Ecs and cobelfret too it’s part of the conditions of going on for them. Most 45s are short sea
sent from my Lumia 950XL using tapatalk for windows 10 mobile
Dipper_Dave:
eddie snax:
I have my 5th wheel set in one position, never move it, and never have problems with weight distribution. Maybe the Scania has a longer wheelbase than the Renault.Funnily enough I was delivering to Malcoms at Dirft and I was on the bay right next to a Scania with a 45 on. Our 5th wheels where virtually the same about midway between drive and midlift but he had a good 6inches on me (between box and side deflector).
.
Yep that’s were I put it too.
More to the point, Malcolms at Dirft on a Saturday, who you upset 
merc0447:
You get 50 footer containers now! See them in the terminal but I’ve never seen one out on the road to see what the skelly looks like.
I’ve seen one that was coming out of Wincanton/Argo’s Kettering (can’t remember the haulier but not Argo’s) had to double take as I didn’t think they existed I always thought the next size up after 45ft was 53 footers that the Yanks use.
One I’m still struggling to understand was 2 20ft boxes on a container lift trailer. With a hiab at either end and the boxes touching each other in the middle there was no way to open the doors .And because each box was 20ft there’s no way one hiab could reach the box furthest away to lift it.
I’m guessing the hiabs wouldn’t be able to lift a box on their own just from one end because of the force applied, so it can only be used for going between container depots which makes having the hiab pointless.
alix776:
The 45 box always goes on the very front pins so shrink trailer one notch backThey ddon’t sit too close dipper those 45 Ft boxes are driver assist no ifs or buts enjoy Aldi and Lidl tips
I did try to find out the real reason why a 45’ box needed to be on the front pins of a Denison sliding trailer because there isn’t a legal reason for it, I’ve asked denisons the reason for it but couldn’t say why, and have asked VOSA if it’s legal or not, but all they are interested is the axle weights being correct.
I have also had a 40’ box sat on the front pins after dropping a loaded 20’ with no comments from VOSA when I asked about it at their axle weigh bridge, same thing no problem as long as the axles weights are legal.
As for turning circles, it is only the unit and trailer that has to comply and not the 45’ box being carried as its a load and not part of the trailer.
I will add that some BS companies will insist that drivers comply with guidelines just because they are disciplinary happy…
Just reading this thread makes me feel slightly sorry for all the Swift, J B Hunt, Warners and other drivers over here who we all poke fun at. I now have a sympathetic emotion to all their screw ups, they spend a couple of weeks training and are then sent out into the world pulling 53 foot long trailers and an overall vehicle length of 72 feet. Maybe I shouldn’t mock the poor sods anymore, Ithink they would love a container that is only 45 feet long 
Dipper_Dave:
Thats part of the issue immigrant, moving the 5th was essential and if anything I should have moved it back further as even when moved the corners of the box was pinching the airline on the unit couplings when on full lock.Moving the 5th wheel back will take weight off the steering axle which one has to be carefull of, in this case the box was max weight and extra caution was needed, given time I would like to see how much weight was changed using an axle weighbridge but in this instance I believe I was fully road legal and next time would move the 5th wheel further back to avoid the airline pinching.
You dont need to be careful. The Manufacturer decides where the 5th Wheel has to be,and you can only move them as help for coupling up.then it needs to be back on his Place.
Companies have a sign to show you where the 5th Wheel has to be,as we had at tesco
DHL had a speedlimit to 30 if 5th Wheel was moved.
Our Company has it locked with a Screw and its not allowed to move it as its too dangerous.
Just be a bit lucky and the Injurence Company may step out in case of a heavy Accident.
eddie snax:
Dipper_Dave:
Thats part of the issue immigrant, moving the 5th was essential and if anything I should have moved it back further as even when moved the corners of the box was pinching the airline on the unit couplings when on full lock.Moving the 5th wheel back will take weight off the steering axle which one has to be carefull of, in this case the box was max weight and extra caution was needed, given time I would like to see how much weight was changed using an axle weighbridge but in this instance I believe I was fully road legal and next time would move the 5th wheel further back to avoid the airline pinching.
I have my 5th wheel set in one position, never move it, and never have problems with weight distribution. Maybe the Scania has a longer wheelbase than the Renault.
Not sure if Immigrant has done boxes, but to me, he really wasn’t making any sense, you have to load the box where it can travel, quite clearly that means not fouling the cab. Being a driver is about understanding how your vehicle will/is reacting to different load scenarios, but hey, telling you this is like teaching your granny to ■■■■ eggs
I have not done Boxes,but i did Scania,Iveco and a Body Builder,and its the Law,not the feeling 
Immigrant:
You dont need to be careful. The Manufacturer decides where the 5th Wheel has to be,and you can only move them as help for coupling up.then it needs to be back on his Place.
I believe you are incorrect, moving the 5th wheel affects so many variables, outfit length, axle weight distribution, steering sensitivity, steering axle grip, fuel consumption etc that it should only be moved when it has too. For coupling up there’s always the split coupling option.
The very reason we have sliding 5th wheels in the first place is for extra long boxes, my quandary is the position I moved it to is still to close for comfort for a 45’ box but doable.
Due to the rarity of pulling 45’ boxes the logical thing would be to move it back, however it’s original position of virtualy all the way forward has caused me and others enough concern to investigate further using an axle weigher when fully loaded.
If presented with another box of 45’ size I would move it back even further to protect the airline couplings on the unit, then slide it back to the position I have it now for standard 20 and 40’s.
Companies have a sign to show you where the 5th Wheel has to be,as we had at tesco
DHL had a speedlimit to 30 if 5th Wheel was moved.
Our Company has it locked with a Screw and its not allowed to move it as its too dangerous.
Just be a bit lucky and the Injurence Company may step out in case of a heavy Accident.
I can assure you if an accident occurred by an airline break which is the most likely risk based on what I was faced with the insurance companies first question would be why didn’t I move the 5th wheel as that’s why it’s fitted.
Perhaps the best thing is to return it to the manufactures standard position to cover my arse now the 45’ box is done, I might never do one again.
weeto:
alix776:
The 45 box always goes on the very front pins so shrink trailer one notch backThey ddon’t sit too close dipper those 45 Ft boxes are driver assist no ifs or buts enjoy Aldi and Lidl tips
I did try to find out the real reason why a 45’ box needed to be on the front pins of a Denison sliding trailer because there isn’t a legal reason for it, I’ve asked denisons the reason for it but couldn’t say why, and have asked VOSA if it’s legal or not, but all they are interested is the axle weights being correct.
I have also had a 40’ box sat on the front pins after dropping a loaded 20’ with no comments from VOSA when I asked about it at their axle weigh bridge, same thing no problem as long as the axles weights are legal.
As for turning circles, it is only the unit and trailer that has to comply and not the 45’ box being carried as its a load and not part of the trailer.
I will add that some BS companies will insist that drivers comply with guidelines just because they are disciplinary happy…
Obviously your far clever than the likes of me,
But 99% of professional container drivers position the containers in the same way which varies depending on the size of the container,
I’m not interested in finding out the whys or reasons,
and its not a compliance guideline that comes from the BS company i work for,
Its the fact there’s a great big sticker on the side of the Dennison trailer explaining the positioning and trailer set up with the name DENNISON wrote on it and i feel they know alot more about Dennison trailers than me or the BS company i work for.
bigKris:
weeto:
alix776:
The 45 box always goes on the very front pins so shrink trailer one notch backThey ddon’t sit too close dipper those 45 Ft boxes are driver assist no ifs or buts enjoy Aldi and Lidl tips
I did try to find out the real reason why a 45’ box needed to be on the front pins of a Denison sliding trailer because there isn’t a legal reason for it, I’ve asked denisons the reason for it but couldn’t say why, and have asked VOSA if it’s legal or not, but all they are interested is the axle weights being correct.
I have also had a 40’ box sat on the front pins after dropping a loaded 20’ with no comments from VOSA when I asked about it at their axle weigh bridge, same thing no problem as long as the axles weights are legal.
As for turning circles, it is only the unit and trailer that has to comply and not the 45’ box being carried as its a load and not part of the trailer.
I will add that some BS companies will insist that drivers comply with guidelines just because they are disciplinary happy…Obviously your far clever than the likes of me,
But 99% of professional container drivers position the containers in the same way which varies depending on the size of the container,
I’m not interested in finding out the whys or reasons,
and its not a compliance guideline that comes from the BS company i work for,
Its the fact there’s a great big sticker on the side of the Dennison trailer explaining the positioning and trailer set up with the name DENNISON wrote on it and i feel they know alot more about Dennison trailers than me or the BS company i work for.
So you work for a discipline happy firm then.
I too have a Dennison trailer and always put the trailer in the correct position, then if the messy stuff hits the fan I’m covered. In ten years it hasn’t, but tomorrows another day.
A few years ago I was given a DAF with a rear window in the cab. The first time I had a 45 on the back I had to blind side it into a wharehouse, it’s not really a blindside when you have a window in the back you can see through it which made it easy which was fine until I straightened it up and the front of the box swung past the window and frightened the crap out of me. Didn’t realse how close it was.
Dipper_Dave:
Hello,
To clarify im not discussing a ginormous clunge ive encountered…
I’m not reading any further then.
I know people have been done for it it’s something to do with the overall length
sent from my Lumia 950XL using tapatalk for windows 10 mobile
Immigrant:
Dipper_Dave:
Thats part of the issue immigrant, moving the 5th was essential and if anything I should have moved it back further as even when moved the corners of the box was pinching the airline on the unit couplings when on full lock.Moving the 5th wheel back will take weight off the steering axle which one has to be carefull of, in this case the box was max weight and extra caution was needed, given time I would like to see how much weight was changed using an axle weighbridge but in this instance I believe I was fully road legal and next time would move the 5th wheel further back to avoid the airline pinching.
You dont need to be careful. The Manufacturer decides where the 5th Wheel has to be,and you can only move them as help for coupling up.then it needs to be back on his Place.
Companies have a sign to show you where the 5th Wheel has to be,as we had at tesco
DHL had a speedlimit to 30 if 5th Wheel was moved.
Our Company has it locked with a Screw and its not allowed to move it as its too dangerous.
Just be a bit lucky and the Injurence Company may step out in case of a heavy Accident.
Immigrant, you carry on living in your world of ignorance. The Manufacturer fits a movable 5th wheel, which is adjustable to the tolerance allowable for the vehicle. Companies that restrict drivers from adjusting them, or mark the parameters in which drivers are allowed to move it, do this because they don’t trust their drivers, or employ drivers who are untrustworthy.
The companies you name don’t surprise Me as to their attitude.
I’m a professional driver, I know how to set my vehicle up. If I went onto unaccompanied trailers, I’d almost certainly have to readjust the 5th from where it is at the moment(this present position chosen by me, at the behest of my fleet manager, who said upon giving the keys to this new truck in November"i’ll leave you sort the 5th wheel"), for though I can run a 45’ box as it is now, a deep pin Dutch trailer, or fridge would foul the Cab, My employer would be shocked if I turned to them and refused a job, because the trailer didn’t fit the unit due to My refusal to adjust the 5th wheel, their response would be, “we’ve given you the tools for the job, now make them work”.
But hey drivers and screwdrivers 
alix776:
I know people have been done for it it’s something to do with the overall length
Is that from pulling a 13.6 metre trailer, or a 13.6 mtr/45’ box on a skelly, I ask because I doubt they would be over length with a box on because they don’t take the load into account, only the skelly its self.
weeto:
alix776:
The 45 box always goes on the very front pins so shrink trailer one notch backThey ddon’t sit too close dipper those 45 Ft boxes are driver assist no ifs or buts enjoy Aldi and Lidl tips
I did try to find out the real reason why a 45’ box needed to be on the front pins of a Denison sliding trailer because there isn’t a legal reason for it, I’ve asked denisons the reason for it but couldn’t say why, and have asked VOSA if it’s legal or not, but all they are interested is the axle weights being correct.
I have also had a 40’ box sat on the front pins after dropping a loaded 20’ with no comments from VOSA when I asked about it at their axle weigh bridge, same thing no problem as long as the axles weights are legal.
As for turning circles, it is only the unit and trailer that has to comply and not the 45’ box being carried as its a load and not part of the trailer.
I will add that some BS companies will insist that drivers comply with guidelines just because they are disciplinary happy…
I find it hard to believe you contacted Dennison and they did not know why they spent good money conforming to Construction and Use regs when manufacturing their trailers. Who did you speak to, the yard shunter? As for VOSA I despair.
You will find that the regs state that a container is deemed part of the vehicle, and not a load. So it affects the turning circle dimensions, which require said artic to navigate within two concentric circles. Dimensions of inner circle is 5.3m and 12.5m for the outer circle.
Dennison obviously did not inform the can lad or yard shunter or whoever else you spoke to that to satisfy that criteria they would need a facility to shorten the chassis, hence extra front pins and a shorter chassis facility. i.e sliding it into the laden 20’ position. There is also a regulation that specifies a certain distance from kingpin to first trailer axle too, and this adjustment satisfies that too. I am not completely sure about this but I seem to remember a distance of about 8m from kingpin to axle satisfies turning circle regs.
Janos:
weeto:
alix776:
The 45 box always goes on the very front pins so shrink trailer one notch backThey ddon’t sit too close dipper those 45 Ft boxes are driver assist no ifs or buts enjoy Aldi and Lidl tips
I did try to find out the real reason why a 45’ box needed to be on the front pins of a Denison sliding trailer because there isn’t a legal reason for it, I’ve asked denisons the reason for it but couldn’t say why, and have asked VOSA if it’s legal or not, but all they are interested is the axle weights being correct.
I have also had a 40’ box sat on the front pins after dropping a loaded 20’ with no comments from VOSA when I asked about it at their axle weigh bridge, same thing no problem as long as the axles weights are legal.
As for turning circles, it is only the unit and trailer that has to comply and not the 45’ box being carried as its a load and not part of the trailer.
I will add that some BS companies will insist that drivers comply with guidelines just because they are disciplinary happy…I find it hard to believe you contacted Dennison and they did not know why they spent good money conforming to Construction and Use regs when manufacturing their trailers. Who did you speak to, the yard shunter? As for VOSA I despair.
You will find that the regs state that a container is deemed part of the vehicle, and not a load. So it affects the turning circle dimensions, which require said artic to navigate within two concentric circles. Dimensions of inner circle is 5.3m and 12.5m for the outer circle.
Dennison obviously did not inform the can lad or yard shunter or whoever else you spoke to that to satisfy that criteria they would need a facility to shorten the chassis, hence extra front pins and a shorter chassis facility. i.e sliding it into the laden 20’ position. There is also a regulation that specifies a certain distance from kingpin to first trailer axle too, and this adjustment satisfies that too. I am not completely sure about this but I seem to remember a distance of about 8m from kingpin to axle satisfies turning circle regs.
Thank you Janos, I could not remember the dimensions, but I knew they existed.
I’m not sure about the container being part of the vehicle, I remember years ago, when the concession’s road tax used to be available for running 3 + 3 at 38 tonnes, instead 2 + 3, or even 3 + 2, quite a number of container hauliers were prosecuted for running with lift axles raised whilst carrying empty containers, when being taxed on the concessions rate, this was because the container was not the vehicle, but the load itself.
I also remember, when I worked for a haulier who used to move new trailers for Crane Fruehauf, that about 5 years after the 45’ trailers were introduced, the Ministry of transport couldn’t decide whether if the first axle(of a triaxle bogie)was lifted, that the first axle, for the purpose of pin to first axle length, then became the what was the second axle of the bogie, thus almost certainly making the outfit illegal, and I was told this by a bod from the design dept at Toftwood, I raised it with him as he was looking round a 13mtr box van for the Post Office, I couldn’t understand why they had gone for that length and not standard 13.6mtr. The 13 mtr could have a lift axle with no question marks.
Weeto, you say that it is only the Unit and Trailer that have comply with turning circle regs, once you pull out the rear bumper and the suzie carriage, then that would make the skelly its self 45’, don’t you think 
. VOSA not knowing the reasons for said requirements I find surprising, but I’ll take your word for it. But I’ve seen the VOSA guys, standing beside gate 2 gatehouse at Felixstowe, looking at the locating pin area of skelly trailers, as drivers stop at the gatehouse for final release, would seem an odd thing to do, other than to look for the position off the locating pins in relation to the box being carried 
eddie snax:
Janos:
weeto:
alix776:
The 45 box always goes on the very front pins so shrink trailer one notch backThey ddon’t sit too close dipper those 45 Ft boxes are driver assist no ifs or buts enjoy Aldi and Lidl tips
I did try to find out the real reason why a 45’ box needed to be on the front pins of a Denison sliding trailer because there isn’t a legal reason for it, I’ve asked denisons the reason for it but couldn’t say why, and have asked VOSA if it’s legal or not, but all they are interested is the axle weights being correct.
I have also had a 40’ box sat on the front pins after dropping a loaded 20’ with no comments from VOSA when I asked about it at their axle weigh bridge, same thing no problem as long as the axles weights are legal.
As for turning circles, it is only the unit and trailer that has to comply and not the 45’ box being carried as its a load and not part of the trailer.
I will add that some BS companies will insist that drivers comply with guidelines just because they are disciplinary happy…I find it hard to believe you contacted Dennison and they did not know why they spent good money conforming to Construction and Use regs when manufacturing their trailers. Who did you speak to, the yard shunter? As for VOSA I despair.
You will find that the regs state that a container is deemed part of the vehicle, and not a load. So it affects the turning circle dimensions, which require said artic to navigate within two concentric circles. Dimensions of inner circle is 5.3m and 12.5m for the outer circle.
Dennison obviously did not inform the can lad or yard shunter or whoever else you spoke to that to satisfy that criteria they would need a facility to shorten the chassis, hence extra front pins and a shorter chassis facility. i.e sliding it into the laden 20’ position. There is also a regulation that specifies a certain distance from kingpin to first trailer axle too, and this adjustment satisfies that too. I am not completely sure about this but I seem to remember a distance of about 8m from kingpin to axle satisfies turning circle regs.Thank you Janos, I could not remember the dimensions, but I knew they existed.
I’m not sure about the container being part of the vehicle, I remember years ago, when the concession’s road tax used to be available for running 3 + 3 at 38 tonnes, instead 2 + 3, or even 3 + 2, quite a number of container hauliers were prosecuted for running with lift axles raised whilst carrying empty containers, when being taxed on the concessions rate, this was because the container was not the vehicle, but the load itself.
I also remember, when I worked for a haulier who used to move new trailers for Crane Fruehauf, that about 5 years after the 45’ trailers were introduced, the Ministry of transport couldn’t decide whether if the first axle(of a triaxle bogie)was lifted, that the first axle, for the purpose of pin to first axle length, then became the what was the second axle of the bogie, thus almost certainly making the outfit illegal, and I was told this by a bod from the design dept at Toftwood, I raised it with him as he was looking round a 13mtr box van for the Post Office, I couldn’t understand why they had gone for that length and not standard 13.6mtr. The 13 mtr could have a lift axle with no question marks.
Weeto, you say that it is only the Unit and Trailer that have comply with turning circle regs, once you pull out the rear bumper and the suzie carriage, then that would make the skelly its self 45’, don’t you think
Al last, somebody who knows their stuff, and has not been doing the job for five minutes. Thanks for the input Eddie. Interesting stuff about the lift axles. To satisfy turning circles they have to be down, so the law is being broken when they are up. Unless, like the Post Office guy, you make the trailer shorter.
If you think about the issues you have raised, and you add them to the Combined Transport Regs, that came out back in the day, it is a pretty arcane subject. Although a professional driver would trouble himself to be aware of the regs.
Going back to the status of a vehicle designed to carry containers, or having a de-mountable body, I am almost certain that the law sees that as part of the vehicle for overhang purposes, which, of course affects turning circle. Maybe some legal eagle can verify that. I did not have the wit though to think of the extra overhang once the under-run bar and suzie rack had been pulled out though. So even the empty vehicle would have to adjust its length.
I do recall that car transporters have dispensation with their front overhang too.
Interesting stuff there lads.
Regarding my 5th wheel shenanigans I have stumbled acros the manufacturers (Fontaine) pdf.
Reccomended position is forward of the midway point between the midlift and drive, as I reckon im a gnats ■■■■ forward now it appears to comply with manufacturers specs.
Now theres the complex calculation of how much steering weight I have lost in favour of weight on the drive axle, is the trade off worth it, have I buggered my fuel efficiency, will other drivers follow suit, is my arse on the line if ■■■■■ go skyward, when did I last change me underpants…
All these questions and more will be answered in due course.