc etc they wouldn’t be trying to ask us to pay up to help the Germans out would they.
att:
Farming only comes into it in relation to France, the other nations matter not, in finacial terms.
Yeah, now farming is not important after i proved you wrong
Hopefully it will become uncomfortable for your kind to remain and you will leave soon.
Well, when your kinds will be playing the first violin in this country, I would not have any regrets
The rest of Europe is useless when compared to the Brits
All bow to the Mighty Britons!
orys:
att:
Farming only comes into it in relation to France, the other nations matter not, in finacial terms.Yeah, now farming is not important after i proved you wrong
Hopefully it will become uncomfortable for your kind to remain and you will leave soon.
Well, when your kinds will be playing the first violin in this country, I would not have any regrets
The rest of Europe is useless when compared to the Brits
All bow to the Mighty Britons!
I am not going to bother, as you clearly display little or no understanding of how the EU works unilaterally(Or not in my opinion)
You were late to the party with cap held out…Thats all we need to know.
Now I reckon there is a rock with your name on it, that you should quite clearly be residing under. I have wasted enough of my precious time.*
*That is what they call a superior British attitude…Get used to it.