Not signing the treaty

limeyphil:

orys:

Carryfast:
Before us it was Russia that was throwing good money after bad at the east european states and got out when they realised how stupid they were.

OMG, you really thinks that Russia was giving us money :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing: I haven’t met for long time anyone who has completely no clue about what he is talking about to such extend :wink:

i know what he’s on about when he says Russia. he means USSR.

Yes, I know this as well. I don’t think he is stupid to think that Russia after collapse of Soviet Union was able to give money to anyone :wink:

Tell me, do you also think that Soviet Union was supporting its satelite countries and the relation was profitable to them? :smiley:

muckles:
For somebody who seems to live in the past, you seem to forget we’ve always been a Country of imports and Exports.

Yep this bit looks correct to me.

muckles:
We went to war and invaded Countries so we could protect our trade.

Yep, and this bit too!

muckles:
What made Britain was using and exporting leading edge technology.

Not sure this bit is correct !!! Britain was probably worldwide leader in trade since maybe the 1600’s through to relativley recent history. The last leading edge technology we exported was probably the industrial revolution !! :laughing: :laughing:

muckles:
And that is how we’ll get ourselves out of this, not by closing the doors.

Hmm, not sure how this works. We’re an Island with a massive 60 million population and massive consumer thirst for products/goods. The means to consume these goods is being taken from us by business’s as they pack up and go elsewhere as its cheaper for them. This then leaves them with a shrinking consumer base. Biting the hand that feeds you i think its called !!!
Just pull out the EU, we’ll be fine.Switzerland, Finland do fine without being in it. And of course we thrived for hundereds of years before without being in it. EU is mostly good for business thats all, and as business’s grow and go global they do whats best for them, not the UK.

probably not orys, they were taking what they could get, however they would have supported some areas, only to support themselves in the long run.
we did it in america, africa, and india, and some other places.
what was WWII worth?
we went to war with germany to protect Poland, then we let the USSR take Poland for itself.
well worth a few million lives?
just swaped one nutter for another?

orys:

Carryfast:
Before us it was Russia that was throwing good money after bad at the east european states and got out when they realised how stupid they were.

OMG, you really thinks that Russia was giving us money :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing: I haven’t met for long time anyone who has completely no clue about what he is talking about to such extend :wink:

I always thought that the East European Countries got out when they had a chance after the Communist system of the USSR colapsed and they no longer feared military action if they deared stray from the Warsaw Pact.
But hey what do I know when trucknets has it’s very own Simon Schama.

limeyphil:
we went to war with germany to protect Poland, then we let the USSR take Poland for itself.

I don;t think we did Phil,i thought we declared war on Germany because they where about to invade us from France !! I could be wrong though, but it certainley wasn’t to help anyone out :smiley:
I’ve no idea about Russia and Poland though as they don’t concern me. Leave them to it, i say !!! :laughing:

He done right not to signed that treaty.
Here likes of ireland europe is running it irish dont have a say IMF bail out has dublin by the throat.
Deisal and eco tax is serious here at minate.
Irish road haulage is plannning a french stuck down closing off all ports and country in late jan 2012 .
Something that sould of been done long ago.

Mike-C:

muckles:
For somebody who seems to live in the past, you seem to forget we’ve always been a Country of imports and Exports.

Yep this bit looks correct to me.

muckles:
We went to war and invaded Countries so we could protect our trade.

Yep, and this bit too!

muckles:
What made Britain was using and exporting leading edge technology.

Not sure this bit is correct !!! Britain was probably worldwide leader in trade since maybe the 1600’s through to relativley recent history. The last leading edge technology we exported was probably the industrial revolution !! :laughing: :laughing:

muckles:
And that is how we’ll get ourselves out of this, not by closing the doors.

Hmm, not sure how this works. We’re an Island with a massive 60 million population and massive consumer thirst for products/goods. The means to consume these goods is being taken from us by business’s as they pack up and go elsewhere as its cheaper for them. This then leaves them with a shrinking consumer base. Biting the hand that feeds you i think its called !!!
Just pull out the EU, we’ll be fine.Switzerland, Finland do fine without being in it. And of course we thrived for hundereds of years before without being in it. EU is mostly good for business thats all, and as business’s grow and go global they do whats best for them, not the UK.

Seriously?

Last time I was in Finland I paid in euros.

Riho:
Seriously?

Last time I was in Finland I paid in euros.

Sorry mate, typing furiously i got it wrong. I meant Norway.

orys:

limeyphil:

orys:

Carryfast:
Before us it was Russia that was throwing good money after bad at the east european states and got out when they realised how stupid they were.

OMG, you really thinks that Russia was giving us money :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing: I haven’t met for long time anyone who has completely no clue about what he is talking about to such extend :wink:

i know what he’s on about when he says Russia. he means USSR.

Yes, I know this as well. I don’t think he is stupid to think that Russia after collapse of Soviet Union was able to give money to anyone :wink:

Tell me, do you also think that Soviet Union was supporting its satelite countries and the relation was profitable to them? :smiley:

I’m going by what I knew of the old Yugoslavia and I’m guessing that Russia was keeping the rest of the old Warsaw Pact moving and in fuel just as it was there.So how much was a gallon of Russian supplied diesel or petrol in Poland during the Warsaw Pact days compared to the price we were paying based on post 1973 OPEC world prices for just one example :question: .

As I remember it I’m sure that those Russian tankers ■■■■■■■ in Rijeka probably could have got a lot more for what was on board if they’d have taken it all to Italy instead and sold it there. :wink: :laughing:

Mike-C:

limeyphil:
we went to war with germany to protect Poland, then we let the USSR take Poland for itself.

I don;t think we did Phil,i thought we declared war on Germany because they where about to invade us from France !! I could be wrong though, but it certainley wasn’t to help anyone out :smiley:
I’ve no idea about Russia and Poland though as they don’t concern me. Leave them to it, i say !!! :laughing:

youtube.com/watch?v=qtrOJnpmz6s

muckles:
I always thought that the East European Countries got out when they had a chance after the Communist system of the USSR colapsed and they no longer feared military action if they deared stray from the Warsaw Pact.

Well, this is not completely true.

EE countries were trying all the time - just to mention event of East Berlin in 1948, Budapest in 1956, Prague in 1968. It was always stopped by force. In all this cases it was iether the intelligentsia, or the workers who were against the power.
The first change was in Poland, during the 1980 strikes, when workers united with the inteligentsia, so it was for first time possible to widely opose the goverment and at the same time make some sensible demands. All postulates were met by the goverment. But then people, on the wave of the changes, started to strike all over the place and demand more, more, and more. In the meantime the Eastern Bloc was getting deeper and deeper into the recession (West too, btw). Gen. Jaruzelski, then Polish PM feared that if he won’t put stop to this, Soviets will and even if not, his back benchers (is that good word in this context) will cause some troubles, so he introduced the martial law and cancelled it all. But the seed was already there, and people knew that if they want to overthrow the goverment they cannot fight with them, but oppose them in different ways.

Meanwhile, in Soviet Union the economical crisis was also causing troubles. So the soviet union, too busy with its own problems inside and outside the country (afganistan) was no longer a threat to its satelites, especially after Gorbatchev reforms - so you are right on this.

So about 1988 Polish Goverment saw no other option as to deal with the oppostition, which ended with Round Table negotiations and resulted in partially free elections of 4/06/1989 won withing the free bits totally by the opposition. This parliament lead Poland through the period of changes and in 1991 we had completely free elections.

The other countries followed the path, using innertia coming from Poland - Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary and, Finally, Eastern Germany - when they were practically surrounded by independent countries and their goverment saw that it has no longer power over the people - so they just let the wall fall. This was the end of the era, and this is why it became a symbol.

Soviet Union fell apart only later, 26/12/1991. So you was wrong on this one.

As for Soviet Union - this is interesting example we can learn from in context of our today’s discussion: everyone was less or more happy (as much as soviet standards allowed off course) to be together when the things were going well. But when the economical crisis of the 80s hit it really hard, nationalist thinking got stronger and stronger, as everyone was thinking that they will be much better off if they quit the, nomen omen, Union. As we can see today, altough the strongest member, Russia, is doing relatively well, none of the former Soviet Republic achieved a standard of living even close to the one they used to have in the golden era of the communism (60s/70s). Except for the Baltic States, which joined EU.

I think we should take this into consideration when analysing todays situation. Of course EU can not be directly compared to USSR, but I think there are some valid analogies between the two.

muckles:

orys:

Carryfast:
Before us it was Russia that was throwing good money after bad at the east european states and got out when they realised how stupid they were.

OMG, you really thinks that Russia was giving us money :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing: I haven’t met for long time anyone who has completely no clue about what he is talking about to such extend :wink:

I always thought that the East European Countries got out when they had a chance after the Communist system of the USSR colapsed and they no longer feared military action if they deared stray from the Warsaw Pact.
But hey what do I know when trucknets has it’s very own Simon Schama.

Blimey so maybe the East European states had loads of money and resources of their own and then joined NATO to push the Russians out during the 1960’s and 70’s and then joined the EU and then used some of it to each contribute as much into the EU and invest here as we have contributed to the EU and invested in eastern europe so far.

Carryfast:

Mike-C:

limeyphil:
we went to war with germany to protect Poland, then we let the USSR take Poland for itself.

I don;t think we did Phil,i thought we declared war on Germany because they where about to invade us from France !! I could be wrong though, but it certainley wasn’t to help anyone out :smiley:
I’ve no idea about Russia and Poland though as they don’t concern me. Leave them to it, i say !!! :laughing:

youtube.com/watch?v=qtrOJnpmz6s

Oh well, i got that wrong. Looks like them Poles have always been a thorn in our side !!! And here’s me listening to fellas who say the Poles helped us out in the war, who knew !!! :laughing:

Carryfast:
I’m going by what I knew of the old Yugoslavia and I’m guessing that Russia was keeping the rest of the old Warsaw Pact moving and in fuel just as it was there.So how much was a gallon of Russian supplied diesel or petrol in Poland during the Warsaw Pact days compared to the price we were paying based on post 1973 OPEC world prices for just one example :question: .

As I remember it I’m sure that those Russian tankers ■■■■■■■ in Rijeka probably could have got a lot more for what was on board if they’d have taken it all to Italy instead and sold it there. :wink: :laughing:

Well, if you have any idea about planning economy, you would know that the PRICE of the product wasn’t actually the biggest issue. The biggest problem was its availablility:


The price was irrelevant, since as it wasn’t free market, you could buy only limited amount, providing that it was actually delivered. If you wasn’t able to buy it (or to buy anything for that matter) due to hyperinflation you was loosing your money much quicker that you would, if you was able to buy expensive petrol on free market. This is why there is no point of comparing prices from the Planned economy and free market states. The prices were set by the goverment in complete detachement from the reality.

I would give you opposite question: what would you do if in 1976 in Britain most prices risen by 70 to 210% overnight? Because this is what happened in Poland in that year and which caused Radom riots.

As for the availability of oil: This was one of the tools of control by the Soviet Union - by cutting the Eastern Bloc countries from non-Soviet Approved sources of energy and raw materials, we were completely dependant of them. One wrong move and they close the tap and the whole country goes to standstill. Due to the infrastructure, Poland and many other EE countries are still overdependant of russian oil and gas, since the only pipes able to deliver required amount come from the East. But we are still not as bad as Ukraine for example, which is completely at Russian’s good will.

Carryfast:
Blimey so maybe the East European states had loads of money and resources of their own and then joined NATO to push the Russians out during the 1960’s and 70’s and then joined the EU and then used some of it to each contribute as much into the EU and invest here as we have contributed to the EU and invested in eastern europe so far.

Yeah, this is exactly what we do. In fact we are terribly rich, but we tend to hide our money. Many of us hide the money in socks, and this is why we wear flip flops - as we cannot find shoes big enough to fit the sock with leg and few thousands pounds in it :wink:

orys:
none of the former Soviet Republic achieved a standard of living even close to the one they used to have in the golden era of the communism (60s/70s). Except for the Baltic States, which joined EU.

It would be interesting to find out wether the old Warsaw Pact states were net contributors to the Soviet Union’s economy or wether it was the other way round.I think if we’d have asked Russia for the figures as to wether it was Russia that was subsidising those states economically or the other way round it would have been obvious that they were being subsidised by Russia and the reason why Russia let them go was because Russia knew it.

So how much do the Baltic States contribute to the EU and how much do they take out.

Mike-C:

muckles:
What made Britain was using and exporting leading edge technology.

Not sure this bit is correct !!! Britain was probably worldwide leader in trade since maybe the 1600’s through to relativley recent history. The last leading edge technology we exported was probably the industrial revolution !! :laughing: :laughing:

muckles:

That was my point, we lead the industrial revolution, and it’s what built the Empire, (right or wrong) We then rested on our laurels expecting people to buy our products because they were British and forgot about giving the customer what they wanted when they wanted it. Meanwhile our competitors were giving the customer what they didn’t realise they wanted.

Mike-C:
And that is how we’ll get ourselves out of this, not by closing the doors.

Hmm, not sure how this works. We’re an Island with a massive 60 million population and massive consumer thirst for products/goods. The means to consume these goods is being taken from us by business’s as they pack up and go elsewhere as its cheaper for them. This then leaves them with a shrinking consumer base. Biting the hand that feeds you i think its called !!!

We’ll never mass produce goods like the Chineese do although I agree that mass relocation of companies to low wage economies is short sighted, but that’s one of the major problems with the system we have it’s about short term profit.

It’s like the story about Fords.

CIO President Walter Reuther was being shown through the Ford Motor plant in Cleveland recently.
A company official proudly pointed to some new automatically controlled machines and asked Reuther: “How are you going to collect union dues from these guys?”
Reuther replied: “How are you going to get them to buy Fords?”

I remember leaving school in the early 80’s, we really wondered what we were going to do for employment. All the traditional employers were closing and there didn’t seem to be anything else.
By the early 90’s I was working in a cutting edge business,Digital Mapping and Navigation software and hardware, we exported our stuff all over the World, in fact most of our stuff was exported, Including to the US and China (a market that was just starting to open up) this job even the technology didn’t exist when I’d left school less than a decade earlier.
The company did go under and some work especially mapping did go abroad, but I know of many UK and UK based companies that are World leaders. Working in Motorsport you get to see loads of small Hi-tech engineering companies making stuff for the Automotive and Aerospace industry and much of it is exported. But of course the biggest problem they have is finding well educated and qualified people to do the job and develop the next idea. Which is where the Education and apprentience system is letting us down and of course the old fashioned idea that an Engineer works in overalls and is covered in oil and thus the social status of engineers is seen as low. This doesn’t happen in other Countries, Germany being one example.

Mike-C:
Just pull out the EU, we’ll be fine.Switzerland, Finland do fine without being in it. And of course we thrived for hundereds of years before without being in it. EU is mostly good for business thats all, and as business’s grow and go global they do whats best for them, not the UK.

Finland is in the EU, I think you mean Norway. But Norway has a very small population to spread it’s large income from it’s natural resources round.
Also both Norway and Switzerland pay the EU to be part of the EEA and have to abide by certain agreements to gain access to the EU markets.

Furthermore, membership in the EEA is very expensive:
Since 2004, Norway has had to pay close to
227 million euros annually to the EU, about ten
times the past amount. This money is primarily to
help the new EU accession countries to move up,
economically and socially, to the old EU members.
Despite this generous participation in EU politics,
Oslo must accept the decisions on the Internal
Market and implement them in national law. Only by
becoming an EU member could the country have a
voice in EU decision-making.

Switzerland imports more from the EU than it exports.

The EU is Switzerland’s largest trading partner, and Switzerland is the EU’s fourth largest. Switzerland accounts for 5.2% of the EU’s imports; mainly chemicals, medicinal products, machinery, instruments and time pieces. In terms of services, the EU’s exports to Switzerland amounted to €67.0 billion in 2008 while imports from Switzerland stood at €47.2 billion.

Carryfast:

orys:
none of the former Soviet Republic achieved a standard of living even close to the one they used to have in the golden era of the communism (60s/70s). Except for the Baltic States, which joined EU.

It would be interesting to find out wether the old Warsaw Pact states were net contributors to the Soviet Union’s economy or wether it was the other way round

It was found several times already, check it out. You have to remember though, that it was not only a cash flow but using the countries for Soviet Union politics. So it is very hard to estimate how much we loss by having a big friend taking care of us.

I give you just one example:
In 1971 Jelcz factory developed bus Jelcz 039:


it was very modern project and it could be an export hit if it was finally developed.

But the project has to be scrapped and Jelcz has to buy instead a license from French manufacturer Berliet:

Why?

Because French Communists had a shares in this company, and the company was not doing well at the time. To protect the French Communist’s assets Soviet Union ordered Poland to buy license from them, which saved the factory from being bust (well, at least for a while). As you can guess it was us, who had to fork out the money for that transaction.

How would you calculate how much we lost? How would you check today if the Jelcz 039 had potential to become international export hit and could bring Poland some income?

So how much do the Baltic States contribute to the EU and how much do they take out.

Not much so far. This is obvious.

Btw: you seems to be really unhappy when EE countries uses help from EU to get out of their situation after the communist era. Are you as much angry at Britain and Western Countries which were using American help from Marshall plan after the war?

orys:

Carryfast:
I’m going by what I knew of the old Yugoslavia and I’m guessing that Russia was keeping the rest of the old Warsaw Pact moving and in fuel just as it was there.So how much was a gallon of Russian supplied diesel or petrol in Poland during the Warsaw Pact days compared to the price we were paying based on post 1973 OPEC world prices for just one example :question: .

As I remember it I’m sure that those Russian tankers ■■■■■■■ in Rijeka probably could have got a lot more for what was on board if they’d have taken it all to Italy instead and sold it there. :wink: :laughing:

Well, if you have any idea about planning economy, you would know that the PRICE of the product wasn’t actually the biggest issue. The biggest problem was its availablility:

I would give you opposite question: what would you do if in 1976 in Britain most prices risen by 70 to 210% overnight? Because this is what happened in Poland in that year and which caused Radom riots.

As for the availability of oil: This was one of the tools of control by the Soviet Union - by cutting the Eastern Bloc countries from non-Soviet Approved sources of energy and raw materials, we were completely dependant of them. One wrong move and they close the tap and the whole country goes to standstill. Due to the infrastructure, Poland and many other EE countries are still overdependant of russian oil and gas, since the only pipes able to deliver required amount come from the East. But we are still not as bad as Ukraine for example, which is completely at Russian’s good will.

The price is relevant and there certainly weren’t any shortages of Russian supplied fuel in Yugoslav petrol stations when I was there and the stuff was as cheap as chips compared to the type of post 1973 OPEC led prices which we were paying here and the Yugoslav government wasn’t exactly known for being co operative with Russia.

But petrol shortages and 200% increases in prices at the pump sounds just like here during and after the 1973 OPEC oil embargo.

As you’ll have seen I’m a great believer in the planned economy in the sense that if we’re going to have wage restraint,which we’ve had here since the late 1970’s,then you need price restraint to go with it just as Peter Shore wanted unlike Dennis Healey and all those who’ve followed that stupid zb,or you eventually just end up in a situation whereby most people,except the very rich,can’t afford anything.Which is where we’re headed now with unlimited prices for things like housing,fuel,and food etc etc and limited wages in the sense of if British workers ask for more money to keep up with the cost of living the employers just give send the work to cheap labour countries or import cheap labour instead.

So ironically a free market economy can have flaws that can be as bad,if not worse,than a soviet style command economy.However the ironic thing is that with all the free market bs that the bankers shout about they don’t mind circumventing the free market in wage costs when it suits them by using imported cheap labour from outside the country or exporting jobs to cheap labour countries while just taking the bits they want related to a free market in all other types of prices.Which all seems to make the idea of acting in the national interest of a free market economy country a bit of a joke.

muckles:

Mike-C:

muckles:
What made Britain was using and exporting leading edge technology.

Not sure this bit is correct !!! Britain was probably worldwide leader in trade since maybe the 1600’s through to relativley recent history. The last leading edge technology we exported was probably the industrial revolution !! :laughing: :laughing:

muckles:

That was my point, we lead the industrial revolution, and it’s what built the Empire, (right or wrong) We then rested on our laurels expecting people to buy our products because they were British and forgot about giving the customer what they wanted when they wanted it. Meanwhile our competitors were giving the customer what they didn’t realise they wanted.

Mike-C:
And that is how we’ll get ourselves out of this, not by closing the doors.

Hmm, not sure how this works. We’re an Island with a massive 60 million population and massive consumer thirst for products/goods. The means to consume these goods is being taken from us by business’s as they pack up and go elsewhere as its cheaper for them. This then leaves them with a shrinking consumer base. Biting the hand that feeds you i think its called !!!

We’ll never mass produce goods like the Chineese do although I agree that mass relocation of companies to low wage economies is short sighted, but that’s one of the major problems with the system we have it’s about short term profit.

It’s like the story about Fords.

CIO President Walter Reuther was being shown through the Ford Motor plant in Cleveland recently.
A company official proudly pointed to some new automatically controlled machines and asked Reuther: “How are you going to collect union dues from these guys?”
Reuther replied: “How are you going to get them to buy Fords?”

I remember leaving school in the early 80’s, we really wondered what we were going to do for employment. All the traditional employers were closing and there didn’t seem to be anything else.
By the early 90’s I was working in a cutting edge business,Digital Mapping and Navigation software and hardware, we exported our stuff all over the World, in fact most of our stuff was exported, Including to the US and China (a market that was just starting to open up) this job even the technology didn’t exist when I’d left school less than a decade earlier.
The company did go under and some work especially mapping did go abroad, but I know of many UK and UK based companies that are World leaders. Working in Motorsport you get to see loads of small Hi-tech engineering companies making stuff for the Automotive and Aerospace industry and much of it is exported. But of course the biggest problem they have is finding well educated and qualified people to do the job and develop the next idea. Which is where the Education and apprentience system is letting us down and of course the old fashioned idea that an Engineer works in overalls and is covered in oil and thus the social status of engineers is seen as low. This doesn’t happen in other Countries, Germany being one example.

Mike-C:
Just pull out the EU, we’ll be fine.Switzerland, Finland do fine without being in it. And of course we thrived for hundereds of years before without being in it. EU is mostly good for business thats all, and as business’s grow and go global they do whats best for them, not the UK.

Finland is in the EU, I think you mean Norway. But Norway has a very small population to spread it’s large income from it’s natural resources round.
Also both Norway and Switzerland pay the EU to be part of the EEA and have to abide by certain agreements to gain access to the EU markets.

Furthermore, membership in the EEA is very expensive:
Since 2004, Norway has had to pay close to
227 million euros annually to the EU, about ten
times the past amount. This money is primarily to
help the new EU accession countries to move up,
economically and socially, to the old EU members.
Despite this generous participation in EU politics,
Oslo must accept the decisions on the Internal
Market and implement them in national law. Only by
becoming an EU member could the country have a
voice in EU decision-making.

Switzerland imports more from the EU than it exports.

The EU is Switzerland’s largest trading partner, and Switzerland is the EU’s fourth largest. Switzerland accounts for 5.2% of the EU’s imports; mainly chemicals, medicinal products, machinery, instruments and time pieces. In terms of services, the EU’s exports to Switzerland amounted to €67.0 billion in 2008 while imports from Switzerland stood at €47.2 billion.

I wouldn’t disagree with much you say. The Ford one though i heard an earlier version (not sure where you got your quote from) whereby Henry Fords says …“robots don;t buy motorcars”, but yeah, broadly the same analogy.
But a simplistic, although true overview of the situation is that we have exported jobs, outsourced goods/produce supply, imported labour and are now left with a massive employment problem. Even a 15 year old could work out what we should do, although EU rules prevent us actually doing a lot of it, maybe they call it ‘protectionism’ or something like that.
People tell lies, even officials. It would be hard to believe any official EU import/export figures as so much of this is fiddled. You can see evidence of this on this very forum if you havn’t seen it with your own eyes, trailers leaving with goods sealed and re imported with the same goods and seal intact. The government expected 10000 poles with the accesion of EU states? They made a website specifically for them, so they knew how to apply for work here, they never done that for any others, and luckily Tescos guessed better than the government, they where recruiting there before open day !!!
Of course large corporations pull the governments strings and not voters, so we will go whatever way ‘they’ decide. Pulling containers was quite an eye opener for me as i visisted closed down factories that once employed thousands, or hundreds of workers. I was there to take the machinery they previously used for export to the east. Quite sad when you looked at the empty canteens, massive clocking in rooms etc…all empty waiting demolition. But of course this is already widley known, this is why we’ve never had a referendum on the EU. So what if some can’t enjoy a second home in Spain, there a massive youth employment problem, no sign of it getting better any time soon. Some people think if you don’t want to be in the EU your a racist, or (i can;t think of the word) xenaphobe ? The truth is if we all looked after our own, then that would be the goal for everyone instead of large companies pushing us this way or that way. Everyone could do whats best for them which is not neccasarily at odds with each others aims. Thats the way i see it anyway.