simcor:
I think some people need to remove their rose tinted spectacles. Many jobs years ago were not as safe as they are these days, not just truck driving.
In both times there will be and are those who are crap at the job and will cause carnage, whether like back in the day or now there will always be those people.
In the old days there were deffo crap drivers yes, but there is a big difference between a poor driver and an incapable, inept and [zb] useless one.
The latter were filtered out, because in those days driving an old truck and a car was like comparing chalk to cheese, they were not that easy, enigmatic non synchronized gearboxes to name one aspect, but nowadays a truck is essentially the same as driving a bloody big car in terms of similarities … so imo that is why we get the clowns and the chimps, because there is no net to stop them getting through any longer…virtually anybody can pass a test to drive a one.
After saying that there are also a lot of good drivers today as in older times, it’s just that the previously mentioned clowns and chimps stand out more.
They do but would you honestly want to go back to crappy knackered boxes giving you a workout or just go with the flow. Not to mention all the other stuff like no air con etc and uncomfortable to drive.
Things change and times change as I said, but either way there will still be numpties that should not be let loose in a car let alone a truck.
But look after yourself and keep out of their way is the best bet.
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Nah you’ve got me all wrong mate, there is no way in hell I’d go back to old style and manual trucks, been there done that, not interested any more, anything for an easy life these days
I was merely pointing out the negative side of what they call tech and progress, the dumbing down of the job, and as to how and why the driving standards are generally ■■■■ poor.
The only way to get back to decent standards of driving is at training school level, ie…teach them how to DRIVE a truck, teach them skills, courtesy and empathy, and not just how to get around a set test route parrot fashion without picking up penalty fail points.
In other words raise both standards and criteria of driver…but in real world.
Driver training should not be run by for profit operators. They ought to be integrated into the haulage industry. A trainee should learn from an experienced hand all of the way through some sort of recognised apprenticeship. There is no point passing a test and thinking that you are some sort of a lorry driver when you havent earned a penny piece from driving lorries. A trainee teacher or even ski instructor does a placement for a set time ,being mentored all of the way before being let loose in a class room.
Sploom:
A lot of you are saying its only up to 7.5 ton,but where does it say this
It says it in The Telegraph article which is the source for this Glasgow piece. telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/0 … st-brexit/
EU rules enshrined in UK law bar any motorist with a full driving licence gained after Jan 1, 1997, from driving any vehicle over 3.5 tons without a further specialised test.
Mr Shapps is understood to believe there is a strong case for returning to pre-1997 rules, where anyone with a full licence could drive any vehicle up to 7.5 tons.
In a letter to MPs, the Transport Secretary wrote: “It has been suggested that now the UK has left the European Union, we may wish to allow all car drivers – not just those who passed their test before Jan 1, 1997, the right to drive these larger vehicles without need for a further test.
“Changes to the licensing categories would potentially create a greater pool of drivers. I am quite happy to explore this idea and how this may work in reality – without making any commitments to legislative change at this stage.”
He said the consultation aimed to seek “evidence on the economic benefits of widening the recruitment pool for medium-sized goods vehicles and minibus drivers, which may attract more people to the industry and support economic growth by further strengthening our supply chain”.
So I had this thread in mind yesterday on my jolly down to Avonmouth and back where I encountered drivers of vehicles of which they don’t often drive ie caravans and it just made me think that more lax regulation maybe isn’t a great idea. I seen caravans with lights out, wrong number plates, no number plates etc, towing at excessive speed etc, all relatively minor stuff but also stuff that we as professionals understand isn’t really on.
Don’t get me wrong we’ve all had a bulb go, or perhaps had to fudge a plate, but we’re mainly doing that as a judgement call to get us somewhere where it can be sorted or whatever. If they can’t be bothered to sort such issues out then what sort of attitude would they have with a larger vehicle?
There needs to be some form of standard in place if they’re to go down a route of deregulation or else its just another race to the bottom where the lowest common denominator (cheers Juddian ) wins out.
I think,if anything,the HGV test should be more difficult.There are too many HGV drivers not driving to a high enough standard,like cutting in after overtaking or hitting the Hinckley bridge.Once they allow car drivers to drive 7.5 tons,the next step will be making it up to 18 t.Then maybe a watered down test for artics.Imagine how many times that bridge will get hit then
Funny that suddenly folks want to keep those horrid rules from the Eu
I wonder how many pre’97 drivers are happily, safely and effectively driving around? Thee was not Auden rise in accidents on 02.01.97 by drivers who had previously not taken a test.
Same as the recent changes to the trailer tests being stopped - no big surge of dangerous drivers.
In the Uk the 7.5t has always been th limit - was t it the old class 3, and even then, it was just an added cost to the licence rather than a test.
Acorn:
Funny that suddenly folks want to keep those horrid rules from the Eu
I wonder how many pre’97 drivers are happily, safely and effectively driving around? Thee was not Auden rise in accidents on 02.01.97 by drivers who had previously not taken a test.
Same as the recent changes to the trailer tests being stopped - no big surge of dangerous drivers.
In the Uk the 7.5t has always been th limit - was t it the old class 3, and even then, it was just an added cost to the licence rather than a test.
I get your point but the easier they make it to qualily,the more people will be competing for your job,the less money in your pocket
Acorn:
Funny that suddenly folks want to keep those horrid rules from the Eu
I wonder how many pre’97 drivers are happily, safely and effectively driving around? There was not a sudden rise in accidents on 02.01.97 by drivers who had previously not taken a test.
Same as the recent changes to the trailer tests being stopped - no big surge of dangerous drivers.
In the Uk the 7.5t has always been the limit - was t it the old class 3, and even then, it was just an added cost to the licence rather than a test.
I get your point but the easier they make it to qualily,the more people will be competing for your job,the less money in your pocket
Good point, but not really justifiable or balanced approach when we think about the overall transport demands, and hasn’t the reverse been the argument about Driver CPC - that it should be scrapped so IS easier on drivers?
Since the last time this law applied where you could drive a 7 half tonne on a car licence, the amount of traffic on the road has multiplied dramatically.
That with what I’ve alread said about being like driving a big car in terms of lack of necessary adaption, and the fact that general society has changed to the point where many drivers are running around with an eternal chip on their shoulders,.and driving aggressively …makes for a dangerous combination while driving much bigger vehicles than what they are used to…
It’s amazing how the famous ‘Health and Safety’ which is oh sooo important, is readily compromised without question when it suits '‘them’ .
To balance off the traffic increases, anyone remember just how awful the 7.5 tonners of yor were.
Sat on a set of Michelins in a D707 i’ve had full oversteer slides on wet urban motorway bends below 40mph, particularly the M8, appalling levels of braking performance from the drum brakes even if air assisted, not as you’d be chucking the anchors on because ABS hadn’t been considered on such vehicles and the aforesaid lack of wet grip guaranteed a full lock up if you didn’t brake carefully.
No power steering added to the joy, flat out at something around 55mph, which was an improvement on the previous D300 which managed 48mph tops.
Handling was much improved when Ford introduced the A series, which had a raised Transit cab and was a much more refined riding/handling vehicle, sadly the one i had was saddled with the York 2.4 4cyl Diesel with no turbo, i can tell you without fear of contradiction running at any weigfht up to its 7.5 ton max was a grim task, there was an option of a 6cyl version of the same engine which was obviously better but a rare option ordered.
In comparison the modern light lorry is even more car like than the larger vehicles that will still require a full hgv licence to drive, i really can’t see this being the thin end of the wedge where HGV licencing is gradually removed as a necessity to drive one.
We’ve all seen just how rapidly the Royal Mail light trucks can cover ground, seemingly wet weather making no difference to the speed they can take wet corners.
I think it would be a good thing to ease the restrictions off and let those that passed their car test after 97 enjoy the same as those of previous test passes, it would be easy enough for a mandatory short familiarisation training period with a recognised training school to be a requirement before the licence would be upgraded.
The bonus for those thinking of going full size HGV driving is they could step gently into the world of lorries and see if it’s really for them before blowing some £3k+ on a full HGV licence whence they find they detest the job, as so many here admit they do.
Juddian:
To balance off the traffic increases, anyone remember just how awful the 7.5 tonners of yor were.
They still are on a worn motorway; because the track is slightly narrower than a full size HGV, they tend to bounce between the ruts on a tired piece of tarmac which is not only disconcerting to the novice but a bloody nuisance to any driver.
I think the real gamechanger in the sector was the Ford Cargo (particularly the later ones after power steering became standard) followed by the Mercedes 814 of the mid 1980’s. Both offered options like factory sleepers and felt like a “proper lorry”. I did tramping for a bit in one of those Mercs, it was a good motor and quite nice to drive.
Strange really that due to payload restraints, the sector seems to have gone full circle with overgrown Iveco Dailies and those nasty little Isuzu things, which look lethal in the event of a crash, taking the place of the A Series and D series respectively.
Acorn:
Funny that suddenly folks want to keep those horrid rules from the Eu
I wonder how many pre’97 drivers are happily, safely and effectively driving around? There was not a sudden rise in accidents on 02.01.97 by drivers who had previously not taken a test.
Same as the recent changes to the trailer tests being stopped - no big surge of dangerous drivers.
In the Uk the 7.5t has always been the limit - was t it the old class 3, and even then, it was just an added cost to the licence rather than a test.
I get your point but the easier they make it to qualily,the more people will be competing for your job,the less money in your pocket
Good point, but not really justifiable or balanced approach when we think about the overall transport demands, and hasn’t the reverse been the argument about Driver CPC - that it should be scrapped so IS easier on drivers?
I dont mind the cpc so much,you can do it in a week and not worry about failing.But really ,it helps your position because,again,it means less competition for jobs.
Acorn:
Funny that suddenly folks want to keep those horrid rules from the Eu
I wonder how many pre’97 drivers are happily, safely and effectively driving around? There was not a sudden rise in accidents on 02.01.97 by drivers who had previously not taken a test.
Same as the recent changes to the trailer tests being stopped - no big surge of dangerous drivers.
In the Uk the 7.5t has always been the limit - was t it the old class 3, and even then, it was just an added cost to the licence rather than a test.
I get your point but the easier they make it to qualily,the more people will be competing for your job,the less money in your pocket
Good point, #1…but not really justifiable or balanced approach when we think about the overall transport demands, and hasn’t the reverse been the argument about Driver CPC - that it should be scrapped so IS easier on drivers?
I dont mind the cpc so much,you can do it in a week and not worry about failing.But really , #2…it helps your position because,again,it means less competition for jobs.
#1
We need more drivers? OK.
We need more Doctors. Is giving a nurse a scalpel a good solution?
Why drop standards because the industry is too tight to pay to train up newcomers, and keep them employed on a permanent contract, with a decent wage, not a zero hrs min wage deal?
Far too often we hear “you get what you pay for”, same with employees. You dont pay the rate, you dont get the workers.
#2
Which is surely an argument for a proper DCPC, rather the weak effort we have now?
We want to be thought of as professionals? With decent wages and conditions? Is the ability to stay awake for 7hrs, 5 times in 5 years much of a qualification?
LOL You only need to look at the pish poor driving standards of some of these clowns, Some of them are oblivious to road markings & signage notices. Low bridges don’t bear thinking about if they think trying to drive down a cycle lane in Manchester is anything to go by. twitter.com/HarryHamishGray/sta … 3687445505
alamcculloch:
Driver training should not be run by for profit operators. They ought to be integrated into the haulage industry. A trainee should learn from an experienced hand all of the way through some sort of recognized apprenticeship. There is no point passing a test and thinking that you are some sort of a lorry driver when you haven’t earned a penny piece from driving lorries. A trainee teacher or even ski instructor does a placement for a set time ,being mentored all of the way before being let loose in a class room.
I totally disagree, before a person becomes and instructor, they have to pass written and practical testing, when they initially start teaching they are supervised for a number of hours.
Also Instructors have a class of around 8 Students, that means you have a set number of Students learning to a set standard. Therefore if there is a problem with a professional instructors ability it will show in how the Students tests out. When a Newly licensed driver enters the work force they should be supervised and taught any and all specialist procedures according to the tasks they will be doing. On the other hand a company Driver acting as an instructor will only pass on the same skills and knowledge he himself is capable of. And in most cases the individual showing the ropes has little to no interest in teaching, so performance lacks all across the board and is just an accident waiting to happen.
I would point you to Hungarian Camion who have there own Truck Driving university, where they are taught all aspects of Driving in all conditions and how to repair a truck on the side of the road. In the same tone of your post, do you suggest all Education facilities be disbanded and abolished so every professional learns on the Job ? Yes that would also include Doctors and Medical staff…
Truck Driving is a Profession not a Job, and if Drivers projected a Professional image, perhaps public opinion would change accordingly.
You don’t improve an image without improving the participants and their performance…
As someone has just pointed out to me, allowing “white van man” to graduate from a transit to a 7.5t Luton van, with no training, and even more parcels to deliver, for the lowest rate possible…
What could possibly go wrong?
alamcculloch:
Driver training should not be run by for profit operators. They ought to be integrated into the haulage industry. A trainee should learn from an experienced hand all of the way through some sort of recognized apprenticeship. There is no point passing a test and thinking that you are some sort of a lorry driver when you haven’t earned a penny piece from driving lorries. A trainee teacher or even ski instructor does a placement for a set time ,being mentored all of the way before being let loose in a class room.
I totally disagree, before a person becomes and instructor, they have to pass written and practical testing, when they initially start teaching they are supervised for a number of hours.
Also Instructors have a class of around 8 Students, that means you have a set number of Students learning to a set standard. Therefore if there is a problem with a professional instructors ability it will show in how the Students tests out. When a Newly licensed driver enters the work force they should be supervised and taught any and all specialist procedures according to the tasks they will be doing. On the other hand a company Driver acting as an instructor will only pass on the same skills and knowledge he himself is capable of. And in most cases the individual showing the ropes has little to no interest in teaching, so performance lacks all across the board and is just an accident waiting to happen.
I would point you to Hungarian Camion who have there own Truck Driving university, where they are taught all aspects of Driving in all conditions and how to repair a truck on the side of the road. In the same tone of your post, do you suggest all Education facilities be disbanded and abolished so every professional learns on the Job ? Yes that would also include Doctors and Medical staff…
Truck Driving is a Profession not a Job, and if Drivers projected a Professional image, perhaps public opinion would change accordingly.
You don’t improve an image without improving the participants and their performance…
I agree with you; but mention DCPC on here, which although not particularly well implemented was a step in that direction, and all you get is howls of protest from people who’ve been doing it for years and think they know it all.
Sidevalve:
I agree with you; but mention DCPC on here, which although not particularly well implemented was a step in that direction, and all you get is howls of protest from people who’ve been doing it for years and think they know it all.
Every day is a school day in this business.
A step in the right direction? Yes, but it’s all show with no real substance.
If it was any good we would have seen a vast improvement in qualities of driving and professionalism.
We ain’t.!
We’ve all done it, but my main objection is why do we have to go through the same old crap every five years.
I get it that rules change, I get it that refreshesrs are a good thing…but 5 sessions?
Surely a one day 8 hour refresher would be ample.
Anybody would think that they are prioritising on the fact that it has became big business,.an industry in fact, and all the money it generated…surely not eh?
Ours are done in our own time unpaid, and I may have felt different in things were not that way. .call me flippant but I’ve got much better things to do in my own time than waste 5 days listening to all that crap.
Franglais:
As someone has just pointed out to me, allowing “white van man” to graduate from a transit to a 7.5t Luton van, with no training, and even more parcels to deliver, for the lowest rate possible…
What could possibly go wrong?
There’s no commercial demand for that. Already they typically use Renault Traffic size vans, not the longest highest Sprinter or Crafter available. Because a larger van would slow them down and they’d run out of time before they could empty it. Did you know that the likes of Amazon, in addition to their fleets of vans also use even bigger fleets of private cars, presumably to deliver fewer parcels to a wider area.
Sidevalve:
I agree with you; but mention DCPC on here, which although not particularly well implemented was a step in that direction, and all you get is howls of protest from people who’ve been doing it for years and think they know it all.
Every day is a school day in this business.
A step in the right direction? Yes, but it’s all show with no real substance.
If it was any good we would have seen a vast improvement in qualities of driving and professionalism.
We ain’t.!
We’ve all done it, but my main objection is why do we have to go through the same old crap every five years.
I get it that rules change, I get it that refreshesrs are a good thing…but 5 sessions?
Surely a one day 8 hour refresher would be ample.
Anybody would think that they are prioritising on the fact that it has became big business,.an industry in fact, and all the money it generated…surely not eh?
Ours are done in our own time unpaid, and I may have felt different in things were not that way. .call me flippant but I’ve got much better things to do in my own time than waste 5 days listening to all that crap.
I’m minded to agree, but it don’t have to be that way. As you know, things have changed now, and you can’t get away with doing the same module five times. My boss makes the most of what’s available; we do a fair bit of ADR, he combines that with a tacho refresher and first aid to cover a spectrum which benefits him and us.
Therefore I’m doing a five yearly drivers hours refresher (which we both agree is a good thing) a week’s ADR course which gives 21 days of DCPC credits meaning no classroom for two years out of the five, and the first aid which again most organisations prefer you to have refreshers for. If other employers were as enlightened, neither they nor their drivers would moan about it so much.
) wins out.