I have been dipping into and reading this forum for a month but thought I should register and contribute now I have got my provisional C sorted and am cramming for the theory test.
I have to say how glad I am to have found this forum. The discussions on learning in flatbed uprated 7.5t’ers or larger rigid boxes has changed my mind already on the training company I was going to use for my training.
A year ago I trained for my National CPC to act as the transport manager for my brother in laws newly set up business running two wagons. I liked the staff at the training centre so enquired about training costs for C and C+E. The prices where reasonable but when I asked about vehicles they used I didn’t like the idea of the wagon & drag as I believe it’s called. I started my working life in farming and remember passing my ground crop sprayer license using a quad bike pulled trailer sprayer of 250litres with a 10m boom width. Imagine my panick the first time I was asked to use the 2000litre 24m boom self propelled sprayer with all its hydraulic and electronic bits and bobs! I bent an end section of boom wrapping it around the only tree in a 30 acre field
Anyway, I rang around a few and asked a few questions about vehicles and the like. I quite like the look of one company that has several wholely owned training centres across the country. I have also found out that they where selected by the TRL as training assessors for the new Trucksim truck simulator they where developing. Makes you think they are well respected? I dont know if I should name the company so I’ll hold off, but if anyone knows from the clues who I mean and has any comments + or - then pm me.
I hope to get my theory test out of the way by the end of the month and an assessment drive to see how much work I need!
Finally, my intension is to get my C+E as soon as possible. What are peoples experiences with going straight into C+E training after getting your C? Is it better to get some good rigid experience first or go straight in while “you are in training mode” as one person has put it?
jonks:
Finally, my intension is to get my C+E as soon as possible. What are peoples experiences with going straight into C+E training after getting your C? Is it better to get some good rigid experience first or go straight in while “you are in training mode” as one person has put it?
Jonks
I went straight onto Class 1 after passing 2,even now i have never driven a rigid apart from when i did my training.The only problem you’ll probably find is getting a job with less than 2 years experience.
I took my CE two weeks after my C and would recommend doing it that way. I did take my test in a wagon and drag, probably wouldn’t recommend it although I passed first time whereas it might have taken a few attempts in a proper artic so that’s one thing in it’s favour.
Thanks all. I think I’ll try going straight to C+E,but that all depends on how much I spend getting my C
I think it interesting that mrjp passed first time in the wagon and drag. Is this why they use these combinations to improve there first time pass rates at the expense of real world experience?
When I did my C+E 12 years ago we did not have to do the C first, so I only ever learnt in an Artic, can’t say it was a big problem, it was how it always used to be done so I would go straight from one to the other.
As for the wagon and drag, I drove one for the first time after about 7 years in an artic and it was hard work getting used to it for the first couple of hours, after that it all fell into place so I cant really see there being too much of a problem doing it in reverse, it is like all vehicles that are new to you, just take the fisrt few hours nice and steady to find out how it handles and what it does that you are not expecting.
it is like all vehicles that are new to you, just take the fisrt few hours nice and steady to find out how it handles and what it does that you are not expecting.
I agree, yet it seems from others comments on other posts that passing in the flatbed or flatbed & trailer can put them at a disadvantage getting work after!
This two year experience worries me. Is this for both C and C+E drivers wanting work and is it two years in that class of vehicle or generally? Has this got anything to do with younger drivers and insurance risk or do older drivers who have retrained find it just as difficult?
The 2 yr thing seems to be regardless of licence type, so it is worth getting C+E if you can aford it, it is down to insurance - or that is what they would have you believe, the company I worked as a transport manager for had a policy of 2 years and over 21 for van drivers, but it turned out to be only comapny policy not an insurance requirement, so I was eventually allowed to use younger and less expierenced drivers. When I got my C+E the 2 yr thing was still about, but if yu look hard enough you will find a company that is willing to take you on, and as the agency’s get bussier they will tend to give you a start as well.
jonks:
I think it interesting that mrjp passed first time in the wagon and drag. Is this why they use these combinations to improve there first time pass rates at the expense of real world experience?
They are regarded as easier so therefore they should increase their first time passes although the driving schools would also argue that the sole purpose of driver trianing is to get a pass so the candidate also benefits. IMO even if you pass in a full size artic you won’t gain much real world experience in a week anyway although you’d obviously be a step further down the learning curve.
Welcome to trucknet jonks!
The 2 year thing is across the board and passing in a wagon and drag won’t affect you getting work it is more likely to affect your preparation for lorry driving as a career.
would not agree with you there ladytrucker(moderator)
i had candidates get back in touch with me after trying to find work who have been told to get out of the cab by the company assesors when they have asked about the vehicle and explained they passed in wagon and drag.
on second thoughts i now refere to candidates accidents, after passing their test with the rear end swing, on puddle jumpers(wagon a drag) the trl follows the unit end unlike artics with tautliner trls, another issue is that turning left would be very hazardous if not taught in an artic, how many lights and pedestrians should be mowed down when the trl takes out everthing on the left.
learners are taught wagon and drag not artic, if a learner drives wagon and drag like artic on test this would result in a fail.
so then i ask what would happen when the learner enters the real world.
its easy enough to say that he can do short hours on learning artic after the test but try and find a school that will do that.
a school in southport rejects learners sent to them that have passed in wagon and drag, why? he says why should hes vehicle be damaged and the gear box damaged for a couple of hours work only.
i would agree with him on that i would not take out a wagon and drag in a artic for just a few hours pay.
given this then how does the prospective employer feel about this?
I am only going on the experiences of people I know, both in person and of course over the years of my envolvement with these forums. A wagon and drag is the training vehicle of choice and is becoming more so as time goes by. I trained in an artic and that has been the bulk of my work ever since, my partner trained in a wagon and drag (which concerned me during his training) but he has gone on to do a variety of work on all classes and types of vehicles This also applies to other friends, I am convinced that the attitude of the learner makes a lot of difference. Surely it is wrong for the learner to think that their training will prepare them for the work place, their instructors job is to get them through their licence and that is what they do in essence. The job on whole is so diverse, with widespread avenues of opportunity that surely it is the candidates ability to pick up information, adapt and progress that makes them employable, not the vehicle they passed their test in.
True enough that a newly passed driver who trained in an artic will only take 47 shunts at a bay when your wagon and drag trained driver may take 53 but in the early days inexperience is as inexperience does and there really are no short cuts. When you have got through the difficulties of convincing an employer that what you lack in experience you can make up in aptitude and their investment in you will result in a conciencious driver who is willing to learn and therefore an asset to the company then surely you are on the road to a successful career.
Sorry, instructor, but my knowledge and experience is contrary to yours and matches Ladytrucker’s as well. At one point I would have agreed with you, but not any more.
There is also the fact that wagon and drag is once more gaining in popularity in this country, thanks to greater cubic capacity and ever falling margins, as well as ever tighter access to delivery points. Demountable boxes are once more coming into favour for parcel and other firms who trunk, and container hauliers are seeing the financial benefits of carrying 2x 20ft boxes to a greater and greater extent.
Whilst anyone with a Class One can drive either vehicle, most companies who have wagon and drag will prefer a driver with even the tiniest bit of driving experience on that combination. So the w&d trained newbie is ahead of the game on that front for starters…a situation which will only be magnified by the steady retirement of the old Class 1 restricted/Class 2 licence holders who have made this area their speciality.
Again, LT is quite right to point out that licence training is in no way shape or form a preparation for the real world of commercial driving, nor should it be expected to fulfil that role. Roll on the Driver CPC, that’s what I say!
The main concern companies have with w&d trained newbies (aside from general lack of experience, which is the same whatever you trained in) is that they may well have never been taught safe coupling methods with a tractor/semitrailer. This can be simply solved, however, and is perhaps something w&d trained new passes should consider. Less than half a day’s training would do it, so no need to spend a fortune…or knock on a few doors locally and ask if anyone’s willing to teach you for a nominal fee - you never know, showing that sort of initiative, common sense and keeness might even land you an unexpected job!
still would not agree, wagon and drag is for volume as dentressangle will have it, where more can be carried with less weight making the vehicle more suitable to the needs of certain manufactorers ect.
these vehicles are ok for yard tips or loading bays in very very large d,c’s where bays are left empty.
can you imagine the caos that would follow if wagon and drag was the choice of transportation across the board.
for training purposes the wagonand drag does not mean it is so much easier that all will pass. when it comes to test each person is assesed on their driving on the vehicle in which they drive if a candidate has some problems with a w&d then what would they be like in an artic.
in your own words the w&d is choice then the new driver would have to find a company that uses drawbar which is limited in the uk in comparrison to the artic.
put yourself in the possition of owner driver or what ever and tell me you would employ a newbie taught on w&d to drive a artic without the experience.
instructor:
still would not agree, wagon and drag is for volume as dentressangle will have it, where more can be carried with less weight making the vehicle more suitable to the needs of certain manufactorers ect.
these vehicles are ok for yard tips or loading bays in very very large d,c’s where bays are left empty.
can you imagine the caos that would follow if wagon and drag was the choice of transportation across the board.
for training purposes the wagonand drag does not mean it is so much easier that all will pass. when it comes to test each person is assesed on their driving on the vehicle in which they drive if a candidate has some problems with a w&d then what would they be like in an artic.
in your own words the w&d is choice then the new driver would have to find a company that uses drawbar which is limited in the uk in comparrison to the artic.
put yourself in the possition of owner driver or what ever and tell me you would employ a newbie taught on w&d to drive a artic without the experience.
Help me out here , you are saying it would seem that training in an artic is preparation for employment when a wagon and drag is not but surely to be even slightly prepared for the real world you wouldn’t have a chap with a clip board telling you to take the first available exit, you would have a lottery of gear boxes (depending which wagon you were issued in the morning) and you would be fully loaded with three axles and a fridge to contend with on a foggy day.
IMHO you have enough to contend with getting yourself to a suitable national standard without giving the people the false belief that a week long training course equips you in any way for the real world. Surely the best a good pupil can walk away with from their training is a licence and a good attitude and any subsequent progression will be the result of hard work and an inquiring mind.
How has the variety of work you have done other than HGV training compared with the way you have taught people?
if a week course does not equipe the candidate for the real world then what chance has wagon and drag, we all know the real world learning starts in the real world when unacompanied when own choices have to be made, si how does the learner decide upon what he should do in an artic when he/she is trained in w&d.
the corner cutting ratio in the vehicle i taught in was only inches more than the unit end, full lane disapline adhered to whilst in a artic blocking/central or 1&2 lanes used.
so when 3 inches becomes 3 or 4 foot what happens next? as the rules of the road have altered to accomodate any given vehicle.
coupling and uncoupling is diferent and people have to ask the company assesors how to operate the fith wheel
gear box ratio, how many artics have straight forward 5/6 speed box, where not even simple range change can be used.
now think about the candidate trying to sell himself/herslf to a boss for that job he/she needs, think about the company assesor who has to take him/her out a draw you own conclusion as to what the assesor would think and do.
think about when the candidate says ive never driven an artic before.
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