Netto's south emsall

[jessicas_dad]

nettos again… i was in there today, ( no self tipping for me ) anyway there was a female driver aged roughly early 30’s and quite small and skinny and she had the right hump…

turns out she had a full load from britvic all heavy tins and bottles of pop. she couldnt shift the pallets and wouldnt use the auto pallet trucks so netto’s had to tip it for her. on the notes when they signed them they also wrote that the company would be charged £25.00 for netto’s staff tipping the trailer.

[rick_b]

Netto, Aldi and Lidl are all self tipping and personally I don’t mind it. Electric pallet truck no lifting and a bit of banter (usually) with other drivers. Mostly whinging about the self tipping bit but at least it’s conversation and a bit of exercise.

Don’t mind it at all, at least you know you’re getting tipped and not hanging about!

[Lucy]

Why didn’t she just use the electric truck? I know you have to sign that you know what you’re doing, but it isn’t rocket science to suss out. I love it when dozy birds like that give the rest of us a bad name.

[scottishcruiser]

Im with Rick. If I was allowed id tip/load myself everywhere as at least you know the jobs getting done.

[gezt]

i deliver them said trucks and as lucy say not rocket science even i can handle one so no excuse and if there is another prob her company shouldnt send her there ,but if its her attitude maybe she would be better off in a knitting club. i have seen many many female drivers who do the job right with no ■■■■■■■■ (excuse pun) . best one drove a antar tank trailor with a chieftan onboard and parked it far better than male counterparts so maybe this lady should blush a tad

[donutuk]

What training do you get given before operating said trucks?

Do Netto etc train you or is it your own companies responsibility?

How do you stand insurance wise if you injure yourself, or someone else?

[scottishcruiser]

You sign the disclaimer saying you know how to use one, therefor presuming your employer should have trained you? So if injured, guessing you’d get sweet FA… As for this lass goes, maybe she didnt know how to use one? So why use something she doesnt know how to use? Then again they aint rocket science but hey if she had no training she did the right thing… What if it was you she whacked into and broke your ankle?

[mike-c]

Good questions mate, i’m pretty sure this is the way it goes…

DonutUK:
What training do you get given before operating said trucks?

None, but they ask you to sign a disclaimer that you are trained or capable of operating the electric truck before they give you the keys to it. If you don’t sign they give you a manual pump truck.

DonutUK:
Do Netto etc train you or is it your own companies responsibility?

Netto don’t train you. I’m assuming its in the carriers terms and conditions that they will be required to use such equiptment to unload.

DonutUK:
How do you stand insurance wise if you injure yourself, or someone else?

Again i’m guessing, but if you have signed to say you are competent and trained to use such equiptment then the liability insurance would fall own your own employers insurance policy as you are working and doing what you are employed and requested to do.

My own experiences there where dismal,i didn’t mind self tipping. I did mind being allocated a bay and then having to stand for an hour with an electric truck whilst the one checker they had (when i have been there several times) was trying to check all the bays and the aisles infront of my bay where full so no where to unload my goods. And then same scenario when i did get my stuff off and into the aisles, wait an hour for a checker. I dare say guys who do this as a regular tip and only deliver a few pallets at a certain time will be in and out no problem, i found it a pain in the arse. In practice it doesn;t work as smoothly as the self tip and go suggests.

[krankee]

As stated, it is not ‘Rocket Science’. And personally, I’d rather be doing something than sitting in some ‘scummy’ room bored witless.

Basic principles (as I see them) are:-

1. Assess for damage/danger.
2. Ensure ‘Leveller’ is sufficiently onto bed of vehicle.
3. Assess each pallet for stability before moving.
4. When operating in ‘following’ mode, walk to the side with arm operating the controls outstretched.
5. When lowering pallet, ensure one’s feet, and those of any others , are clear.

The question of Insurance is a minefield. It is not a matter as to whether or not Insurance is in force. For any act that an employee undertakes, at whatever premises, there will (assuming that the premises/employer is not a ‘rogue’ operation) be Insurance applicable to that undertaking.

The reason that I refer to it as a ‘Minefield’ is due to the fact that there is normally a requirement to identify ‘Negligence’, which is where the Lawyers come in.

Concerning the circumstances under discussion, would the RDC be absolved of any responsibility merely upon the signing of a waiver, without even carrying out any elementary questioning as to what training the person had received, or asking basic questions as to how the machinery should be operated. I suggest not. Therefore, there would be a demonstrable degree of ‘Negligence’ on their part.

As to the Haulier. If they were aware/had an obligation, to provide a driver that could operate such machinery, and failed to inform, and failed to ‘brief’ them, even in the basic steps as outlined above, then they also could be considered culpable.

The basic fact is, that from the time you arrive for work, and until you leave, you are Insured for whatever actions (within reason and subject to Health & Safety) you are requested to undertake. The only factors that would ‘diminish’ a claim would centre upon, basically ‘doing something stupid’ or failing to adhere to advised principles.

As an example. Our trailers, although having pull-out steps, have an under run bar at an appropriate height. They also have a ‘hand hold’ built in at two height locations. They also have ‘non-slip’ material on the ‘docking strip’. Hence I never use the steps. Visiting a collection point recently, they wheeled out a ‘stair’ device for me to climb, open the gate, and enter the trailer. Halfway up, deeming that it was on unsuitable ground, I descended and reverted to my ‘tried & trusted’ method. Had I, in the then process, fallen, then the customer in question could have argued that they were absolved from responsibility because I had refused to make use of ‘their’ preferred ‘method of entry’. That would then have been countered by the argument that the state of repair of the surface on which they were operating such equipment, in itself, constituted a danger.

The matter of ‘Negligence’ is a big, no, vast subject. Lord Donaldson wrote a book virtually dedicated to the subject.

And I have no intention of rewritting it here.

[bloodoodle]

I contacted the HSE in 2006 on behalf of ‘Our lot!!’ and here is what I got back from them.

Ref: KDEN-6VUDW4

Dear Ms Nicholson

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the use of electric pallet trucks.

There is nothing under health and safety law stating that delivery drivers
can not use electric pallet trucks on some one else’s site. However the
following information may be of some use:

There is a general duty of care under Section 4 of the Health and Safety at
Work etc Act 1974 which states:
General duties of persons concerned with premises to persons other than
their employees.

4. – (1) This section has effect for imposing on persons duties in
   relation to those who –

(A) are not their employees; but

(B) use non-domestic premises made available to them as a place of work or
as a place where they may use plant or substances provided for their use
there,

and applies to premises so made available and other non-domestic premises
used in connection with them.
(2) It shall be the duty of each person who has, to any extent, control of
premises to which this section applies or of the means of access thereto or
egress therefrom or of any plant or substance in such premises to take such
measures as it is reasonable for a person in his position to take to
ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that the premises, all means
of access thereto or egress therefrom available for use by persons using
the premises, and any plant or substance in the premises or, as the case
may be, provided for use there, is or are safe and without risks to health.
(3) Where a person has, by virtue of any contract or tenancy, an obligation
of any extent in relation to –

(A) the maintenance or repair of any premises to which this section applies
or any means of access thereto or egress therefrom; or

(B) the safety of or the absence of risks to health arising from plant or
substances in any such premises;

that person shall be treated, for the purposes of subsection (2) above, as
being a person who has control of the matters to which his obligation
extends.
(4) Any reference in this section to a person having control of any
premises or matter is a reference to a person having control of the
premises or matter in connection with the carrying on by him of a trade,
business or other undertaking (whether for profit or not).

A copy of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (ISBN 0105437743,
£12.35) is available from Stationery Office (HMSO):

Stationery Office Ltd
PO Box 29
Norwich
NR3 1JN
Telephone: 0870 242 2345
Internet: www.tsoshop.co.uk

In relation to your query regarding what insurance the employer will need
the following information may be of some use:

The following guidance gives basic information on employers liability
insurance:

Most employers are required by the law to insure against liability for
injury or disease to their employees arising out of their employment.

Does the law apply to me?
You need employers’ liability insurance unless you are exempt from the
Employers’ Liability Compulsory Insurance Act. The following employers are
exempt:

• most public organisations including government departments and agencies,
  local authorities, police authorities and nationalised industries;

• health service bodies, including National Health Service trusts, health
  authorities, Family Health Services Authorities and Scottish Health Boards
  and State Hospital Management Committees;

• some other organisations which are financed through public funds, such as
  passenger transport executives and magistrates’ courts committees;

• family businesses, ie if your employees are closely related to you (as
  husband, wife, father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, stepfather,
  stepmother, son, daughter, grandson, granddaughter, stepson, stepdaughter,
  brother, sister, half-brother or half-sister). However, this exemption
  does not apply to family businesses which are incorporated as limited
  companies.

How much cover do I need?
You must be insured for at least £5m. However, you should took carefully
at your risks and liabilities and consider whether you need insurance cover
of more than £5m. In practice, most insurers offer cover of at least £10m.

Do I need to tell my employees that I have employers’ liability insurance?
When you take out or renew a policy, your insurer will give you a
Certificate of Employers’ Liability Insurance. This must state clearly the
minimum level of cover provided and the companies covered by the policy.
You must display a copy of the Certificate of Insurance where your
employees can easily read it.

What happens if I do not have employers’ liability insurance?
The Health and Safety Executive enforces the law on employers’ liability
insurance and HSE inspectors will check that you have employers’ liability
insurance with an approved insurer for at least £5m. They will ask to see
your certificate of insurance and other insurance details.
You can be fined up to £2500 for any day which you are without suitable
insurance. If you do not display the certificate of insurance or refuse to
make it available to HSE inspectors when they ask, you can be fined up to
£1000.

Reference: HSE40, Employers Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969: A
Guide for Employers’, free for a single copy. This can be downloaded online
at the following web address:

hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse40.pdf

In relation to your query regarding what insurance the store will need the
HSE have not produced anything specific. However the following
organisation may be of some use:

British Insurance Brokers Association
14 Bevis Marks
London
EC3A 7NT
Tel: 0207 623 9043
Fax: 0207 626 9676
e-mail: enquiries@biba.org.uk

Internet: biba.org.uk/

In relation to your query regarding types of licences or certificates of
training, required by a ‘visiting’ driver before he/she is allowed to use
electric pallet trucks the HSE have not produced anything. However the
following information may be of some use:

Regulation 9 of the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998
(PUWER) is concerned with training. The Regulation states:

(1) Every employer shall ensure that all persons who use work equipment
have received adequate training for purposes of health and safety,
including training in the methods which may be adopted when using the work
equipment, any risks which such use may entail and precautions to be taken.

(2) Every employer shall ensure that any of his employees who supervises or
manages the use of work equipment has received adequate training for
purposes of health and safety, including training in the methods which may
be adopted when using the work equipment, any risks which such use may
entail and precautions to be taken.

The accompanying guidance states:

What is ‘adequate training’?
It is not possible to detail here what constitutes ‘adequate training’ as
requirements will vary according to the job or activity and work equipment
etc. In general, you will need to:

(a) evaluate the existing competence of employees to operate the full range
of work equipment that they will use;

(b) evaluate the competence they need to manage or supervise the use of
work equipment; and

(c) train the employee to make up any shortfall between their competence
and that required to carry out the work with due regard to health and
safety.

Account should be taken of the circumstances in which the employee works.
For example do they work alone or under close supervision of a competent
person?

When is training necessary?
Training needs are likely to be greatest on recruitment. However, training
needs are also required:

(a) if the risks to which people are exposed change due to a change in
their working tasks; or

(b) because new technology or equipment is introduced; or

(c) if the system of work changes.

Also, you should provide refresher training if necessary. Skills decline
if they are not used regularly. Pay particular attention to people who
deputise for others on occasions - as they may need more frequent refresher
training than those who do the work regularly.

Reference: L22, Safe use of work equipment: Provision and Use of Work
Equipment Regulations 1998, Approved Code of Practice and Guidance, ISBN
0717616266, £8.00.

Other relevant publications:

INDG291 - Simple guide to the Provision and Use of Work Equipment
Regulations 1998
INDG229 - Using work equipment safely

These leaflets can be downloaded online at the following web address:

hse.gov.uk/pubns/puwerind.htm

Further to this the following may also be of some use:

Regulation 13 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations
1999 is concerned with capabilities and training. The legislation states:

Regulation 13 Capabilities and training

1. Every employer shall, in entrusting tasks to his employees, take into
   account their capabilities as regards health and safety.

(2) Every employer shall ensure that his employees are provided with
adequate health and safety training -
(a) on their being recruited into the employer’s undertaking; and
(b) on their being exposed to new or increased risks because of -
(i) their being transferred or given a change of responsibilities within
the employer’s undertaking,
(ii) the introduction of new work equipment into or a change respecting
work equipment already in use within the employer’s undertaking,
(iii) the introduction of new technology into the employer’s undertaking,
or
(iv) the introduction of a new system of work into or a change respecting a
system of work already in use within the employer’s undertaking.

(3) The training referred to in paragraph (2) shall -
(a) be repeated periodically where appropriate;
(b) be adapted to take account of any new or changed risks to the health
and safety of the employees concerned; and
(c) take place during working hours.

The accompanying Approved Code of Practice (ACOP) and Guidance goes onto
explain:

ACOP 13
When allocating work to employees, employers should ensure that the demands
of the job do not exceed the employees’ ability to carry out the work
without risk to themselves or others. Employers should take account of the
employees’ capabilities and the level of their training, knowledge and
experience. Managers should be aware of relevant legislation and should be
competent to manage health and safety effectively. Employers should review
their employees’ capabilities to carry out their work, as necessary. If
additional training, including refresher training, is needed, it should be
provided.

Health and safety training should take place during working hours. If it
is necessary to arrange training outside an employee’s normal hours, this
should be treated as an extension of time at work. Employees are not
required to pay for their own training. Section 9 of the Health and Safety
at Work Act prohibits employers from charging employees for anything they
have to do or are required to do in respect of carrying out specific
requirements of the relevant statutory provisions. The requirement to
provide health and safety training is such a provision.

Guidance 13
The risk assessment and subsequent reviews of the risk assessment will help
determine the level of training and competence needed for each type of
work. Competence is the ability to do the work required to the necessary
standard. All employees, including senior management, should receive
relevant training. This may need to include basic skills training,
specific on-the-job training and training in health and safety or emergency
procedures. There may be a need for further training eg about specific
risks, required by other legislation. For those working towards National
and Scottish Vocational Qualifications, the Employment National Training
Organisation has designed stand-alone training units in health, safety and
the environment. These vocational units are for people at work who are not
health and safety professionals/specialists.

Reference: L21, Management of health and safety at work, ISBN 0717624889,
£8.00.

The following free leaflet may also be useful:
INDG345 - Health and safety training : what you need to know

This leaflet can be downloaded online at the following web address:

hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg345.pdf

Copies of these publications are available from HSE Books:

HSE Books,
PO Box 1999,
Sudbury,
Suffolk CO10 2WA
Tel: 01787 881165
Fax: 01787 313995
Email: hsebooks@prolog.uk.com
hsebooks.com

There are three methods of payment currently available from HSE Books:

1. Via the post, bank cheques/ postal orders made payable to HSE Books
2. Via the telephone, American Express, Master Card or Visa
3. Existing approved credit account customers may use the Banks Automated
   Clearing System (BACS).
   However, new accounts are not being set up.

Many of the free publications can also be downloaded from the HSE Website:
www.hse.gov.uk

As an information service we are only able to provide information that is
published in HSE regulations or associated guidance. Therefore unable to
advise you on the HSE stance on the described common methods of delivery
and the
requirement for lorry drivers to have to unload their own lorry using the
delivery points equipment?

For advice/ interpretation on the above subject you will need to speak to
your enforcing authority for health and safety.

The enforcing office which covers your workplace is dependent on the nature
of the activities carried out at that workplace.

The HSE enforce over premises such as transport companies.

A map/list of all HSE regions is available on the web at:

hse.gov.uk/contact/maps/index.htm

I hope this helps, but if you require further assistance, please do not
hesitate to contact this address again or telephone HSE Infoline on 08453
450055.

Yours sincerely

Kelly

HSE Infoline

Hope this helps

Pat

[dambuster]

Nah - Won’t do it.

I’ve no objection to dragging pallets to the back of a trailer, or - would you believe - to the back of a container. But I work for *insert name of random transport company. I don’t work for Netto/Lidl/Any other discount supermarket.

If a no frills, we’ll just put the pallets on the store floor, discount supermarket wants to reduce it’s operating costs so that can sell their cheap, low quality. short-dated foodstuffs even more cheaply by not employing “enough” warehouse staff, that’s up to them, and all fine and super-dandy as far as I’m concerned.

But don’t for one second use me as free labour. Offer me an amount of money to work in your warehouse, and I’ll decide to accept, or reject, that offer. I can almost guarantee that I will reject. I can certainly guarantee the amount would need to be higher than the spurious £25 “bill” they would want to send.

And as an aside, had I wanted to be able to line up pallets so one of their long forked machines can pick up half a dozen in one hit, I’d have taken a job in a warehouse.

[wheel_nut]

It will be interesting to see how the cargo securing regulations and the self tipping warehouses will work together. Let us say a trailer loaded with canned beans, dog food and bottled water. Will Lidl, Netto and Aldi allow you to run in and out of the warehouse to undo your straps, or are they going to let you go inside the trailer with the curtains open?

OK. in most cases the straps will be removed before being allocated a bay but in my example of 3 collections where the pallets may be cross strapped.

Anyone who has had a fully strapped trailer on a warehouse ramp will understand what I am getting at.

I remember in my days at United Carriers, one customer only had the facility to load pallets on a flatbed trailer, yet we only had the facility to offload the trailer in the depot with a pallet truck & the loading bay ramp, even in 1975 this practice was stopped by H&S

[Lucy]

I’m still not seeing the problem here. Now for us, self-tip/driver assist is part of our job description anyway and we get paid extra when we do it, but even if we weren’t I’d rather know what was going on in there than be marrooned on the bay or in a waiting room with no idea what, if anything, was happening. If I can put my hand on my heart and say that, despite a physical disability, I fail to see why anyone else has a problem with it? Or are these the same drivers who refuse to change a bulb and wouldn’t botch up a cardboard numberplate when the need arises to get the job done?

What is particularly unfortunate about this is that the driver concerned was female. Now much as we may like to say that it makes no differences and we’re all just drivers blah blah blah - and I’m the first to trot out those lines, believe me - the fact attracted attention as that was the first point seen as relevant by the OP and no disrespect to him at all for that, as it’s probably what everyone else in the place was thinking as well. For the record, I did the same as she did for the same reasons at the same place many years ago, in my first week back at work a fortnight after giving birth to my daughter. However I didn’t half feel a complete ■■■ and have never done it again since, despite being under instructions from my then Traffic Manager to hold that line.

The hard fact of the matter is that women still stick out like sore thumbs the second they cause ripples, and they HAVE to accept that sometime they need to bite the bullet and get on with it for the benefit of every other lass who has to come in behind them. It’s a put up or shut up situation, and much as we shouldn’t have to pull out the stops to keep level ■■■■■■■, we do, and that’s simply a hard fact of life.

All she achieved is to make it harder for the rest of us. Well done, girl. Thanks a lot. That’s why this crap gets perpetuated, and why people like me who haven’t had a day’s sick in over 3 years get shoved down the “favourite” list for work against lads who are as healthy as horses but bail out at the slightest twinge of a hangover. It stinks, but it’s a fact of life, and if as a woman you can’t face that and act accordingly, I’m sorry but you shouldn’t be in a wagon at all.

Rant over. For now.

[paulfromwire]

I do all three self tips (Aldi Netto & Lidl) and also self tip at GIST (M&S) due to the fact GIST wont go in the back of a taut. My main gripe is the warehouse staff leave too much stock in the goods in lanes. I’ve had a load refused (& probably Netto charged twice) because I arrived on my booking time with three hours duty time remaining to be told that they couldn’t put any stock away so couldn’t tip. They endorsed my POD accordingly.

[semtex]

I’ve only done Aldi’s a couple of times, but regarding the electric pallet trucks the following has happened on bothe occassions.

Aldi - Know how to use one of these mate?

Me - No Mate, first time

Aldi - Right, this makes you go back and forward, this raises the forks up and down, pallets go over there. Just a quick signature to say you know how to use the equipment. Have fun.

As people have said…not rocket science

[jessicas_dad]

to be fair luce i only mentioned the lady was female cos she was a frail little thing who wouldnt have been able to shift 1 ton pallets of pop if her life depended on it. she should have realised before she set of with the load the she wouldn be able to shift it.

reason being why i posted the topic is because ive seen a few of these women, when i was agency for asda there is a girl there who looks about a size 8/10 if that and i always wonder how she got on trying to shift the ambient pallets as they are sometimes over a ton and falling over.

[globby_480]

you see no one will help each other be it male or female!! shame on you jd mind you, you are a lazy container driver if you was worth your salt you would have help"d her never mind the excuses shame on you shame on you jd, i bet you are one of these drivers what get so close to the poor down hill kettle boiling driver broke dowm on the hard shoulder aswell funny what 11 cans of cider makes you say, lol, you know the saying… a drunken man and a dieing man always tells the truth!!!

i hope your not sexist JD!!! oh my oh my i hope

[garnerlives]

globby 480:
you see no one will help each other be it male or female!! shame on you jd mind you, you are a lazy container driver if you was worth your salt you would have help"d her never mind the excuses shame on you shame on you jd, i bet you are one of these drivers what get so close to the poor down hill kettle boiling driver broke dowm on the hard shoulder aswell funny what 11 cans of cider makes you say, lol, you know the saying… a drunken man and a dieing man always tells the truth!!!

i hope your not sexist JD!!! oh my oh my i hope

Drunk at 5.30pm I take my hat off to you good sir

[bloodoodle]

Lucy says

It stinks, but it’s a fact of life, and if as a woman you can’t face that and act accordingly, I’m sorry but you shouldn’t be in a wagon at all.

Oh how I agree with you

And it has got worse in recent years.

When I first started, once you’d ‘proved yourself’ then you helped the lads and they helped you.
It seems no-one is prepared to give anyone a hand now.

At the end of the day, both Lucy and I, and a few others we could name, would have died before we would have admitted we couldn’t do it.
We shouldn’t have to but we were well aware of that when we took the job on, and STILL decided to do it.

Pat

[globby_480]

garnerlives:

globby 480:
you see no one will help each other be it male or female!! shame on you jd mind you, you are a lazy container driver if you was worth your salt you would have help"d her never mind the excuses shame on you shame on you jd, i bet you are one of these drivers what get so close to the poor down hill kettle boiling driver broke dowm on the hard shoulder aswell funny what 11 cans of cider makes you say, lol, you know the saying… a drunken man and a dieing man always tells the truth!!!

i hope your not sexist JD!!! oh my oh my i hope

Drunk at 5.30pm I take my hat off to you good sir

3/4 there anything bis better than having to watch X factor well at least they will all sound the same and look the same if nothing else