pollystag:
Heres another leyland mystery truck if ever is seen one! Ha
In France, until the '60s, it was common to fit a cab coming from a car, van or truck on an ex-US Army wrecker; just to provide more comfort to its driver. Some results were doubdtful, but others rather good-looking. I wonder how that assembling of what looks like a Morris Oxford (very similar to our Peugeot 404) on a Leyland chassis managed to get the MOT agreement for road use!
Now, here’s another “mystery truck”, the picture of which waa awaiting this thread somewhere in my library.
Definitely 5 axles, but how many are driven?
pete smith:
How about this one?
That looks like a Scammell Handyman chassis with an Ergo cab grafted on to me Pete.
There used to be an aircraft refueling tanker parked up in Greenford, I used to unload Holsten in there, but it wasn’t Butler’s Warehousing. It may have been Courage, whatever, I’m sure it was a Foden and ex Esso, but I wouldn’t risk a fiver on it, it was a big old beast though.
newmercman:
pete smith:
How about this one?That looks like a Scammell Handyman chassis with an Ergo cab grafted on to me Pete.
There used to be an aircraft refueling tanker parked up in Greenford, I used to unload Holsten in there, but it wasn’t Butler’s Warehousing. It may have been Courage, whatever, I’m sure it was a Foden and ex Esso, but I wouldn’t risk a fiver on it, it was a big old beast though.
I’m not sure about the Leyland,I THINK I have read somewhere it was some sort of prototype out of the factory.
The Foden Python was new to Heathrow and that photo was taken at Weston Super Mare when it was owned by B.W.O.C,this is according to a caption on a photo on flickr!,Cheer’s Pete
newmercman:
pete smith:
How about this one?That looks like a Scammell Handyman chassis with an Ergo cab grafted on to me Pete.
There used to be an aircraft refueling tanker parked up in Greenford, I used to unload Holsten in there, but it wasn’t Butler’s Warehousing. It may have been Courage, whatever, I’m sure it was a Foden and ex Esso, but I wouldn’t risk a fiver on it, it was a big old beast though.
I’m not sure about the Leyland,I THINK I have read somewhere it was some sort of prototype out of the factory.
The Foden Python was new to Heathrow and that photo was taken at Weston Super Mare when it was owned by B.W.O.C,this is according to a caption on a photo on flickr!,Cheer’s Pete
double post 
newmercman:
pete smith:
How about this one?That looks like a Scammell Handyman chassis with an Ergo cab grafted on to me Pete…
The step ring suggests Scammell, but the tank is more Beaver than Handyman:
google.co.uk/search?q=scamm … 17&bih=706
google.co.uk/search?q=leyla … oE8ehtM%3A
The wheelarch details look a bit more professional than the average grafted-on job, too. Could it be, as Pete suggests, a factory prototype for the Marathon? The reg. is about right for that- they would have been playing about with prototypes in 1970, if the model was to be launched in 1973. Surely not- hasn’t everything about Leyland been written multiple times already?
[zb]
anorak:newmercman:
pete smith:
How about this one?That looks like a Scammell Handyman chassis with an Ergo cab grafted on to me Pete…
The step ring suggests Scammell, but the tank is more Beaver than Handyman:
google.co.uk/search?q=scamm … 17&bih=706
google.co.uk/search?q=leyla … oE8ehtM%3A
The wheelarch details look a bit more professional than the average grafted-on job, too. Could it be, as Pete suggests, a factory prototype for the Marathon? The reg. is about right for that- they would have been playing about with prototypes in 1970, if the model was to be launched in 1973. Surely not- hasn’t everything about Leyland been written multiple times already?
Anorak you are spot on, it had a 680 with 6 speed gearbox and was a forerunner to the Marathon, it was sold to Brownhills Motor Sales and then on to Haywards of Walsall, it was chopped back in to dealer for a new Marathon in 1973 ish,this info is out of Leyland Torque magazine.
Well that was quickly solved!
robert1952:
8) Well that was quickly solved!
May be hear say Robert, I have not seen the magazine!
pete smith:
[zb]
anorak:newmercman:
pete smith:
How about this one?That looks like a Scammell Handyman chassis with an Ergo cab grafted on to me Pete…
The step ring suggests Scammell, but the tank is more Beaver than Handyman:
google.co.uk/search?q=scamm … 17&bih=706
google.co.uk/search?q=leyla … oE8ehtM%3A
The wheelarch details look a bit more professional than the average grafted-on job, too. Could it be, as Pete suggests, a factory prototype for the Marathon? The reg. is about right for that- they would have been playing about with prototypes in 1970, if the model was to be launched in 1973. Surely not- hasn’t everything about Leyland been written multiple times already?Anorak you are spot on, it had a 680 with 6 speed gearbox and was a forerunner to the Marathon, it was sold to Brownhills Motor Sales and then on to Haywards of Walsall, it was chopped back in to dealer for a new Marathon in 1973 ish,this info is out of Leyland Torque magazine.
Sorry to contradict what has been written but the official Mararthon prototype with the TL12 engine under development was the American cab-over style structure that was also used for AEC V8 testing. Photograph in The AEC Bulletin, Feb. 2016 edition and photographed by a former AEC development engineer. Development of the TL12 engine had not started in 1970. It was a rush-job development programme starting in late 1971.
gingerfold:
pete smith:
… it had a 680 with 6 speed gearbox and was a forerunner to the Marathon, it was sold to Brownhills Motor Sales and then on to Haywards of Walsall, it was chopped back in to dealer for a new Marathon in 1973 ish,this info is out of Leyland Torque magazine.Sorry to contradict what has been written but the official Mararthon prototype with the TL12 engine under development was the American cab-over style structure that was also used for AEC V8 testing. Photograph in The AEC Bulletin, Feb. 2016 edition and photographed by a former AEC development engineer. Development of the TL12 engine had not started in 1970. It was a rush-job development programme starting in late 1971.
Maybe Leyland were meddling with high-mounted cabs before the Marathon project proper was initiated? I am intrigued to find out what was going on. We have already read on here that there was antipathy between AEC and Leyland- if the lorry pictured above was Leyland’s “competitor” to AEC’s USA-inspired prototype, it would put flesh on that bone of the history. Has anyone got a copy of that Leyland Torque magazine?
[zb]
anorak:gingerfold:
pete smith:
… it had a 680 with 6 speed gearbox and was a forerunner to the Marathon, it was sold to Brownhills Motor Sales and then on to Haywards of Walsall, it was chopped back in to dealer for a new Marathon in 1973 ish,this info is out of Leyland Torque magazine.Sorry to contradict what has been written but the official Mararthon prototype with the TL12 engine under development was the American cab-over style structure that was also used for AEC V8 testing. Photograph in The AEC Bulletin, Feb. 2016 edition and photographed by a former AEC development engineer. Development of the TL12 engine had not started in 1970. It was a rush-job development programme starting in late 1971.
Maybe Leyland were meddling with high-mounted cabs before the Marathon project proper was initiated? I am intrigued to find out what was going on. We have already read on here that there was antipathy between AEC and Leyland- if the lorry pictured above was Leyland’s “competitor” to AEC’s USA-inspired prototype, it would put flesh on that bone of the history. Has anyone got a copy of that Leyland Torque magazine?
The story here aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-a … thon-task/
Oily
I think that everyone from both the Leyland and AEC camps is agreed that the Marathon was entirely an AEC team led design and development project. Their brief was to design and build an interim model that would bridge the gap between the Beaver / Mandator models until the T45 Roadtrain was developed. AEC were instructed to turbo-charge the AV760 engine and use whatever other components from within the Leyland group that they could so that costs could be kept to a minimum. I did complete a full research of the Marathon for my Commercial Vehicles Archive Series of booklets and had it all finished for publication but didn’t go ahead for various reasons.
oiltreader:
The story here aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-a … thon-task/
Oily
Interesting article! The “3TVG” prototype’s cab looks purely American! The Marathon’s daycab definitely issued from the Ergomating, looks despairingly short! Long-legged drivers mustn’t have been happy…
[zb]
anorak:gingerfold:
pete smith:
… it had a 680 with 6 speed gearbox and was a forerunner to the Marathon, it was sold to Brownhills Motor Sales and then on to Haywards of Walsall, it was chopped back in to dealer for a new Marathon in 1973 ish,this info is out of Leyland Torque magazine.Sorry to contradict what has been written but the official Mararthon prototype with the TL12 engine under development was the American cab-over style structure that was also used for AEC V8 testing. Photograph in The AEC Bulletin, Feb. 2016 edition and photographed by a former AEC development engineer. Development of the TL12 engine had not started in 1970. It was a rush-job development programme starting in late 1971.
Maybe Leyland were meddling with high-mounted cabs before the Marathon project proper was initiated? I am intrigued to find out what was going on. We have already read on here that there was antipathy between AEC and Leyland- if the lorry pictured above was Leyland’s “competitor” to AEC’s USA-inspired prototype, it would put flesh on that bone of the history. Has anyone got a copy of that Leyland Torque magazine?
If you google CDH557H it comes up with the copies of the two Leyland Torque magazines,issue 52 is more in depth of what I was told yesterday and issue 7 there is a photo of it with its second owner,sorry I can’t seem to post a link to them,Cheer’s Pete
Those Leyland Society magazines are still available to buy, so it seems:
“Published four times per year by the Leyland Society Ltd.
Valley Forge, 213 Castle Hill Road, Totternhoe, Dunstable, Beds LU6 2DA
Editor : Mike A. Sutcliffe, MBE email: sutcliffes@leylandman.co.uk
…
It is clear from recent correspondence from a number of new members, that
they are asking for us to cover topics which have already appeared in earlier issues
of Leyland Torque and the Journal. The answer to this of course, is to get the back
numbers! All of them are still available and they don’t take up much space. Current
issues of Torque and Journal cost £6 and £7 respectively, incl. postage, if bought
individually (pre 2009 issues being each £1 less)…”
The article in question appears to confirm, beyond much doubt, that Leyland were experimenting with high-cab vehicles from 1965 onwards:
"David H. Hall of Vintage Lorry Funerals advises that CDH 557H was a
forerunner of the Leyland Marathon that was built at the Research & Development
Department and was sold by Bernard Pickup, Head of Leyland Home Sales, to Ralph
Ferrie, Managing Director of Brownhills Motor Sales, a Leyland agent. The tractor
unit was purchased by Harry Hayward, Managing Director, J Hayward & Sons of
Walsall Limited and Harry’s son, Brendan, collected the vehicle from Leyland.
The journey home was eventful as halfway up Keele Hill on the M6 something
locked up and the vehicle came to a halt in the middle lane, before being forcibly
towed to the hard shoulder. The bearing at the back of the gear-box had seized and
this was the start of a number of problems of oil leaks and bearing failures due to the
steep angle of the prop-shaft caused by the height of the engine. The rear axle saddle
angles were altered in an attempt to reduce the prop-shaft angle and the reliability of
the vehicle improved.
Brendan has fond memories of the vehicle recalling that the cab was mounted
on a very deep chassis, some 18 inches high at the rear of the cab. With the Leyland
680 engine and a 6 speed gear-box, CDH 557H was capable of 60 m.p.h. and was a
popular ‘beast’ with the drivers. Bill Leadbetter used it on a night trunking schedule
between Walsall and Dagenham, before it was used as a tramping vehicle.
CDH 557H was sold back to Brownhills Motor Sales, in part exchange for a Leyland Marathon,
and was last seen hauling glass in the Barnsley area.
Fred Boulton adds that it could not be a Bison as they have have six wheels
and felt that it may be a Lynx prototype, in that it does not have the production
version of the front panel. It certainly was not built in 1965, as Eric Leeming and
himself were installing the O.500 engine on a layout table in the Spurrier works
drawing office at that time. Turbo-charged engines did not become available until
1969 for vehicle test. The naturally aspirated Lynx used a header tank integral with
the radiator, but the Buffalo, with the turbo engine, had a rear of cab gantry with a
header tank from the Marathon, but installed in a different way.
The 75 gallon circular tank in the photograph was created for the Gas Turbine
Truck. It used a one piece pressed bracket and “U” bolts covered with plastic pipe
to hold the tank in place. When costed, this tank was cheaper to produce than the
“clamshell” 48 gallon tank, so shorter 50 and 35 gallon versions were created, using
the same end plates, baffl es and bracketry - it became a Leyland standard fitment.
The tank was laid out by Fred, the detail design was down to Rodney Swarbrick
while Fred worked with Fab. Shop on the one piece bracket.
Malcolm Wilford has checked the chassis number against Motor Taxation
records at the Walsall archives and confirms that it is definitely a 1965 issue chassis
number! (L44149, approx 10/65) the lorry being first registered in 10/69. However,
as a prototype, it may have taken many months/years to complete, hence 1965 would
not be the year of completion. "
IIRC from previous discussions on here, the AEC 3VTG prototype was built in 1968. It seems from this article that both firms were having a go at the job, more or less in parallel. I wonder how much collaboration there was?
The 3VTG was a concept vehicle for evaluating the suitability of a revised AEC V8 engine and in particular trying to address the cooling issues with that engine under the standard Ergomatic, and also the 5 inches higher Ergo cab, which some Mandator V8s had. Once the V8 engine was finally binned, in 1971, the 3VTG tractor unit was parked up and then used for evaluation of the TL12 engine under development, 24 hours continuous running along the M4. The 3VTG cab was never ever considered for the Marathon because the Ergomatic cab, or a derivative of it, had to be used for the Marathon because of contractual obligations that British Leyland had with GKN Sankey. They were contracted to buy a further 35,000 Ergo cabs from GKN Sankey at the time of the Marathon inception. I have read the Leyland torque article and there never was any intention of fitting a Leyland 0.680 engine, either normally aspirated, or turbo-charged into the Marathon. The design brief from the outset was also for a multi-ratio gearbox. As for collaboration between AEC and Leyland for the Marathon, there was none. It was an AEC project because Southall had build capacity, Leyland had no spare capacity and also had its hands full with trying to get the 500 series engine to work properly.
So, it appears that Leyland did some work on a high-cab vehicle then, having shunted the entire job down to Southall, disposed of the prototype(s) in the most profitable way!
The limitations of the low-height Ergo cabs for the larger engined models had become apparent from virtually day one and there must have been much head scratching about how to improve things. Hence the 5" raised profile at the bottom of the cab that looked exactly as it was, that is an after thought.
Ref the Thompson Autotanker.
I was lucky enough to catch a somewhat brief glimpse of it on the road.
It was turning from Weoley Park Rd into Gibbons Rd on the edge of Selly Oak in Birmingham.
I was travelling in the opposite direction on a BCT bus being road tested after maintenance at Selly Oak Depot.
