New driver and anxious

Carryfast:
Too much zb local work not enough drivers wanting to do it and what take up there is totally dependent on who is the most desperate ( or naive ).

Not enough decent distance work and way too many drivers wanting to do it.On that note yes I’d always rather take ( a lot ) less money for distance bulk pallet runs than do local multi drop/building deliveries/handball loads etc etc at any wage.

Not having enough distance work and having too many drivers wanting to do it, are two sides of exactly the same coin.

Increasing the amount of distance work available will just draw more people in, and be back as we started with too many wanting to do the distance and nobody wanting to do the undesirable multi-drop work.

If you’ll tolerate poor wages and conditions now, you’ll still tolerate them afterwards, that won’t change.

Carryfast:

The-Snowman:
Well that’s this thread [zb] then

It’s concluding as it began.More than one driver turned up to do an increasingly rare decent job at face value.While the local multi drop/labourer/driver etc etc sector moans about a driver shortgage.Who would have thought it.

Nope it’s because [emoji348][emoji773]s like you and Rjan keep hijacking threads and turning them into [emoji90]shows

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Rjan:

Carryfast:
Too much zb local work not enough drivers wanting to do it and what take up there is totally dependent on who is the most desperate ( or naive ).

Not enough decent distance work and way too many drivers wanting to do it.On that note yes I’d always rather take ( a lot ) less money for distance bulk pallet runs than do local multi drop/building deliveries/handball loads etc etc at any wage.

Not having enough distance work and having too many drivers wanting to do it, are two sides of exactly the same coin.

Increasing the amount of distance work available will just draw more people in, and be back as we started with too many wanting to do the distance and nobody wanting to do the undesirable multi-drop work.

If you’ll tolerate poor wages and conditions now, you’ll still tolerate them afterwards, that won’t change.

What we’ve actually got is a deliberately created imbalance within the industry in which it is LOSING TOO MUCH distance work while CREATING TOO MUCH local/ multi drop zb work.Because the former is being made increasingly financially unviable for operators to want to take on.

The end result being little if any chance of career progression from local to distance,which is how such unattractive jobs were often filled in the past and disillusionment and a collapse in employee morale.You know the same disillusionment which you are also referring to.But which you also obviously won’t acknowledge the reasons for because it doesn’t suit your own political agenda to do so.Great so keep on calling for ever higher wages within the unattractive dregs which the industry increasingly has left.Until you reach the point where the local distribution/delivery sectors also become not only unviable for operators to find drivers to do at any wage,but they also couldn’t afford to pay them even if they could find them.Effectively thereby just transferring the fuel cost disincentive from distance work to the ( futile ) wage cost increase disincentive of local work.All that to keep the rail unions and their big business bosses happy.That’ll fix it.

Meanwhile it’s business as usual in that the next even rarer distance bulk job on the agency ends up with three drivers turning up to do it and ensuing arguments as to which it will be.While all the usual suspects go on moaning about the ‘driver shortage’. :unamused:

Rjan:
Like I say, the decency of jobs in this game hasn’t been determined by those in rail, nor by fuel duties.

This idea that the bosses would pay us more or give us better jobs if only their taxes is lower is tosh. They’d just pocket the cash themselves - if not by haulage bosses themselves, then by the bosses that employ the services of haulage companies. And cut the public services we need to boot.

It’s clear that punitive road fuel duties are doing exactly as intended in forcing more and more road transport operators to reduce the distances they run in whatever way if not close down completely.Usually to the detriment of the quality of the driver’s job.As can be seen within the numerous job adverts for ‘drivers’ required for equally numerous types of boring,if not also ridiculously physically demanding,local work.Varying from multi drop retail to building materials deliveries including as I said the dreaded scaffolding and shuttering driver/loader/site labourer type of job.

While you obviously apply double standards in the case of rail bosses in that regard.It’s ok for them to pocket the proceeds of their fuel tax breaks v road.While public services lose out again in the form of road transport avoiding punitive fuel taxation by going for more local work. :unamused:

scottie0011:

Carryfast:

The-Snowman:
Well that’s this thread [zb] then

It’s concluding as it began.More than one driver turned up to do an increasingly rare decent job at face value.While the local multi drop/labourer/driver etc etc sector moans about a driver shortgage.Who would have thought it.

Nope it’s because [emoji348][emoji773]s like you and Rjan keep hijacking threads and turning them into [emoji90]shows

While your well thought out post did so much to contribute to the discussion,as to how and why two drivers ended up squabbling over one agency job.In a driver shortage environment including pages full of numerous ‘opportunities’ for ‘drivers’ on every major job site out there. :unamused:

Carryfast:

Rjan:
[…]

What we’ve actually got is a deliberately created imbalance within the industry in which it is LOSING TOO MUCH distance work while CREATING TOO MUCH local/ multi drop zb work.Because the former is being made increasingly financially unviable for operators to want to take on.

Rubbish. It’s always unviable for operators to take on for work under good conditions, if the same work will be done under ■■■■ conditions.

What makes you think in an industry twice the size, say, and still predominated by Tory voters who are supporters of the free market mechanism and resistant to organisation and solidarity, that drivers will be any less willing to work under exactly the same conditions as now?

The end result being little if any chance of career progression from local to distance,which is how such unattractive jobs were often filled in the past and disillusionment and a collapse in employee morale.

But your problem is not progression, it’s the nature of the industry when governed by free markets, the absence of unionisation, and, certainly for the sort of easy work that you want to do, easy to find people willing and able to do it (and who can be quickly trained to do it to an adequate standard, particularly if it is high-volume trunking between fixed places along motorways).

I don’t understand why you fixate on fuel duty as being the cause of all the industry’s ills. The rail industry doesn’t have good terms because it pays no fuel duty, but because many of it’s key workers have skills that cannot be cheaply trained or easily casualised, and because all attempts at attacking them (or the immediate colleagues of the key workers) have resulted in solid strikes.

That’s not to say every part of rail remains well paid and conditioned. I gather track labourers are just as casualised as haulage nowadays, but even they must have training, experience, and a modicum of gumption and discipline to work together, to stay alive, and to keep things moving, so it is still often slightly better paid than equivalent roles outside the industry.

I grant you that if the trackbeds were ripped up in a big bang, there would be a call for all experienced hands in the industry whilst they drew in new people, but what government is going to do this, and why? It would hardly be a vote winner because you’d be attacking as many workers as you favour.

Even if it were brought about by some diktat, many of those new hands would be unemployed rail workers, which would make up a huge new reservoir of recruits, and you’d be complaining again that there are too many workers chasing too little good work.

The fact is in high-volume industries where the skills to do the work can be taken for granted, and where one man is easily interchangeable with another, the only thing that has ever delivered fruits is firstly a willingness to be solid, and secondly the willingness to vote in governments that promote solidarity and the conditions under which it forms.

Without it they’ll pick you off one-by-one, just as the Nazis gassed people in batches, small enough that their own men and guns could be brought to bear on each batch and on any individual troublemaker within a batch.

Carryfast:

scottie0011:

Carryfast:

The-Snowman:
Well that’s this thread [zb] then

It’s concluding as it began.More than one driver turned up to do an increasingly rare decent job at face value.While the local multi drop/labourer/driver etc etc sector moans about a driver shortgage.Who would have thought it.

Nope it’s because [emoji348][emoji773]s like you and Rjan keep hijacking threads and turning them into [emoji90]shows

While your well thought out post did so much to contribute to the discussion,as to how and why two drivers ended up squabbling over one agency job.In a driver shortage environment including pages full of numerous ‘opportunities’ for ‘drivers’ on every major job site out there. :unamused:

Agreed.

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Rjan:
[…]

What we’ve actually got is a deliberately created imbalance within the industry in which it is LOSING TOO MUCH distance work while CREATING TOO MUCH local/ multi drop zb work.Because the former is being made increasingly financially unviable for operators to want to take on.

Rubbish. It’s always unviable for operators to take on for work under good conditions, if the same work will be done under [zb] conditions.

What makes you think in an industry twice the size, say, and still predominated by Tory voters who are supporters of the free market mechanism and resistant to organisation and solidarity, that drivers will be any less willing to work under exactly the same conditions as now?

The end result being little if any chance of career progression from local to distance,which is how such unattractive jobs were often filled in the past and disillusionment and a collapse in employee morale.

But your problem is not progression, it’s the nature of the industry when governed by free markets, the absence of unionisation, and, certainly for the sort of easy work that you want to do, easy to find people willing and able to do it (and who can be quickly trained to do it to an adequate standard, particularly if it is high-volume trunking between fixed places along motorways).

I don’t understand why you fixate on fuel duty as being the cause of all the industry’s ills. The rail industry doesn’t have good terms because it pays no fuel duty, but because many of it’s key workers have skills that cannot be cheaply trained or easily casualised, and because all attempts at attacking them (or the immediate colleagues of the key workers) have resulted in solid strikes.

That’s not to say every part of rail remains well paid and conditioned. I gather track labourers are just as casualised as haulage nowadays, but even they must have training, experience, and a modicum of gumption and discipline to work together, to stay alive, and to keep things moving, so it is still often slightly better paid than equivalent roles outside the industry.

I grant you that if the trackbeds were ripped up in a big bang, there would be a call for all experienced hands in the industry whilst they drew in new people, but what government is going to do this, and why? It would hardly be a vote winner because you’d be attacking as many workers as you favour.

Even if it were brought about by some diktat, many of those new hands would be unemployed rail workers, which would make up a huge new reservoir of recruits, and you’d be complaining again that there are too many workers chasing too little good work.

The fact is in high-volume industries where the skills to do the work can be taken for granted, and where one man is easily interchangeable with another, the only thing that has ever delivered fruits is firstly a willingness to be solid, and secondly the willingness to vote in governments that promote solidarity and the conditions under which it forms.

Without it they’ll pick you off one-by-one, just as the Nazis gassed people in batches, small enough that their own men and guns could be brought to bear on each batch and on any individual troublemaker within a batch.

There can be no doubt that distance work by it’s nature is often nicer all round for the driver.From the scenic tour every day aspect to the relative few drops generally also being all mechanically handled.That’s just regarding the comparison of distance bulk pallet deliveries.

As opposed to loads of boring,stressful local urban deliveries,which on the law of averages and nature of the work will also mean lots of manual handling.

While the issue of relative fuel costs certainly does create a disincentive regarding the former.Let alone when the laughable disincentive to distance container and trunking work,in the form of vehicle length and gross weight limits, added to the fuel cost anomaly v rail,is taken into account.

On that note the road transport industry goes on degenerating into more of a race to the bottom regarding quality of work on offer than it does wages.In which it’s obvious that the reason why we’ve got more than one driver turning up to do a distance bulk pallet type delivery job in a driver shortage environment has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the wage offered.

While good luck with telling the agency driver lumbered with yet another local building deliveries job that he should be grateful for having the Hiab.Let alone Scaffolding,or local multi drop retail job,that the RMT and ASLEF will back him as a Unite member to go on break when he gets to every site to deliver or collect because he’s exempt from all labouring duties.

As opposed to saying fine let’s go for LHV’s,such as being able to carry 3 20ft or a 20ft and a 40 ft container load and allow all O licenced trucks to use red diesel and then see what happens.What are you so afraid of. :unamused:

The new driver was maybe ‘‘anxious’’ before, …but I bet he’s bored bloody ■■■■ less now after reading this. :smiley:

People stopped…

Reading this thread about 4 days ago.

I wanna know where scottie gets the bell end smilie from? It really should be in with the standard smilie range we have here.

robroy:
The new driver was maybe ‘‘anxious’’ before, …but I bet he’s bored bloody [zb] less now after reading this. :smiley:

To be fair the ‘update’ moved the topic on from being an issue of ‘anxiety’ to one of too many drivers and too few decent jobs.

It’s my bet that this argument,let alone all the other arguments,between the OP,the agency,the other drivers,and too few clients offering a decent job and too many wanting a building site/yard labourer with an HGV and a Hiab ticket.Or shop stockroom/warehouse assistant with an HGV to run around town,is still rumbling on let alone even started properly yet. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Carryfast:

robroy:
The new driver was maybe ‘‘anxious’’ before, …but I bet he’s bored bloody [zb] less now after reading this. :smiley:

To be fair the ‘update’ moved the topic on from being an issue of ‘anxiety’ to one of too many drivers and too few decent jobs:

No it didn’t. You did.

Carryfast:
It’s my bet that this argument,let alone all the other arguments,between the OP,the agency,the other drivers,and too few clients offering a decent job and too many wanting a building site/yard labourer with an HGV and a Hiab ticket.Or shop stockroom/warehouse assistant with an HGV to run around town,is still rumbling on let alone even started properly yet. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Once again, word soup with the square root of eff all to do with the o/p.

the maoster:

Carryfast:
It’s my bet that this argument,let alone all the other arguments,between the OP,the agency,the other drivers,and too few clients offering a decent job and too many wanting a building site/yard labourer with an HGV and a Hiab ticket.Or shop stockroom/warehouse assistant with an HGV to run around town,is still rumbling on let alone even started properly yet. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Once again, word soup with the square root of eff all to do with the o/p.

Leave it. CF has found a big worded essay that explains why nobody is banging on his door to give him what he thinks is an easy job. Have you noticed how all his posts are now about long distance single drops? And not a single mention of Fordist Stalinist Cobinist Federalist Europhiles…

He wouldn’t know the passenger door from the drivers door.

the maoster:

Carryfast:
To be fair the ‘update’ moved the topic on from being an issue of ‘anxiety’ to one of too many drivers and too few decent jobs:

No it didn’t. You did.

Can you read ?.You know the bit about the OP and another driver turning up to do the same job in a so called ‘driver shortage’ environment.Skip that question. :unamused:

Carryfast:

the maoster:

Carryfast:
To be fair the ‘update’ moved the topic on from being an issue of ‘anxiety’ to one of too many drivers and too few decent jobs:

No it didn’t. You did.

Can you read ?.You know the bit about the OP and another driver turning up to do the same job in a so called ‘driver shortage’ environment.Skip that question. :unamused:

Well my agency are constantly sending out texts with shifts available if anyone is free and I will sometimes get asked if I can work on days ive said im unavailable.
All in, according to you, an environment of too few jobs, too many drivers.
Get out of that one Perry.
Two drivers turning up for 1 shift is an agency ■■■■ up, nothing more, and certainly not proof of the driver shortage being false.

the nodding donkey:

the maoster:

Carryfast:
It’s my bet that this argument,let alone all the other arguments,between the OP,the agency,the other drivers,and too few clients offering a decent job and too many wanting a building site/yard labourer with an HGV and a Hiab ticket.Or shop stockroom/warehouse assistant with an HGV to run around town,is still rumbling on let alone even started properly yet. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Once again, word soup with the square root of eff all to do with the o/p.

Leave it. CF has found a big worded essay that explains why nobody is banging on his door to give him what he thinks is an easy job. Have you noticed how all his posts are now about long distance single drops? And not a single mention of Fordist Stalinist Cobinist Federalist Europhiles…

He wouldn’t know the passenger door from the drivers door.

Some women dream of a night of passion with George Clooney, I dream of stealing the F button from Carry’s keyboard!

Carryfast:

Rjan:

There can be no doubt that distance work by it’s nature is often nicer all round for the driver.From the scenic tour every day aspect to the relative few drops generally also being all mechanically handled.That’s just regarding the comparison of distance bulk pallet deliveries.

It’s horses for courses, and I disagree to be honest. Up and down the M1 between two bleak RDCs is not my idea of fun and scenery.

As opposed to loads of boring,stressful local urban deliveries,which on the law of averages and nature of the work will also mean lots of manual handling.

Local work may involve manual handling but not necessarily. It’s less intrinsically necessary nowadays precisely because of mechanisation and standardisations like pallets and so on.

While the issue of relative fuel costs certainly does create a disincentive regarding the former.Let alone when the laughable disincentive to distance container and trunking work,in the form of vehicle length and gross weight limits, added to the fuel cost anomaly v rail,is taken into account.

If you make the vehicles longer or heavier you’ll reduce the number of drivers required for any given amount of freight - acting against the whole purpose of this job creation scheme.

As opposed to saying fine let’s go for LHV’s,such as being able to carry 3 20ft or a 20ft and a 40 ft container load and allow all O licenced trucks to use red diesel and then see what happens.What are you so afraid of. :unamused:

I’m afraid you’ll carve up another sector, one where wages and solidarity happen to be stronger, just because you think it’ll give you a decent trunk run. Not to mention cutting taxes, and also replacing what is fundamentally a suitable technology for long-distance freight with an unsuitable one. It’s the politics and economics of madness.

And it won’t improve your conditions, because you’re not doing anything to address why those conditions are poor in the first place. They are not poor because the boss is subject to taxes. They are not poor because the boss can’t run long vehicles. They are poor because your poor conditions represent a saving which goes into the boss’s pocket, as will any savings from reduced taxes or longer vehicles. Low wages, too, represent a saving that goes into the boss’s pocket, or at least allows him to steal work from bosses paying better wages.

All the time you spend dwelling on these cockamamie solutions that don’t involve controlling bosses, both their decisions about conditions and their decisions about where savings go, will lead to nothing changing.

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Rjan:

There can be no doubt that distance work by it’s nature is often nicer all round for the driver.From the scenic tour every day aspect to the relative few drops generally also being all mechanically handled.That’s just regarding the comparison of distance bulk pallet deliveries.

It’s horses for courses, and I disagree to be honest. Up and down the M1 between two bleak RDCs is not my idea of fun and scenery.

As opposed to loads of boring,stressful local urban deliveries,which on the law of averages and nature of the work will also mean lots of manual handling.

Local work may involve manual handling but not necessarily. It’s less intrinsically necessary nowadays precisely because of mechanisation and standardisations like pallets and so on.

While the issue of relative fuel costs certainly does create a disincentive regarding the former.Let alone when the laughable disincentive to distance container and trunking work,in the form of vehicle length and gross weight limits, added to the fuel cost anomaly v rail,is taken into account.

If you make the vehicles longer or heavier you’ll reduce the number of drivers required for any given amount of freight - acting against the whole purpose of this job creation scheme.

As opposed to saying fine let’s go for LHV’s,such as being able to carry 3 20ft or a 20ft and a 40 ft container load and allow all O licenced trucks to use red diesel and then see what happens.What are you so afraid of. :unamused:

I’m afraid you’ll carve up another sector, one where wages and solidarity happen to be stronger, just because you think it’ll give you a decent trunk run. Not to mention cutting taxes, and also replacing what is fundamentally a suitable technology for long-distance freight with an unsuitable one. It’s the politics and economics of madness.

And it won’t improve your conditions, because you’re not doing anything to address why those conditions are poor in the first place. They are not poor because the boss is subject to taxes. They are not poor because the boss can’t run long vehicles. They are poor because your poor conditions represent a saving which goes into the boss’s pocket, as will any savings from reduced taxes or longer vehicles. Low wages, too, represent a saving that goes into the boss’s pocket, or at least allows him to steal work from bosses paying better wages.

All the time you spend dwelling on these cockamamie solutions that don’t involve controlling bosses, both their decisions about conditions and their decisions about where savings go, will lead to nothing changing.

Make your mind up.Firstly you’re saying that LHV’s,in addition to removal of road fuel duty,would create less jobs for truck drivers.Then you’re saying that the move would obviously actually create more balance regarding the long haul road freight sector v rail thereby actually creating a net increase in truck driving jobs and in the quality of those jobs.

On that note it seems strange as to why you’re conveniently all for taking truck drivers’ jobs and replacing them with far fewer train driving jobs.While at the same time trying to hypocritically make the case that LHV’s mean less truck drivers’ jobs but which you know is bs anyway.

Don’t see anything within your reasoning which isn’t just all about lumbering truck drivers with mainly dumbed down,boring,job options,often involving ridiculous levels of ‘other duties’,just to protect your chosen few in the form the rail unions.The result being drivers voting with their feet.Hence a shortage of and an oversupply of drivers for,‘the right work’ and a surplus of and shortage of drivers,for ‘the wrong work’.Which will only get worse while we continue with the cross Party anti road transport consensus committed to returning the industry to its place in the 1930’s and before.

The-Snowman:
Well my agency are constantly sending out texts with shifts available if anyone is free and I will sometimes get asked if I can work on days ive said im unavailable.
All in, according to you, an environment of too few jobs, too many drivers.
Get out of that one Perry.
Two drivers turning up for 1 shift is an agency ■■■■ up, nothing more, and certainly not proof of the driver shortage being false.

No pages of adverts both employed and agency,mostly trying to fill vacancies for local multi drop/retail/building deliveries/labourer/driver jobs,while two drivers turn up for one distance,5 drops per shift,all fork lifted,job says something else.Unless you’re blind and deaf or just can’t read.