delboytwo:
. . . . . . . . . . . . what i was trying to say is this is the only time that you could divert from a rest
I’d agree that you’d be right to say it’s the only time you could plan to interrupt a rest period, but as the thread is about nit picking - I’m talking about departing the legislation due to unforeseen circumstance.
what was the unforeseen circumstance that made you go over you hours then.
the reason i ask cos my mate got done for this by the boss he said he could not understand how you could go over by 1.5 hours on a 15 hour day.
tachograph:
A regular daily rest period is defined as any period of rest of at least 11 hours.
Where can I find - in the actual legislation - that definition of a “daily rest period”
Because, as you said . . . .
tachograph:
edit: The VOSA booklet is itself a guide to the regulations and it says somewhere that you should refer to the appropriate regulations, in this case those regulations are the (EC) No 561/2006 regs.
*Disclaimer This is not about who - amongst us - is right or wrong. it’s about having a very clear understanding of a grey area
I’ll indulge you. Its not a matter of a ‘grey area’ its a matter of ‘grey matter’ !!
(g) “daily rest period” means the daily period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time and covers a “regular daily rest period” and a “reduced daily rest period”:
By the letter of the law, why do I need to take 9 (or 11) hours off ?
Thats answered thus from the same link above…
Article 8
A driver shall take daily and weekly rest periods.
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.
If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that 24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours, then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a reduced daily rest period
With you posting a link to a previous discussion and querying going over your spread i’d assume this part of the same legislation is the thing you wanted to discuss?..
Article 12
Provided that road safety is not thereby jeopardised and to enable the vehicle to reach a suitable stopping place, the driver may depart from Articles 6 to 9 to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of persons, of the vehicle or its load. The driver shall indicate the reason for such departure manually on the record sheet of the recording equipment or on a printout from the recording equipment or in the duty roster, at the latest on arrival at the suitable stopping place.
You can actually go over your spread by any amount of hours you like. You will if questioned over it be expected to make a reasonable explanation. If you can do that then its fine !!
How can a guidance note contain the word must - does that make it a requirement
I thinks its confirming that if you have exeeded your “spread over” ie. cannot physically fit the required daily rest requirement into your 24 hour period due to over running it then you will still be required to take your minimum daily rest period (11 or 9 hours) at the end of your extended shift.
delboytwo:
what was the unforeseen circumstance that made you go over you hours then.
the reason i ask cos my mate got done for this by the boss he said he could not understand how you could go over by 1.5 hours on a 15 hour day.
That’s not strictly relevant Del.
Being “done” by one’s boss isn’t the same as being prosecuted.
And I think your mates boss needs to take a walk in the fields of real life. How about sitting for 2 or 3 or even 4 or more hours on the M25 clockwise, between say Junction 22 and 23, due to a mutli vehicle, mutli fatal accident, on a day you’ve planned to park up in South Mimms at say . . . 7pm on a 13 hour day.
dambuster:
Article 12 says you can depart those Articles in certain circumstances. Either you can, or you can’t. Which is it ?
You can depart from the part that says you should have the daily rest within the 24 hour period, it doesn’t say you can depart from the daily rest period altogether.
In the case you described you can’t have the required daily rest within the 24 hour period but you can still have the daily rest period of 11/9 hours.
How can a guidance note contain the word must - does that make it a requirement
I think the guidance note is a guide as to how the relevant part of (EC) No 561/2006 regulations should be interpreted by EC countries.
Just think its odd that the word MUST is in there as that usually means an ORDER
Well I suppose you could see it as an order to the relevant EC countries regulatory bodies, though I’m sure our government would rather see it as a polite request (they must obey)
Mike-C:
I’ll indulge you. Its not a matter of a ‘grey area’ its a matter of ‘grey matter’ !!
(g) “daily rest period” means the daily period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time and covers a “regular daily rest period” and a “reduced daily rest period”:
Grey matter ■■?
One section of legislation tells me I must have 11 hours rest.
Another section of the same legislation tells me I can - with condition - depart that (and other) particular section.
In the section that tells me I can depart, there is no mention of “extending my rest period to that equal to a period had I not departed”
I thought tachograph had given me the answer(s) by pointing out the definition of “daily rest periods” but . . . . . . . . I’m not sure.
There is a requirement to take daily rest. That is clearly defined. As are the requirements and definitions. No argument there.
My dilemma lies in that Articles 12 allows me to depart those requirements, which makes the definitions irrelevant to the argument.
delboytwo:
what was the unforeseen circumstance that made you go over you hours then.
the reason i ask cos my mate got done for this by the boss he said he could not understand how you could go over by 1.5 hours on a 15 hour day.
That’s not strictly relevant Del.
Being “done” by one’s boss isn’t the same as being prosecuted.
And I think your mates boss needs to take a walk in the fields of real life. How about sitting for 2 or 3 or even 4 or more hours on the M25 clockwise, between say Junction 22 and 23, due to a mutli vehicle, mutli fatal accident, on a day you’ve planned to park up in South Mimms at say . . . 7pm on a 13 hour day.
my mate told the boss that he had a prob on the road but as you probably know the only time bosses morn is when the work is not getting done some don’t live in the real world,
hold ups that you have no power of avoiding aren’t your fault is you stuck and go over you time, put a note on your tacho as soon as you can and just take the rest that you would have taken if nothing had happened that way you should be in the clear,
if the accented was recorded on the police computer and you got stopped i think you would be ok
dambuster:
Article 12 says you can depart those Articles in certain circumstances. Either you can, or you can’t. Which is it ?
You can depart from the part that says you should have the daily rest within the 24 hour period, it doesn’t say you can depart from the daily rest period altogether.
In the case you described you can’t have the required daily rest within the 24 hour period but you can still have the daily rest period of 11/9 hours.
Ah - this, I think, may be the crux of it. I would say it does I can “depart the daily rest period altogether”
I don’t see there being two things here. 1 - daily rest with the 24 hours, and 2 - daily rest period (other)
A daily rest is defined as 11 hours of uninterupted rest, free to dispose of time etc etc (I know, I know)
Article 8 tells me when/where/how I have to take that rest.
Articles 12 tells me I can depart from Article 8 (and other Articles)
delboytwo:
what was the unforeseen circumstance that made you go over you hours then.
the reason i ask cos my mate got done for this by the boss he said he could not understand how you could go over by 1.5 hours on a 15 hour day.
The example I gave earlier was just that. An example.
The last one I can remember, and the one about the “discussion” in the office was . . . … . .
I left Felixstowe at let’s say 6.45pm with the intention of parking up at Alconbury. A regular journey of 1 hour 50 minutes. I always “allow” that to be a 2 hour plan. In theory arriving Alconbury around 8.35/8.45 My 15 was up at 9pm. I would have alternatives that comply with parking laws and company policy at Beacon Hill (30 min) a yard at Woolpit (45/50 min) Bury Stedmunds [sic] (55/60 min) Cambridge Services (1.35/45) Plenty of “options” should unforeseen circumstance arise. You would think so
All went well up to the BP garage at Newmarket. I’d not missed a beat at that point so stopped for a “comfort stop” and to grab something for tea, as the catering is at the moment a little hit and miss. Using perhaps half of my “spare” Spare that I always try to write into the planning of the majority of my journeys.
However, as with the best laid plans of mice and men, after coming out of the garage I found the A14 to be shut at it’s junction with the A11 southbound.
The diversion was via A11, then across to pick up M11 north and rejoin the original route at the M11/A428/A14 split. The two possibilities I thought of, even though outside “company policy” were full.
Not to worry, that still left Cambridge services. Nah !! Absolutely mobbed, and I didn’t fancy the argument about coach park/clamping etc etc (It might have been a Thursday)
I did think about Brampton hut but decided that would probably be full too, and the running time from the roundabout at Huntingdon (Spittles ■■) to Brampton would be the same as carrying on to Alconbury.
dambuster:
Articles 12 tells me I can depart from Article 8 (and other Articles)
Article 12 allows you to depart from articles 6 to 9 “to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of persons, of the vehicle or its load”, given that the guidance notes state that you must have the daily rest period I imagine you’d find that the law could and would interpret that as meaning that not having the required amount of daily rest goes beyond what’s necessary to ensure the safety of the vehicle or it’s load.
Provided that road safety is not thereby jeopardised and to
enable the vehicle to reach a suitable stopping place, the driver may depart from Articles 6 to 9 to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of persons, of the vehicle or its load.
tachograph:
Interesting point you’re making though
I thought it was
I’m inclined to agree with you about “them” interpreting my view as going beyond what’s necessary.
You know what … . . . . . I’ve rolled my eyes many times in cafes/truckstops/coffee rooms at people struggling to “understand” the current regulations. I think these are the clearest written set we’ve ever had. I’m sure there are many here familiar with the debacle that was the argument between “any” 4.5, and “each” 4.5 but this is the first time since they were published that I’ve had to succumb to the “interpretation” theory.
i am now standing outside the headmasters office waiting 
