Afternoon everyone,
I, like a good few others on here have been reading the posts for a couple of years or so now and have at last joined up, my question being prompted mainly by the state of todays weather in some parts of the country as will soon become clear.Anyway, boring myself now so shall get on with it.
Passed my Class 1 and 2 by May 2006, worked at local council for a year through an agency then got taken on by the same council. In my first year whilst on agency Idrove the tarmac trucks and flatbeds towing a trailer with a sit on road rolleretc…, all Domestic Hours work so just had to fill in Drivers Book, no need for a digi card/tacho use.
When these few months ended I was sent to the bin lorry department and have been there ever since, again following Domestic Hours rules, so no digi card/tacho use again, just a drivers book!
Now here comes the crunch leading up to my question. Shortly I will be on the gritter rota, having got my winter service card couple of years ago through the council but missing out on the rota until this year, can anyone spot where this is going yet! 
Dont know the exact reasons, something to do with the rule makers stamping their feet recently in last year or so to do with what is planned or unplanned work but regardless of all that the lads who are regulars on the gritters every year use digi cards,leave the tachograph In Scope so therefore follow EU rules which make things a tiny bit more complicated! 
In a nutshell this is the first time I will have to use my card which on the surface does not look like too much of a problem, put card in, the route is only around 3 hours so probably no break required, set tachograph to rest, remove the card and go home, piece of cake I hear you all cry in unison, whats the problem?
Heres the the question to any of you guys and girls in the know who can advise me please:
The call outs I get may be here and there so will still be on bin lorry round on the days I am not gritting, say for example I get called out today for the sake of argument, will I have to carry on using my digi card in the bin lorry for so many days later following EU rules before I can go back to only using my drivers book on Domestic Hours rules?
Many thanks to anyone who replies, admittedly Ihave not spoken to the people who should know at work yet, only listened to yard talk, but I would appreciate any knowledge from yourselves before my head explodes from all the different opinions people have at work, but like I say that is just yard talk whereas you guys and girls are regularly answering questions and know your stuff.
Any links you can provide to back up your answers from official rules etc would be helpful because I have sneaky feeling the bosses instructions may differ from everyone elses!
Thank You, kept it simple for now, no doubt more related questions to follow.
On days that you work to EU regulations you must comply with the EU break and daily rest requirements, you must also comply with the weekly rest requirement for the same week, so if you were to drive to EU regulations one day next week you would need at least a reduced weekly rest period at the end of the week (assuming you work Monday to Friday).
You only need to use the tachograph on days that you work to EU regulations.
On days that you work to domestic regulations you can use the log book and again must comply with the domestic regulations for that day.
So the answer to your question is that you do not have to continue using the tachograph for any number of days after returning to the domestic regulations.
Highwayhero:
Heres the the question to any of you guys and girls in the know who can advise me please:The call outs I get may be here and there so will still be on bin lorry round on the days I am not gritting, say for example I get called out today for the sake of argument, will I have to carry on using my digi card in the bin lorry for so many days later following EU rules before I can go back to only using my drivers book on Domestic Hours rules?
businesslink.gov.uk/Transpor … 1111_3.pdf - see mixed EU and domestic rules in section 3 on page 29
It seems from your post that gritting is not EU regs exempt ?
Week = a fixed week from sunday midnight to sunday midnight
Any EU driving done in a week means that the rest of the week comes under the EU regs for the purposes of the daily and weekly rest periods
Domestic records (log book/sheet) are authorised as official records for the EU regs in the UK
All domestic driving/work is regarded as ‘other work’ for the EU regs
If you start the day under domestic regs at say 0600 then later that day you get to go on EU regs the time for that day starts at 0600 so a rest period of at least 9 hours must start by 2100
The domestic driving/work for that day is regarded as other work for the eu regs
That week in which you came under EU regs must have at least a 24 hour reduced weekly rest counted for it and if under EU regs for two consecutive weeks then one of those weeks must have a full 45 hour weekly rest counted for it
I think I said all that corectly but I am sure other will correct me if wrong 
I know that in the past my local council tried to get domestic drivers who had been on the bins from 0600 to 1500 ish to do gritting runs from 1900 to around midnight but never come across that recently so I ASSUME they found out it was illegal …
ROG:
Any EU driving done in a week means that the rest of the week comes under the EU regs for the purposes of the daily and weekly rest periods
No it doesn’t, you only have to comply with EU daily rest requirements on days that you work to EU regulations.
tachograph:
ROG:
Any EU driving done in a week means that the rest of the week comes under the EU regs for the purposes of the daily and weekly rest periodsNo it doesn’t, you only have to comply with EU daily rest requirements on days that you work to EU regulations.
Dunno why I said daily for the week - thanks for the correction
Thanks very much tachograph and ROG for your replies, going to have to have a proper look later at your answers, my brain is all tensed up with it all at the moment and I have a little time before my rota starts anyway so not urgent at the moment, just want to be prepared as much as possible.
Just to touch on something you said ROG, the way I understand it with the gritters now is that fairly recently over the last year or two,or something like that,only assuming, is that the authorities that determine the rules are saying that if you are on call it should be classed as planned work and therefore not exempt from EU rules, like you automatically assume when you look at the list of EU exemptions that normally include gritters, bin lorries etc…
Personally that seems a bit odd to me because you dont know when you will be called out do you, the employer puts you on standby obviously to be there ready just in case, but you would have thought that regardless of you being in the background on call, as soon as the weather deteriorates the situation would then become classed as an emergency, therefore making you exempt from EU rules■■?
For anyone reading this though dont take this explanation as gospel, this is my first year on gritting, first time even using a digi card,just passing on snippets from what Ihave heard so far without actually speaking to anyone yet at management level yet responsible for the gritting side of things. I dont want to confuse anyone perhaps who will be shortly doing the same thing, or worse than that, someone who has been doing it for years and is thinking"What is he talking about". 
A very knowledgeable and respected member of this site has just informed me that council gritters are on domestic regs under the road maintenance exemption
businesslink.gov.uk/Transpor … 1111_3.pdf
page 16 derogations from the EU regs
Vehicles used in connection with sewerage, flood protection, water, gas and electricity maintenance services, road maintenance or control, door-to-door household refuse collection or disposal, telegraph or telephone services, radio or television broadcasting and the detection of radio or television transmitters or receivers.
Yeah I know exactly what you mean ROG, really dont know what to say about this situation except that the only thing I do know as fact is one of our lads in Highways who has done it for years does use his digi card and when I asked him if he put tachograph out of scope he just looked vacant at me and did not know what I was talking about so they must be following EU rules if they dont put tacho out of scope■■? I did push the point a couple of times with him too whilst on a refresher course with the gritters so I was clear enough in my question?
I think all I can do now is ask a few more questions at work from the bosses just to be clear, could it be they have chosen to follow EU for whatever reasons only known to them when they dont actually have to, but I cant see why. I never asked the lad on the refresher course how long he had been using his digi card in the gritters, although he has been gritting a few years maybe the use of his digi card is a very recent thing,over last year or two. I shall update this post once I know a little more its all very strange. The thing is, although I have no experience of using digi card, I have actually done stacks of reading on here and the Vosa rules that you and tachograph kindly gave me the link to, so this situation is very confusing when in theory I also assumed gritting is exempt. 
If in doubt ask the boss, at the end of the day if you get things wrong you won’t be answering to the other drivers you’ll be answering to the boss 
Out of scope tacho or log book seems fine for this type of work as long as one or the other is done - both can be used together as long as a total record of everything is done
My GUESS would be that the driver is not using out of scope because he does not know how to or thinks that because it has a tacho it must come under EU regs ■■?
The info that this is domestic and not EU is, I believe, right so that should help you - if doing both jobs in any 24 hour period then just watch your 10 hour driving limit and the 11 hour work limit
Mmm, the trouble is though tachograph, which boss to ask. The last time I asked a question was regarding breaks for Domestic Hours driving, all I wanted to know was where in writing it actually says you should take a break of half an hour at or before six hours in the Domestic Hours rules for HGV, just out of interest because Icould not see it anywhere, and just wanted to know if it was employer policy, or actually the law in case I strayed over by a few minutes now and again because in our job you can be done and tipped in just over six hours!
Anyway, he went over to his desk and pulled out the Vosa rules, trouble is they were the ones for buses which have the orangey coloured background instead of the greeny background ones for HGV! On pointing this out he then searched for the correct rules and pointed his finger at Page 46 annexe 2, you know, the one that just says “adequate rest”, nothing about how long abreak should be, and when! When I also queried that the answer was" well if you are not sure about anything just ring Vosa", ha ha so you see my dilemma about asking a boss. 
Must admit ROG that did cross my mind, when I mentioned Out of Scope I did get the impression he did not know what it was, never mind not knowing how or why to use it but I may be being a little unfair saying that, must try and get some answers this week!
Highwayhero:
The last time I asked a question was regarding breaks for Domestic Hours driving, all I wanted to know was where in writing it actually says you should take a break of half an hour at or before six hours in the Domestic Hours rules for HGV
There are no such rules for LGV on domestic regs
The RTD(WTD) 6 hour rule is for those on EU regs
The normal WTD covers domestic regs and those do not have a legal requirement (a MUST) for breaks and rest but do say ‘entitled to’
ROG:
Highwayhero:
The last time I asked a question was regarding breaks for Domestic Hours driving, all I wanted to know was where in writing it actually says you should take a break of half an hour at or before six hours in the Domestic Hours rules for HGVThere are no such rules for LGV on domestic regs
The RTD(WTD) 6 hour rule is for those on EU regs
The normal WTD covers domestic regs and those do not have a legal requirement (a MUST) for breaks and rest but do say ‘entitled to’
At last, I am not going crazy, someone who confirms what Ihave been thinking for years, thanks ROG, this Domestic Hours breaks thing is the main reason I have trawled through almost all the posts on here over the last couple of years and picked up other things along the way. I am aware you have posted many many times on this subject and also usually in the same posts are others declaring a break HAS to be taken, however the one thing you have included this time that I dont recall seeing before, so apologies if you have included it, is the last bit that says the normal WTD just says “entitled” to and NOT compulsory, in other words you are not committing any offence not having a break!
That being said though,I am not an irresponsible driver, if I am tired I will stop and the bosses insist we do, which in safety terms is fair enough i suppose. The bit I have a problem with is the bosses giving the impression that there is a legal obligation to have a break at or before six hours under Domestic rules when it only actually applies legally to EUregs.
I am aware though it would be pure madness to drive to the maximum 10 hours on our job without taking a break (not that our days are anything like that ),that would be crazy and if I had an accident I am sure Vosa would prosecute that anyway if they could argue tiredness was a contribution to an incident.
Highwayhero:
the normal WTD just says “entitled” to and NOT compulsory, in other words you are not committing any offence not having a break!
Correct
It seems to be worded so it is left to the employee to decide whether or not to take that entitlement
just a question,
it seams that you may notyou have not used you Digital driver card much, I would suggest you try it out to see if it still works and that it still valid.
delboytwo:
just a question,it seams that you may notyou have not used you Digital driver card much, I would suggest you try it out to see if it still works and that it still valid.
Thanks very much for the advice delboytwo, think I should ok because the card is only 18 months- 2 years old, something like that, but I know what you mean, I always keep it seperate from other types of cards too aswell to be on the safe side to avoid problems (famous last words).
Crikey got to learn to type now on top of everything else!
Just a quick update ROG, had a quick passing chat with a lad in our dept who has done the gritting for a few years now, only a minute or two though because we both needed to be in different places
Turns out you may not be far off the mark from what he told me . He confirmed to me that they are on Domestic Regs but the bosses want everyone to use cards purely for their records when they download the information
However, he too, as with the lad who gave us the refresher course the other day, looked expressionless when I asked about putting the Tachograph out of scope ( even though it appears these two lads at least appear to be inadvertantly following EU rules I wonder if any problems infringement wise have not come to light because the gritting shifts are very short and they probably have plenty of rest too, just a thought…)
I hope that upon speaking to other drivers that some of those do put tacho to Out of Scope just to put my mind at rest that that is correct thing to do because its looking very much like your suggestion by the look of it.