Moon landing denier

Pokerblade:
Hi guys

What’s your thoughts on the moon landings in 69?

It’s 50 years and they’ve not been back yet! Not even been for a fly past! And not even been higher than low earth orbit since!

The lunar lander looks like something off blue Peter and how they got the car up and put it together is a mystery!

I’ve just watched the apollo 11 post flight conference and they look so sheepish!

What do you guys think about it?

I remain on the fence. I so much want to believe that it actually happened, however there has been so much deception across the board over the years it remains hard to know what to and what to not believe.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Freight Dog:
Do you still teach?

No. Took a year off in 2014 when I got my hgvs licence, got offered a job where I am now in Nov. 2014 and the college rang me in 2015 asking when I was going back! :laughing:

I did a little on the side, private tutoring and what not, but chucked that after a year. My heart just wasn’t in it anymore.

Running the risk of sounding like a grumpy git off here, it wasn’t the job it once was.

Carryfast:

Rjan:
Don’t you think it would have been easier to just put men on the moon, than risk bringing American society down with a fraud of biblical proportions? :laughing:

Nixon was hung out to dry for engaging a couple of burglars in a dirty tricks campaign - and evidently they couldn’t even keep that affair a secret. A fraud on the scale of faking a moon landing would require the input of tens of thousands of expert personnel at the very least. Honestly, in considering why moon landing denial is ludicrous, my inner monologue has spent the past 10 minutes staggering drunkenly from logical pillar to logical post! It’s utterly risible! :laughing: :laughing:

The difference would be ‘if’ the ‘fraud’ was seen as being in the US national interest,including a show of defence technology capability and therefore a Cold War deterrent,based on defence chiefs advice to the President.IE getting Nixon would have been seen as justified whistle blowing but grassing up the Apollo programme would have been seen as treason probably resulting in a CIA hit. :bulb:

But it begs the very question how such a fraud would be seen as being in the national interest in the first place.

If it is impossible or infeasible to get to the moon, then the Americans would have been under no pressure to get there, safe in the knowledge that the Soviets could not either. The deterrent effect doesn’t just depend on the fraud, but on the indefinite credibility and concealment of it - including from spies, turncoats, and the well-resourced opponents of the American state inside and out. And of course the Soviets, having similar expertise to the Americans and (on this version of events) knowing that it was infeasible to reach the moon, would immediately smell a rat.

And had the fraud been discovered significantly after it’s execution, it would not just be the deterrent that evaporated but American society itself. If it was caught in the planning stage, there would be immense scandal - and likely provoke Nuremberg-like trials for the ringleaders (who would have to be at a very high level) and the overhauling of the entire political class - but if discovered afterwards (once 6 billion people had been lied to) it would be ideologically fatal.

The risk of the collapse of American society would not keep those in the know silent, because at least some of those in the know would themselves consider American society ideologically bankrupt and therefore deserving of collapse, and if those in the know were corrupt and ideologically bankrupt to begin with (causing them no anguish in being involved in the deception), then it is also then easy for opponents of their organisation to target individuals for further corruption and find out the truth.

And for there to be a CIA hit, there has to be a huge, well-staffed bureaucracy that has its feelers out for who to hit and why, so you’ve now got another huge mass of people who have to know what is going on. Like I say, it’s incredible to think that the planning and execution of such a fraud would have involved anything less than tens of thousands of people - including of necessity many of the best, the brightest, the proudest, the most idealistic. To somehow vet them all and keep tabs on all these people for the next several decades - and not just them, but their families, colleagues, and associates - would be totally infeasible.

The truth I think is that it is ardent moon landing deniers (those who are more than merely curious or skeptical) who are the confidence tricksters - their reasoning lacks anything more than a superficial integrity, and their simplistic but deeply held principles that everyone else is a self-interested crook who is on the make (apparently enabling such coordinated grand deceptions), makes them deeply untrustworthy, because it’s an expression of their own moral code and worldview.

[duplicate]

Something that many would say proves the moon landings are real. The Apollo missions brought back hundreds of kg of moon rock. This was distributed to various countries around the world as a goodwill gesture. Many countries compared it to samples of moon rock (single digit kg) previously brought back by unmanned missions. They declared it genuine.

If it is a conspiracy, every nation on earth is in on It, including the ones who don’t consider America a friend.

Captain Caveman 76:
If it is a conspiracy, every nation on earth is in on It, including the ones who don’t consider America a friend.

The problem is that the deniers insist this is a sober summary of the facts - that the conspiracy does indeed bind international friend and foe in their mutual interest of deceiving the general populace - rather than (as you and I interpret it) a rhetorical expression of incredulity! :laughing:

A funny thing the other day is that I stumbled on a video of George Galloway - who is infamously contrarian on most matters - delivering a speech about a range of international subjects. I couldn’t really fault his facts, and yet there was a faint air of madness about his delivery.

Another thing I’m coming to realise as the Brexit debate wears on and I speak to more people about it, is that I’d probably rather be friends with, and have more of my mentality in common with, Brexiteers than Remainers - because at least the Brexiteers seem to have woken up to something.

It’s incredibly unsettling when you can’t tell which side you’d rather be on anymore, and which side holds more sanity in their hands. :laughing:

I wonder whether it’s a sign of dangerous times ahead.

Rjan:

Carryfast:
The difference would be ‘if’ the ‘fraud’ was seen as being in the US national interest,including a show of defence technology capability and therefore a Cold War deterrent,based on defence chiefs advice to the President.IE getting Nixon would have been seen as justified whistle blowing but grassing up the Apollo programme would have been seen as treason probably resulting in a CIA hit. :bulb:

But it begs the very question how such a fraud would be seen as being in the national interest in the first place.

If it is impossible or infeasible to get to the moon, then the Americans would have been under no pressure to get there, safe in the knowledge that the Soviets could not either. The deterrent effect doesn’t just depend on the fraud, but on the indefinite credibility and concealment of it - including from spies, turncoats, and the well-resourced opponents of the American state inside and out. And of course the Soviets, having similar expertise to the Americans and (on this version of events) knowing that it was infeasible to reach the moon, would immediately smell a rat.

And had the fraud been discovered significantly after it’s execution, it would not just be the deterrent that evaporated but American society itself. If it was caught in the planning stage, there would be immense scandal - and likely provoke Nuremberg-like trials for the ringleaders (who would have to be at a very high level) and the overhauling of the entire political class - but if discovered afterwards (once 6 billion people had been lied to) it would be ideologically fatal.

The risk of the collapse of American society would not keep those in the know silent, because at least some of those in the know would themselves consider American society ideologically bankrupt and therefore deserving of collapse, and if those in the know were corrupt and ideologically bankrupt to begin with (causing them no anguish in being involved in the deception), then it is also then easy for opponents of their organisation to target individuals for further corruption and find out the truth.

And for there to be a CIA hit, there has to be a huge, well-staffed bureaucracy that has its feelers out for who to hit and why, so you’ve now got another huge mass of people who have to know what is going on. Like I say, it’s incredible to think that the planning and execution of such a fraud would have involved anything less than tens of thousands of people - including of necessity many of the best, the brightest, the proudest, the most idealistic. To somehow vet them all and keep tabs on all these people for the next several decades - and not just them, but their families, colleagues, and associates - would be totally infeasible.

Firstly ‘national interest’ in this case would be convincing the opposition that America has the technology to deliver whatever it wants wherever it wants using ballistic weapons.

As for the bs of not keeping everyone involved silent.You do know that those involved in the UK defence industry are subject to signing the official secrets act as part of the job.With grassing up a bluff being seen as no different to grassing up a piece of superior technology in that regard.These are the rules just regarding sensitive but unclassified information let alone the classified nature of the Apollo project.

While if it wasn’t seen as a project subject to national security and defence implications there obviously would have been no need to classify any of it. :unamused:

nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/OPD_docs/NID_1600_55_.pdf

nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf … s42-52.pdf

private-files.com/documents.php/

Captain Caveman 76:

Own Account Driver:
Everyone knows it was a load of faked nonsense really and that the news and governments have been lying to us for years but the majority prefer denial over rocking the boat - don’t necessarily blame them.

Won’t be going to the moon, mars or anywhere else anytime soon as the van allen belt radiation is an insurmountable obstacle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O5dPsu66Kw

The Van Allen Belt waxes and wanes in intensity due to variations in solar activity. At the speed they were travelling they would pass through it in about 2 hours. Easily survivable if the right time was chosen to travel through it.

You could be right, this astronaut who supposedly went to the moon has a bit to say about the timing through the Van Allen radiation belt.

Carryfast:

Rjan:
[…]

Firstly ‘national interest’ in this case would be convincing the opposition that America has the technology to deliver whatever it wants wherever it wants using ballistic weapons.

Yes, a show of military power is an obvious motive. But given that both superpowers were able to access space at the time, why make a big spectacle of landing men on the moon, if it couldn’t be done?

Moreover, I’d suggest that the main function of the moon landing was not as a show of military power (although it was certainly ominous for America’s foes), but as a show of ideological power at home and everywhere, a marvel of the power of American capitalism.

If you are caught bluffing your enemy in military deterrence, there are not necessarily any consequences - nobody expects generals to tell the truth to their enemies. Comparably, if it turned out those TV licencing detector vans were empty all those years, we would all express sardonic laughter.

But in an ideological bluff on the scale of the moon landing, if discovered, American society would immediately turn grey and fall apart at the cellular level. It would be the ideological equivalent of Mount Vesuvius blowing its top - the sudden release of the toxic gusts of deception would asphyxiate the majority, and the fallout shortly afterwards would burn everything to ashes. These ideological risks that you believe bind the conspirators together in silence, are precisely the risks that would have prevented any sane person allowing the conspiracy to proceed in the first place, and had it somehow occurred, anyone in contact with it would themselves have been ideologically sickened, eventually either vomiting the truth upon the populace or becoming vulnerable to infection by the agents of enemy states.

To a considerably lesser extent, this is precisely what you have seen with the Manning and Snowdon disclosures - disclosures which have been shocking but hardly surprising. To keep secret anything that is ideologically reprehensible, those telling the truth only have to be lucky once, whereas the American state has to be lucky every time.

As for the bs of not keeping everyone involved silent.You do know that those involved in the UK defence industry are subject to signing the official secrets act as part of the job.

Indeed, and look at how many disclosures occur anyway! Until the 60s, the Russian desk at MI6 was being run by Soviet agents, all of whom risked the gallows!

With grassing up a bluff being seen as no different to grassing up a piece of superior technology in that regard.These are the rules just regarding sensitive but unclassified information let alone the classified nature of the Apollo project.

But the Apollo project as a whole is not classified - its results are known worldwide, and are considered one of the spectacular crowning achievements of human civilisation. A lie on this scale would have left Goebbels shellshocked and gasping for air.

While if it wasn’t seen as a project subject to national security and defence implications there obviously would have been no need to classify any of it. :unamused:

But nobody argues that it doesn’t have national security and defence implications - one would expect there to be classified information in respect of it.

Rjan:
Yes, a show of military power is an obvious motive. But given that both superpowers were able to access space at the time, why make a big spectacle of landing men on the moon, if it couldn’t be done?

Moreover, I’d suggest that the main function of the moon landing was not as a show of military power (although it was certainly ominous for America’s foes), but as a show of ideological power at home and everywhere, a marvel of the power of American capitalism.

If you are caught bluffing your enemy in military deterrence, there are not necessarily any consequences - nobody expects generals to tell the truth to their enemies. Comparably, if it turned out those TV licencing detector vans were empty all those years, we would all express sardonic laughter.

But in an ideological bluff on the scale of the moon landing, if discovered, American society would immediately turn grey and fall apart at the cellular level. It would be the ideological equivalent of Mount Vesuvius blowing its top - the sudden release of the toxic gusts of deception would asphyxiate the majority, and the fallout shortly afterwards would burn everything to ashes. These ideological risks that you believe bind the conspirators together in silence, are precisely the risks that would have prevented any sane person allowing the conspiracy to proceed in the first place, and had it somehow occurred, anyone in contact with it would themselves have been ideologically sickened, eventually either vomiting the truth upon the populace or becoming vulnerable to infection by the agents of enemy states.

To a considerably lesser extent, this is precisely what you have seen with the Manning and Snowdon disclosures - disclosures which have been shocking but hardly surprising. To keep secret anything that is ideologically reprehensible, those telling the truth only have to be lucky once, whereas the American state has to be lucky every time.

Indeed, and look at how many disclosures occur anyway! Until the 60s, the Russian desk at MI6 was being run by Soviet agents, all of whom risked the gallows!

But the Apollo project as a whole is not classified - its results are known worldwide, and are considered one of the spectacular crowning achievements of human civilisation. A lie on this scale would have left Goebbels shellshocked and gasping for air.

But nobody argues that it doesn’t have national security and defence implications - one would expect there to be classified information in respect of it.

You’ve contradicted yourself in that you’re saying that none of it was classified then saying you’d expect such a bluff to involve the need to classify it.

While it’s clear that secrecy was a key part of the whole plan just that ironically the secrecy in question was all part of the bigger much more secret part of it all being one big bluff for the consumption of the Soviets and even to an extent domestic consumption.While we know that the Cold War was rightly an ideological one so it’s clear that the motive was still ultimately that of a defence tactic connected to the Cold War and all the implications of that for those involved with it.

On that note if Kennedy had said to all those who mattered we’re going to bluff the Soviets into submission both ideologically and militarily in order to hopefully ‘avoid’ the possibility of war and we obviously have to keep it secret from the nation for it to work.How many of those involved do think would have even wanted to blow the thing open rather than enthusiastically go along with it ?.Bearing in mind that the rest would have been working on a strictly need to know basis anyway.I for one would have been on Kennedy’s side in that regardless just based on ideological reasons and beating the Soviets in a rigged ‘space race’ bluff was better for everyone than fighting with them.

Which then leaves the question of the unfortunate Grissom crew conspiracy theories as part of that ?.Bearing in mind that the ‘mistakes’ made in that disaster seemed impossible to believe.

So there we have it.The ‘motivation’ for the conspiracy and then making it work, in it being a method to take the heat out of the Cold War,was a more wonderful thing,than the mission itself ‘would’ have been ‘if’ it was real and that’s why those involved would ( should ) have been happy to keep their mouth’s shut about the plan.Which as a previous believer in the mission just actually adds to my admiration of Kennedy and what he did here. :bulb:

Captain Caveman 76:
Something that many would say proves the moon landings are real. The Apollo missions brought back hundreds of kg of moon rock. This was distributed to various countries around the world as a goodwill gesture. Many countries compared it to samples of moon rock (single digit kg) previously brought back by unmanned missions. They declared it genuine.

If it is a conspiracy, every nation on earth is in on It, including the ones who don’t consider America a friend.

Were there any unmanned missions from the Moon’s surface preceeding the manned landings?
I thought that one of the challenges of the mission was that no craft had taken off from the Moon before?
Wasn’t the first unmanned return mission from a soft landing 1970?

Captain Caveman 76:
Something that many would say proves the moon landings are real. The Apollo missions brought back hundreds of kg of moon rock. This was distributed to various countries around the world as a goodwill gesture. Many countries compared it to samples of moon rock (single digit kg) previously brought back by unmanned missions. They declared it genuine.

If it is a conspiracy, every nation on earth is in on It, including the ones who don’t consider America a friend.

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

3 wheeler:
I think you must of missed a few supposed landings…read this clip
Twelve of these astronauts walked on the Moon’s surface, and six of those drove Lunar Roving Vehicles on the Moon. While three astronauts flew to the Moon twice, of which two landed, none landed on the Moon more than once. The nine Apollo missions to the Moon occurred between December 1968 and December 1972.

Apart from these twenty-four people who visited the Moon, no human being has gone beyond low Earth orbit. They have, therefore, been farther from the Earth than anyone else. They are also the only people to have directly viewed the far side of the Moon. The twelve who walked on the Moon are the only people ever to have set foot on an astronomical object other than the Earth.

Of the twenty-four astronauts who flew to the Moon, two went on to command a Skylab mission, one commanded Apollo–Soyuz, one flew as commander for Approach and Landing Tests of the Space Shuttle, and two went on to command orbital Space Shuttle missions. A total of twenty-four NASA astronauts from the Apollo era flew on the Space Shuttle.

How do you know?

There are 180 RAF and Royal Marines in Salisbury investigating a nut allergy.

Franglais:

Captain Caveman 76:
Something that many would say proves the moon landings are real. The Apollo missions brought back hundreds of kg of moon rock. This was distributed to various countries around the world as a goodwill gesture. Many countries compared it to samples of moon rock (single digit kg) previously brought back by unmanned missions. They declared it genuine.

If it is a conspiracy, every nation on earth is in on It, including the ones who don’t consider America a friend.

Were there any unmanned missions from the Moon’s surface preceeding the manned landings?
I thought that one of the challenges of the mission was that no craft had taken off from the Moon before?
Wasn’t the first unmanned return mission from a soft landing 1970?

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

I really couldn’t remember, so I looked it up and you’re right. Unmanned missions which brought back samples were AFTER the Apollo landings :blush:

The Russians attempted return trips before the Americans, but failed. They did however successfully bring lunar samples back in the 70s. So my point is still valid, I’m quite sure the Russians would happily point out if their lunar samples didn’t match the Americans.

Captain Caveman 76:
I really couldn’t remember, so I looked it up and you’re right. Unmanned missions which brought back samples were AFTER the Apollo landings :blush:

The Russians attempted return trips before the Americans, but failed. They did however successfully bring lunar samples back in the 70s. So my point is still valid, I’m quite sure the Russians would happily point out if their lunar samples didn’t match the Americans.

Let’s get this right the Americans make numerous manned landings which supposedly brought back all the samples they could ever need.Then they sent unmanned missions to bring back more. :confused:

While assuming that the whole Space Race thing was about diverting the Russian and US public’s attention from fighting each other to racing each other to the Moon instead,then surely it was also in the Russian government’s interests to get onside with the scam ?.Bearing in mind that it all culminated in this. :bulb:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo-Soyuz_Test_Project

Carryfast:

Rjan:

You’ve contradicted yourself in that you’re saying that none of it was classified then saying you’d expect such a bluff to involve the need to classify it.

No I said a legitimate project would surely involve some classified elements. I was countering your characterisation of the Apollo program as having a “classified nature”.

While it’s clear that secrecy was a key part of the whole plan just that ironically the secrecy in question was all part of the bigger much more secret part of it all being one big bluff for the consumption of the Soviets and even to an extent domestic consumption.While we know that the Cold War was rightly an ideological one so it’s clear that the motive was still ultimately that of a defence tactic connected to the Cold War and all the implications of that for those involved with it.

But putting men on the moon had no immediate military or defence function. It’s function was ideological, and if you accept that premise, then the risks of being caught bluffing would far outweigh the gains to be had, because the ideological arena (in which power is drawn from truth and integrity) doesn’t tolerate bluffs and openly mendacious claims.

On that note if Kennedy had said to all those who mattered we’re going to bluff the Soviets into submission both ideologically and militarily in order to hopefully ‘avoid’ the possibility of war and we obviously have to keep it secret from the nation for it to work.

But tacitly, all those involved would have to be of the view that they faced military defeat from the Soviets in the event of an imminent war, and that the Soviets would be the aggressors. Many may have been paranoid about the latter, but nobody seriously thought the Soviets were so far ahead that they could win a military war. There is no reason why the Soviets ought to have been ahead - American was and is an extremely rich and technologically advanced society. The real threat they posed, and always had posed, was ideological.

How many of those involved do think would have even wanted to blow the thing open rather than enthusiastically go along with it ?

As I said, I think many would have blown it wide open at the ideas stage.

Bearing in mind that the rest would have been working on a strictly need to know basis anyway.I for one would have been on Kennedy’s side in that regardless just based on ideological reasons and beating the Soviets in a rigged ‘space race’ bluff was better for everyone than fighting with them.

But beating them in the space race fair-and-square would be even better! Even on a “need to know” basis, vast numbers of people still have to know basically what is going on, and if you’re dealing with smart people there are always going to be those who make the appropriate inferences.

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Rjan:

You’ve contradicted yourself in that you’re saying that none of it was classified then saying you’d expect such a bluff to involve the need to classify it.

No I said a legitimate project would surely involve some classified elements. I was countering your characterisation of the Apollo program as having a “classified nature”.

While it’s clear that secrecy was a key part of the whole plan just that ironically the secrecy in question was all part of the bigger much more secret part of it all being one big bluff for the consumption of the Soviets and even to an extent domestic consumption.While we know that the Cold War was rightly an ideological one so it’s clear that the motive was still ultimately that of a defence tactic connected to the Cold War and all the implications of that for those involved with it.

But putting men on the moon had no immediate military or defence function. It’s function was ideological, and if you accept that premise, then the risks of being caught bluffing would far outweigh the gains to be had, because the ideological arena (in which power is drawn from truth and integrity) doesn’t tolerate bluffs and openly mendacious claims.

On that note if Kennedy had said to all those who mattered we’re going to bluff the Soviets into submission both ideologically and militarily in order to hopefully ‘avoid’ the possibility of war and we obviously have to keep it secret from the nation for it to work.

But tacitly, all those involved would have to be of the view that they faced military defeat from the Soviets in the event of an imminent war, and that the Soviets would be the aggressors. Many may have been paranoid about the latter, but nobody seriously thought the Soviets were so far ahead that they could win a military war. There is no reason why the Soviets ought to have been ahead - American was and is an extremely rich and technologically advanced society. The real threat they posed, and always had posed, was ideological.

How many of those involved do think would have even wanted to blow the thing open rather than enthusiastically go along with it ?

As I said, I think many would have blown it wide open at the ideas stage.

Bearing in mind that the rest would have been working on a strictly need to know basis anyway.I for one would have been on Kennedy’s side in that regardless just based on ideological reasons and beating the Soviets in a rigged ‘space race’ bluff was better for everyone than fighting with them.

But beating them in the space race fair-and-square would be even better! Even on a “need to know” basis, vast numbers of people still have to know basically what is going on, and if you’re dealing with smart people there are always going to be those who make the appropriate inferences.

Didn’t David Kelly want to blow it wide open there were no WMDs in Iraq?

Remind me how that panned out for him.

3 wheeler:
I think you must of missed a few supposed landings…read this clip
Twelve of these astronauts walked on the Moon’s surface, and six of those drove Lunar Roving Vehicles on the Moon. While three astronauts flew to the Moon twice, of which two landed, none landed on the Moon more than once. The nine Apollo missions to the Moon occurred between December 1968 and December 1972.

Apart from these twenty-four people who visited the Moon, no human being has gone beyond low Earth orbit. They have, therefore, been farther from the Earth than anyone else. They are also the only people to have directly viewed the far side of the Moon. The twelve who walked on the Moon are the only people ever to have set foot on an astronomical object other than the Earth.

Of the twenty-four astronauts who flew to the Moon, two went on to command a Skylab mission, one commanded Apollo–Soyuz, one flew as commander for Approach and Landing Tests of the Space Shuttle, and two went on to command orbital Space Shuttle missions. A total of twenty-four NASA astronauts from the Apollo era flew on the Space Shuttle.

The bit in bold is most likely the truth.

GasGas:
This is the real reason the lunar landings stopped:

youtube.com/watch?v=PtBy_ppG4hY

Just too expensive.

The Bottle

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Rjan:

You’ve contradicted yourself in that you’re saying that none of it was classified then saying you’d expect such a bluff to involve the need to classify it.

No I said a legitimate project would surely involve some classified elements. I was countering your characterisation of the Apollo program as having a “classified nature”.

While it’s clear that secrecy was a key part of the whole plan just that ironically the secrecy in question was all part of the bigger much more secret part of it all being one big bluff for the consumption of the Soviets and even to an extent domestic consumption.While we know that the Cold War was rightly an ideological one so it’s clear that the motive was still ultimately that of a defence tactic connected to the Cold War and all the implications of that for those involved with it.

But putting men on the moon had no immediate military or defence function. It’s function was ideological, and if you accept that premise, then the risks of being caught bluffing would far outweigh the gains to be had, because the ideological arena (in which power is drawn from truth and integrity) doesn’t tolerate bluffs and openly mendacious claims.

On that note if Kennedy had said to all those who mattered we’re going to bluff the Soviets into submission both ideologically and militarily in order to hopefully ‘avoid’ the possibility of war and we obviously have to keep it secret from the nation for it to work.

But tacitly, all those involved would have to be of the view that they faced military defeat from the Soviets in the event of an imminent war, and that the Soviets would be the aggressors. Many may have been paranoid about the latter, but nobody seriously thought the Soviets were so far ahead that they could win a military war. There is no reason why the Soviets ought to have been ahead - American was and is an extremely rich and technologically advanced society. The real threat they posed, and always had posed, was ideological.

How many of those involved do think would have even wanted to blow the thing open rather than enthusiastically go along with it ?

As I said, I think many would have blown it wide open at the ideas stage.

Bearing in mind that the rest would have been working on a strictly need to know basis anyway.I for one would have been on Kennedy’s side in that regardless just based on ideological reasons and beating the Soviets in a rigged ‘space race’ bluff was better for everyone than fighting with them.

But beating them in the space race fair-and-square would be even better! Even on a “need to know” basis, vast numbers of people still have to know basically what is going on, and if you’re dealing with smart people there are always going to be those who make the appropriate inferences.

I don’t get your conclusions.

1.Any war with the Soviet Union had to go nuclear by default with no way of beating the Soviet Union in a conventional war.

2.The whole space programme was definitely subject to defence standard classification of its activities or at least a need to know basis.Much of that classification only recently being lifted.

3.It’s also equally obvious that it was seen as being in the national interest to ‘outdo’ the Russkies both technologically and ideologically.If for no other reason than to bluff them regarding US ballistics capabilities and the resulting deterrent effect of that.Not to mention domestic consumption.

4.Not withstanding any of the above it was in the interests of ‘both’ sides to divert the attentions of their respective populations and military machines into a peaceful rivalry wherever possible rather than fighting.On that note see 1.

In which case 3 applied at the point when Kennedy kicked off the Space Race.But which even with all the might of the US industrial machine and know how was probably never going to be able to meet its mission statement.Whether Kennedy actually knew it or was gone from the scene before he could be told is open to question,but moot regardless.

While 4 definitely applied by the point when the Russkies would/could possibly have been in a position to discredit the Apollo Moon missions.IE 1970 if not before.IE the Russians were ‘in with’ NASA by that point and certainly no longer rivals in Space for good reason.Just as Kennedy would have wanted it or maybe even intended from the start.IE a big diversionary publicity scam to stop the two rival sides from fighting. :bulb: :wink: