Silver_Surfer:
To be convicted under British law I believe there can be no doubt whatsoever so 1 in a billion is enough is it not?
No, under English criminal law the principle is “beyond reasonable doubt”. Typical DNA profiling (as used successfully in any number of criminal prosecutions) only proves the suspect’s identity to a probability of millions to one - sometimes much lower.
So if you drive for 10 seconds on an earlier model, then stop for 20 minutes, you won’t have any driving time recorded, is that correct?
scaniason:
So if you drive for 10 seconds on an earlier model, then stop for 20 minutes, you won’t have any driving time recorded, is that correct?
No. The principle applied by the “first generation” digi tachos is that each whole minute is treated as a separate entity. If you do any driving in a given minute, then that whole minute is counted as “driving time”. In addition if, by applying the same rule, the preceding and following minutes are both classed as “driving time” then the whole of the minute in between will also be counted as “driving time” (even if the vehicle didn’t move an inch during that minute).
So if the vehicle stops with the internal clock at 11:00:01 and starts moving again at 11:02:59 (i.e. with the vehicle having been stationary for almost three minutes), all three minutes will be counted as “driving time”. This is why these digi tachos can appear to “steal” driving time in stop-start traffic. This also helps to explain why the digi tacho may not correctly show the accumulated total for several minutes after a change of activity.
In the example you give, the digi tacho might record one or two minutes of “driving time”, even though the vehicle was only actually moving for 10 seconds.
e.g. Vehicle stationary for extended period, up until 10:59:57, driven for 10 seconds until 11:00:07, stationary for extended period afterwards.
The minutes up to and including 10:58 will not show as “driving”
10:59 will show as “driving” (3 seconds of movement shown during this minute)
11:00 will show as “driving” (7 seconds of movement shown during this minute)
11:01 and after will not show as “driving”
If the vehicle had then been driven for another 10 seconds from 11:02:55 to 11:03:05, the tacho would record a total of 5 minutes of “driving” time even though the vehicle was only in motion for 20 seconds (it could even do the same even though the wheels were only actually turning for a couple of seconds in total).
Which is what I was trying to get over to lhd earlier - that if you drive for 4:30:01, ie 1 second over the 4.5, it would end up showing 4:31, because that 1 second driving would mean the whole minute would be recorded as such.
His counter-argument was ‘■■■■■■■■’, it would only show 4:31 if you actually drove between 4:31:01 & 4:31:59. I’d argue that in that case, it would display 4:32
simple stop at 4.28 no sweat then is there 
OK! What i suppose I was trying to say was, its taking a lot longer these days to do the runs. What took say, 4hrs each way, is now taking nearer the 4.30 or(or 4.28 or whatever the fluck it is). Mainly due to incessant roadworks and lane closures.
scaniason:
Which is what I was trying to get over to lhd earlier - that if you drive for 4:30:01, ie 1 second over the 4.5, it would end up showing 4:31, because that 1 second driving would mean the whole minute would be recorded as such.His counter-argument was ‘[zb]’, it would only show 4:31 if you actually drove between 4:31:01 & 4:31:59. I’d argue that in that case, it would display 4:32
No! It’s BS. When you’ve actually done it and seen what the display says, come back and restart your argument. Until then… 
On the display, it stays on the CURRENT minute UNTIL you break into the next. Which part of this is so hard for you to understand? FFS it isn’t rocket science.
Left hand down!:
Coffeeholic:
Left hand down!:
scaniason:
I got one last week for 4:31 driving. I pulled up at Corley svcs and parked with the tacho showing 4:30 exactly. It stayed on this all through my break, then when I moved off after just under an hour it went to 4:31, and very shortly afterwards went to 0:01. Thought it was a glitch, but when I downloaded my card it came up as an infringement for 4:31.■■■■■■ me off as a bit OCD about having a clean card. Not bothered about vosa as I think I’d have to act a real [zb] before anyone would give a toss, it’s just me.
If your tacho shows 4:30 then it’s always an infringement because 4:30 means you’ve gone past that point, ie. 4:30 and some seconds.
Not always. It could be 4:30:00, there’s the same chance of it being that as 4:30:any seconds which is of course 1 in 60. As 4:30:00 is exactly 4.5 hours therefore you’ve not exceeded it. the sequence will be 4:29:58, 4:29:59, 4:30:00, 4:30:01, 4:30:02. None of the first three are more than 4.5 hours so no problem but the next two are technically an infringement but you aren’t going to get nicked for them.
That’s taking hair splitting to extremes. By your own admission, it’s a “1 in 60” chance that it won’t be an infringement so based on that it’s pretty safe to say that you’ll have exceeded 4:30 driving and got yourself an infringement if you haven’t twiddled the mode switch before it shows 4:30 on the display.
Ironic post is ironic. Good old Rob K, top form as ever. 
Left hand down!:
scaniason:
Which is what I was trying to get over to lhd earlier - that if you drive for 4:30:01, ie 1 second over the 4.5, it would end up showing 4:31, because that 1 second driving would mean the whole minute would be recorded as such.His counter-argument was ‘[zb]’, it would only show 4:31 if you actually drove between 4:31:01 & 4:31:59. I’d argue that in that case, it would display 4:32
No! It’s BS. When you’ve actually done it and seen what the display says, come back and restart your argument. Until then…
On the display, it stays on the CURRENT minute UNTIL you break into the next. Which part of this is so hard for you to understand? FFS it isn’t rocket science.
You’re right, it isn’t rocket science - it’s fairly simple numbers:
Minute 1 - 00:01 - 01:00, 60 seconds elapsed. Any Driving which takes place in that minute means that the entire minute is categorised as driving. Are we agreed on that point? (remebering that we are talking about the earlier generation tachos)
Lets go step by step for now…
mr infringement is my nick name at work, all minor but lots of them, got a tug off vosa tother week everyone shown up, they werent a bit bothered , the way i see it is if you park up at 4 hours and then at 4 hours again you need another 45 to get ya last hour and the odds are your putting yourself on a break just as the M6 is letting out, take the 2 min infringement and get yaselves home will ya 
4hr 29m.
Anything more and you fully deserve to be hanged by your testicles on live television until you’re dead.
I managed a 4hr 29m today. Awesome ■■■■■■■■■■■■ too. 
That minute or so after you’ve stopped and you’re waiting to see if the tacho rolls over to 4hr 30m is tense though. 
Why does this argument seem to have turned around? LHD was rightly trying to point out that should your tacho read 4.30 then it is highly likely you are in for an infringement because the likelihood of stopping bang on 4.30 is pretty much impossible as the clock is always running. This is why when the clock does hit 4.30 the flashing lights commence and the 4.30 flashes on the head unit too.
Truckbling:
Why does this argument seem to have turned around? LHD was rightly trying to point out that should your tacho read 4.30 then it is highly likely you are in for an infringement because the likelihood of stopping bang on 4.30 is pretty much impossible as the clock is always running. This is why when the clock does hit 4.30 the flashing lights commence and the 4.30 flashes on the head unit too.
If the tacho reads 4:30 then you aren’t in for an infringement, 4:30 is not exceeding 4.5 hours driving. If it changes to 4:31 then that will flag up an infringement. Driving time for the regs is what the tacho records and if it records the time as 4:30, even if you have gone over on a newer digital tacho, then that is what you are deemed to have driven and no infringement will occur.
Truckbling:
Why does this argument seem to have turned around? LHD was rightly trying to point out that should your tacho read 4.30 then it is highly likely you are in for an infringement because the likelihood of stopping bang on 4.30 is pretty much impossible as the clock is always running. This is why when the clock does hit 4.30 the flashing lights commence and the 4.30 flashes on the head unit too.
It’s probably because he (and others) wrongly point out that 4:30 is an infringement when it isn’t, its ran to the wire but is bang on 4:30, only 4:31 and above would be an infringement, likewise the suggestion elsewhere that you need to IMMEDIATELY put it on break when you’ve stopped on 4:30, again that is incorrect, as long as it’s not registered driving then the mode can be anything other the actual driving.
Anybody who signs for an infringement for doing exactly 4:30 is an idiot, as is the company asking you.
Coffeeholic:
Truckbling:
Why does this argument seem to have turned around? LHD was rightly trying to point out that should your tacho read 4.30 then it is highly likely you are in for an infringement because the likelihood of stopping bang on 4.30 is pretty much impossible as the clock is always running. This is why when the clock does hit 4.30 the flashing lights commence and the 4.30 flashes on the head unit too.If the tacho reads 4:30 then you aren’t in for an infringement, 4:30 is not exceeding 4.5 hours driving. If it changes to 4:31 then that will flag up an infringement. Driving time for the regs is what the tacho records and if it records the time as 4:30, even if you have gone over on a newer digital tacho, then that is what you are deemed to have driven and no infringement will occur.
If he says water ain’t wet then it ain’t mkay…
Roymondo:
Silver_Surfer:
To be convicted under British law I believe there can be no doubt whatsoever so 1 in a billion is enough is it not?No, under English criminal law the principle is “beyond reasonable doubt”. Typical DNA profiling (as used successfully in any number of criminal prosecutions) only proves the suspect’s identity to a probability of millions to one - sometimes much lower.
Kk, don’t know much about it, only had one brush with the law & that was enough to realise that the only thing that matters is the CPS get a tick in the box which unless you are loaded & can afford a competition brief, they probably will.
switchlogic:
Left hand down!:
Coffeeholic:
Left hand down!:
scaniason:
I got one last week for 4:31 driving. I pulled up at Corley svcs and parked with the tacho showing 4:30 exactly. It stayed on this all through my break, then when I moved off after just under an hour it went to 4:31, and very shortly afterwards went to 0:01. Thought it was a glitch, but when I downloaded my card it came up as an infringement for 4:31.■■■■■■ me off as a bit OCD about having a clean card. Not bothered about vosa as I think I’d have to act a real [zb] before anyone would give a toss, it’s just me.
If your tacho shows 4:30 then it’s always an infringement because 4:30 means you’ve gone past that point, ie. 4:30 and some seconds.
Not always. It could be 4:30:00, there’s the same chance of it being that as 4:30:any seconds which is of course 1 in 60. As 4:30:00 is exactly 4.5 hours therefore you’ve not exceeded it. the sequence will be 4:29:58, 4:29:59, 4:30:00, 4:30:01, 4:30:02. None of the first three are more than 4.5 hours so no problem but the next two are technically an infringement but you aren’t going to get nicked for them.
That’s taking hair splitting to extremes. By your own admission, it’s a “1 in 60” chance that it won’t be an infringement so based on that it’s pretty safe to say that you’ll have exceeded 4:30 driving and got yourself an infringement if you haven’t twiddled the mode switch before it shows 4:30 on the display.
Ironic post is ironic. Good old Rob K, top form as ever.
Is that the K’ster? Glad he’s still on board.
Contraflow:
4hr 29m.Anything more and you fully deserve to be hanged by your testicles on live television until you’re dead.
I managed a 4hr 29m today. Awesome ■■■■■■■■■■■■ too.
That minute or so after you’ve stopped and you’re waiting to see if the tacho rolls over to 4hr 30m is tense though.
You should be on TV.
Cotswoldcrunch:
Just stick it on break when unloading…and say you were freely disposing of your time as you chose to do it.
…It got me in the front door by 11am.
Yes, some chaps think that you can’t have him on break if someone else is unloading your wagon. Tis debatable but all you gotta say is, I told them I ain’t doing nowt for 45 mins while you tip him ok?
cheekymonkey:
Its getting harder to keep to the law. Nowhere to park yesterday, kept getting moved on at JCBs. Today a massive crash on the M6 where two hatchbacks bumped into each other and broke their bumpers resulting in miles of tailbacks, (and knock-on effects.. :smiley: ), went over again. The HATOs didnt seem to know what to do, they were all just standing there looking at it, and this HOURS after Id heard it on Radio2/Sally.
The slightest of incident, flat-tyre, minor bump etc means mayhem these days and massive delays.
The way they plan the runs means you usually have to try and get your break in as near the middle of the shift as poss resulting in over runs.
Its deffo getting harder to comply.
Just too much traffic & not enough government funded parking like on the continent. They should bang truck only little hard standing areas at the side of the motorway with no facilities only for truckers.
Case in point about tacho rules, I parked about 18:00 & hits the deck pretty much straight away, I had 7 hours kip, up at 01:00 raring to go, thinking it was 06:00 ish, fully wired & champing at the bit, I gotta sit here for 2 hours now for a 9 fiddling wi this phone on here…
The only time I’ve ever driven tired which I appreciate is illegal is when the tacho had been perfectly legal.
Shame they can’t just say, don’t drive tired as if you have an accident we will paste you.
