Mandela dead

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
21

Rhythm Thief:

Carryfast:

Rhythm Thief:

switchlogic:
Ay up, Carryfast is fighting on two fronts, just like Hitler :wink:

In more ways than one …

As usual with people like Carryfast, anything that may possibly impinge on the “rights” of comfortably - off middle class white males is racism, whereas genuine civil rights abuses of black people are merely lefty bs propaganda. I’m not going to argue the case for or against Mandela, but the tone of CF’s posts is the usual mix of offensive and staggeringly ill - informed. Coupled with his usual propensity to simply state his point of view repeatedly in an increasingly loud voice, as opposed to engaging in reasoned argument, I think I’m out of this thread too.

No it’s just that I’m well aware of the damage that the bs socialist cause can do to a naive working class that believes any of their zb and that includes the obvious reverse racist angle in your post there.Considering that being the ‘right’ colour obviously matters to you whereas **I’m just arguing the case that it’s best all round for the different ideologies and ethnic communities to remain in their right places.**Which ironically is what the ANC and Mugabe’s lot are calling for in the case of Africa for the ethnic Africans.But for ‘some’ reason the socialists don’t want that to apply here in the case of Britain for the ethnic British.

Jesus. Not borderline offensive now, but proper, full on NF racism. However, giving you the benefit of the doubt for one more post:

What “reverse racism” angle in my post?
What is the “right place” for different ethnic communities? How far back are you going? Are we talking the Polish immigrants from five or ten years ago, the Windrush- era immigrants, the 1960s Asian immigrants, the fourteenth century Hugenots, the twelfth century Jews, the Danes, the Romans, the Vikings …
And linked to that last point, what are “ethnic British”? You do know that “British” is a nationality, not a race, don’t you?

It’s you who chose to use colour as the relevant basis for the argument not me.Although it’s obviously an identifying feature of the differences in ethnicity in this case certainly in the case of the raving socialist cause and the ANC and Mugabe regimes using it to determine who is African and who isn’t.

Why is it supposedly NF racist for me to just confirm exactly the same policy which brought peace to the former Yugoslavia and the correct solution which was reached by the Israelis in setting up their own state and the recognition of that state.

As for what is the right ‘place’ for the ethnic communities in question in this case at least one poster has made the point that Africa should be for the ethnic Africans which is what all the issues concerning the end of so called ‘white rule’ was about in disbanding the old Rhodesian and South African governments to be replaced by Mugabe’s and Mandela’s bunch of thugs.Together with an ongoing policy of kicking the ethnic European farming community off their land by way of violence and murder if they don’t go quietly,amongst other racist atrocities committed against the ethnic European community.

So it follows that Britain and the Netherlands should be the right place for the ethnic European Rhodesians and South Africans.Bearing in mind that,just like Mandela and Mugabe and their socialist supporters when it suits them,I don’t believe all the bs that nationality should be based on place of birth.Which would of course be fine according to ANC and the Mugabe regime’s policy towards it’s ethnic European population.However it obviously then wouldn’t selectively be fine in the case of the ethnic African population here and the raving British socialist cause for those Africans to be repatriated back to their ethnic homeland in Africa assuming that Africa is going to be for the Africans.

Now I’ll bet that you’ll say that you don’t support such an idea.In which case it seems strange why you didn’t raise any similar type of ‘racist’ comments in the case of the poster who ( rightly ) called for Africa to be for the ethnic Africans.Again in that case using colour as the relevant issue just as,like the ANC and Mugabe,you have in it’s reverse form,which is fair enough.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=107781&start=30#p1623193

22

switchlogic:
Apparently the Vernon’s (my surname) came here in the 11th century. I think its time I packed my bags as I’m clearly not welcome. Ill move to Vernon in France and be reunited with my long lost family. Incidentally Carry old bean have you looked into your heritage? I’d hate for it to be found out that you’ve been lobbing bloody great bricks from that greenhouse of yours :wink:

As it’s ok for the colour issue to be used by Mandela’s lot when it suits them I’m ethnic white British going back far enough with a bit of Irish from my maternal Grandmother.The relevant thing is that I still live where I belong unlike those ethnic European ‘white’ ‘Africans’ in South Africa and Rhodesia and obviously in that case the ethnic African ‘black’ population living here.

23

I don’t think I’d be holding up Israel as a shining example of how well enforced occupation of a territory works …

I don’t entirely understand how you can argue on the one hand that Mugabe is a racist loony (I’ll not disagree with you there, by the way) and his policy of kicking out the white farmers from Zimbabwe is disastrously ill - conceived and a racist atrocity (again, I’m not arguing), while at the same time arguing that we should carry out a broadly similar strategy on anyone in this country of a different ethnicity, albeit (presumably) minus the violence and murder. If colour doesn’t define ethnicity, and birthplace doesn’t define nationality, what criteria will you be using?
I also don’t believe that “Africa should be for the Africans”, any more than I believe that Britain should be for the British or Switzerland should be for the Swiss. At the very least, I believe that the definition of “Britishness” is flexible and ever - changing, as witness the huge variety of immigrants who have come to Britain over the centuries. My own family - Yorkshire for as far back as we can trace - likely came over as Danish immigramts in the twelfth century. There are people here descended from American airmen stationed here in the Second World War, and from German prisoners of war. There are the descendents of the “Windrush” Jamaican immigrants - encouraged over here in the early 1950s by the UK government from a UK colony to help out with an employment crisis, let’s not forget. There are descendents of French protestants who fled here in the 1500s to avoid religious persecution, and descendents of Polish airmen who flew Spitfires in the Battle of Britain. How are you going to even start sorting all this lot out? Most of them seem to me to have a very strong claim to “Britishness”, whatever that is.

24

Rhythm Thief:
I don’t think I’d be holding up Israel as a shining example of how well enforced occupation of a territory works …

I don’t entirely understand how you can argue on the one hand that Mugabe is a racist loony (I’ll not disagree with you there, by the way) and his policy of kicking out the white farmers from Zimbabwe is disastrously ill - conceived and a racist atrocity (again, I’m not arguing), while at the same time arguing that we should carry out a broadly similar strategy on anyone in this country of a different ethnicity, albeit (presumably) minus the violence and murder. If colour doesn’t define ethnicity, and birthplace doesn’t define nationality, what criteria will you be using?
I also don’t believe that “Africa should be for the Africans”, any more than I believe that Britain should be for the British or Switzerland should be for the Swiss. At the very least, I believe that the definition of “Britishness” is flexible and ever - changing, as witness the huge variety of immigrants who have come to Britain over the centuries. My own family - Yorkshire for as far back as we can trace - likely came over as Danish immigramts in the twelfth century. There are people here descended from American airmen stationed here in the Second World War, and from German prisoners of war. There are the descendents of the “Windrush” Jamaican immigrants - encouraged over here in the early 1950s by the UK government from a UK colony to help out with an employment crisis, let’s not forget. There are descendents of French protestants who fled here in the 1500s to avoid religious persecution, and descendents of Polish airmen who flew Spitfires in the Battle of Britain. How are you going to even start sorting all this lot out? Most of them seem to me to have a very strong claim to “Britishness”, whatever that is.

If you’re saying that colour doesn’t define ethnicity and birthplace does how can you justify the removal of both the Rhodesian and South African governments on the basis of Africa for the Africans and ‘white rule’ had to end which is actually what happened.Which is no different to me saying that we should have no black politicians or a black president of the USA.Ironically,as I’ve said,I actually support the idea of everyone where they belong and everyone in their place.While you’re then selectively turning all that round when it suits you in the case of Africans living outside of Africa.The fact is if we don’t repatriate those remaining ethnic European Africans,as genocide watch rightly points out,sooner or later they’ll be massacred by the ethnic African majority.By the same yardstick it’s only fair in that case that we repatriate our ethnic African population to where they belong.The fact is you’re just saying what every raving socialist has said previously in wanting to apply double standards in the case of the ethnic european white African population in Rhodesia and South Africa.

As for Israel the socialists don’t like it because it’s the inconvenient truth that proves that the world can’t and shouldn’t live together as one integrated homogenous lot.The fact is it’s their homeland and it’s where they belong and they’ve lost enough of their ethnic group over the years to prove it.

25

I must say this must be the best debate for a long time.

He’s dead and every news story starts with the death of MD. Time for the news to move on.

Funny how they only show the bits where he changed tactics whilst in prison and his release.

About time they showed everything about the man and his doings good and bad…

26

So many contradictions in one man, it’s amazing. If Carry were PM he’d probably restrict everyone to their home counties, and you’d need a visa to visit. ‘Can I see your papers’ ‘ago back to Sussex at once, you don’t belong in Surrey’

27

Carryfast:
I don’t believe all the bs that nationality should be based on place of birth.

You said it, not me.
I’m not trying to justify the removal of any governments, or the repatriation of any people … you are. And you’re doing your usual thing of cherrypicking points, not answering them anyway and twisting things I’ve not said to make it look like I have.
Israel isn’t the homeland of the Israelis. As it happens, Palestine in the 19th century was inhabited by a broadly multicultural population, made up of maybe 85% muslims, 10% Christians and 5% Jews, all living in peace and getting along famously. (The key words in that sentence are “multicultural” and “peace”.) What spoiled it for everyone was an extremist minority of Jews known as Zionists, who decided in the late 1800s to colonize Palestine and create a Jewish state. This was fine at first, but, as more and more Zionists arrived the original inhabitants became increasingly alarmed at the Zionist rhetoric. Eventually fighting broke out and in 1947 the UN intervened.
This is where the trouble really started, and it basically progressed through Israel conquering all of Palestine other than the Gaza Strip, which it occupied illegally during the 1967 war. However, my point is that - far from what you seem to believe - Palestine was ticking along quite nicely as a multicultural country until the Zionists occupied the land. I can’t help but draw parallels with your own ideas about enforced repatriation, which - if it went anything like the Zionist occupation of Israel - would be disastrous.

28

I have a friend who lives in Botswana on a farm which has been in her family for generations. She has been shot, assaulted and regularly threatened. She has had farm dogs shot and poisoned. One of her farm workers was hanged. She or her family have never in the past done anything against the local villagers. She lives in fear, but short of turning her back and leaving her life, family home and all possessions she has no choice but to continue to farm.
She employs 5 local farm workers, 3 security staff and a house assistant. She regularly helps the local school, providing fresh food and also teaches for free.
What was once a beautiful place is now a death trap for farmers.

29

happysack:
I have a friend who lives in Botswana on a farm which has been in her family for generations. She has been shot, assaulted and regularly threatened. She has had farm dogs shot and poisoned. One of her farm workers was hanged. She or her family have never in the past done anything against the local villagers. She lives in fear, but short of turning her back and leaving her life, family home and all possessions she has no choice but to continue to farm.
She employs 5 local farm workers, 3 security staff and a house assistant. She regularly helps the local school, providing fresh food and also teaches for free.
What was once a beautiful place is now a death trap for farmers.

Funny how the PC brigade who run the media don’t seem to report stuff like this

30

I love the messages she sends me, brightens up many day… Black poaching gangs stole some of my stock, in daylight and at gunpoint, or house dog had left amputated after it was caught in a trap, or working dogs poisoned again… still that would never happen in this country, would it?

31

GOG47:

happysack:
I have a friend who lives in Botswana on a farm which has been in her family for generations. She has been shot, assaulted and regularly threatened. She has had farm dogs shot and poisoned. One of her farm workers was hanged. She or her family have never in the past done anything against the local villagers. She lives in fear, but short of turning her back and leaving her life, family home and all possessions she has no choice but to continue to farm.
She employs 5 local farm workers, 3 security staff and a house assistant. She regularly helps the local school, providing fresh food and also teaches for free.
What was once a beautiful place is now a death trap for farmers.

Funny how the PC brigade who run the media don’t seem to report stuff like this

Why on earth would they? Hardly a story of international significance or relevant to the average Brit now is it? If your interested in the internal politics of Botswana then I dare say there’s many local media outlets you can turn to.

32

Rhythm Thief:

Carryfast:
I don’t believe all the bs that nationality should be based on place of birth.

You said it, not me.
I’m not trying to justify the removal of any governments, or the repatriation of any people … you are. And you’re doing your usual thing of cherrypicking points, not answering them anyway and twisting things I’ve not said to make it look like I have.
Israel isn’t the homeland of the Israelis. As it happens, Palestine in the 19th century was inhabited by a broadly multicultural population, made up of maybe 85% muslims, 10% Christians and 5% Jews, all living in peace and getting along famously. (The key words in that sentence are “multicultural” and “peace”.) What spoiled it for everyone was an extremist minority of Jews known as Zionists, who decided in the late 1800s to colonize Palestine and create a Jewish state. This was fine at first, but, as more and more Zionists arrived the original inhabitants became increasingly alarmed at the Zionist rhetoric. Eventually fighting broke out and in 1947 the UN intervened.
This is where the trouble really started, and it basically progressed through Israel conquering all of Palestine other than the Gaza Strip, which it occupied illegally during the 1967 war. However, my point is that - far from what you seem to believe - Palestine was ticking along quite nicely as a multicultural country until the Zionists occupied the land. I can’t help but draw parallels with your own ideas about enforced repatriation, which - if it went anything like the Zionist occupation of Israel - would be disastrous.

You really are a full on believer in the socialist cause.In which case I know there’s no point in trying to change your mind because as usual when they’ve been brainwashed by it they very rarely if ever want to listen to any other argument except their own bs rhetoric.

So you say you’re not trying to justify the ‘removal of any governments’ or ‘repatriation of any people’.Yet you’re on here supporting a bunch of thugs in the ANC and Mugabe regimes,which obviously includes Mandela,who have already done the former of those with the full support of those with your view,and who are well on the way to doing the latter,assuming those ethnic Europeans still living in South Africa and Rhodesia have the sense to get the hell out of there before the natives finish the job they’ve started by way of push coming to shove.While obviously taking the opposite view in the case of the ethnic African population living here.Then you’ve got the nerve to say that it’s me who’s cherry picking my arguments.

As for your re writing of actual history,concerning the setting up of the Israeli state and the reasons for them doing so and then having to defend that state against numerous Russian supported attempts by the Arabs to throw them back into the sea,such bs is just another example that proves that there’s actually no difference whatsoever between a national ‘socialist’ or any other type of zb socialist.

33

I see Carrys new favourite word is brainwashed. You know Carry old bean calling anyone who doesn’t agree with you brainwashed is pathetically lame. You’re more brainwashed than any of us with your extreme right wing propaganda.

34

Carryfast:
[You really are a full on believer in the socialist cause.In which case I know there’s no point in trying to change your mind because as usual when they’ve been brainwashed by it they very rarely if ever want to listen to any other argument except their own bs rhetoric.

Oh, the irony! :laughing:

Carryfast:
So you say you’re not trying to justify the ‘removal of any governments’ or ‘repatriation of any people’.Yet you’re on here supporting a bunch of thugs in the ANC and Mugabe regimes,which obviously includes Mandela,who have already done the former of those with the full support of those with your view,and who are well on the way to doing the latter,assuming those ethnic Europeans still living in South Africa and Rhodesia have the sense to get the hell out of there before the natives finish the job they’ve started by way of push coming to shove.While obviously taking the opposite view in the case of the ethnic African population living here.Then you’ve got the nerve to say that it’s me who’s cherry picking my arguments.

But I’m not doing any of those things. I appreciate that it suits your narrow world view to put people in convenient boxes, but I’ve never expressed support for Mugabe or his odious regime (or Mandela, come to that: I don’t pretend to know a great deal about him). Unless you start arguing - preferably intelligently - against what I’ve actually said I don’t think there’s much point prolonging this.

Carryfast:
As for your re writing of actual history,concerning the setting up of the Israeli state and the reasons for them doing so and then having to defend that state against numerous Russian supported attempts by the Arabs to throw them back into the sea,such bs is just another example that proves that there’s actually no difference whatsoever between a national ‘socialist’ or any other type of zb socialist.

Go on then: tell us what actually happened. Give me some evidence. Which part of my “rewriting of history” was wrong? I’d like to correect it.

35

switchlogic:

GOG47:

happysack:
I have a friend who lives in Botswana on a farm which has been in her family for generations. She has been shot, assaulted and regularly threatened. She has had farm dogs shot and poisoned. One of her farm workers was hanged. She or her family have never in the past done anything against the local villagers. She lives in fear, but short of turning her back and leaving her life, family home and all possessions she has no choice but to continue to farm.
She employs 5 local farm workers, 3 security staff and a house assistant. She regularly helps the local school, providing fresh food and also teaches for free.
What was once a beautiful place is now a death trap for farmers.

Funny how the PC brigade who run the media don’t seem to report stuff like this

Why on earth would they? Hardly a story of international significance or relevant to the average Brit now is it? If your interested in the internal politics of Botswana then I dare say there’s many local media outlets you can turn to.

If white farmers were shooting blacks who encroached onto their farms you can bet your bottom dollar the BBC would be reporting it!

36

GOG47:

switchlogic:

GOG47:

happysack:
I have a friend who lives in Botswana on a farm which has been in her family for generations. She has been shot, assaulted and regularly threatened. She has had farm dogs shot and poisoned. One of her farm workers was hanged. She or her family have never in the past done anything against the local villagers. She lives in fear, but short of turning her back and leaving her life, family home and all possessions she has no choice but to continue to farm.
She employs 5 local farm workers, 3 security staff and a house assistant. She regularly helps the local school, providing fresh food and also teaches for free.
What was once a beautiful place is now a death trap for farmers.

Funny how the PC brigade who run the media don’t seem to report stuff like this

Why on earth would they? Hardly a story of international significance or relevant to the average Brit now is it? If your interested in the internal politics of Botswana then I dare say there’s many local media outlets you can turn to.

If white farmers were shooting blacks who encroached onto their farms you can bet your bottom dollar the BBC would be reporting it!

I see. So I take it from the BBC silence not one white person has killed a black? You’ve a short memory, black’s forcing white farmers off their land in Zimbabwe was headline news for weeks a few years ago…but that doesn’t fit the view of the BBC you’ve constructed does it? The same BBC who the past few days has mentioned Mandela’s terrorist past several times and had Tebbit on yesterday putting an alternate viewpoint. Maybe open your mind a bit and you’ll see its bot all a big conspiracy really. Just in the minds of a few

37

Rhythm Thief:

Carryfast:
[You really are a full on believer in the socialist cause.In which case I know there’s no point in trying to change your mind because as usual when they’ve been brainwashed by it they very rarely if ever want to listen to any other argument except their own bs rhetoric.

Oh, the irony! :laughing:

Carryfast:
So you say you’re not trying to justify the ‘removal of any governments’ or ‘repatriation of any people’.Yet you’re on here supporting a bunch of thugs in the ANC and Mugabe regimes,which obviously includes Mandela,who have already done the former of those with the full support of those with your view,and who are well on the way to doing the latter,assuming those ethnic Europeans still living in South Africa and Rhodesia have the sense to get the hell out of there before the natives finish the job they’ve started by way of push coming to shove.While obviously taking the opposite view in the case of the ethnic African population living here.Then you’ve got the nerve to say that it’s me who’s cherry picking my arguments.

But I’m not doing any of those things. I appreciate that it suits your narrow world view to put people in convenient boxes, but I’ve never expressed support for Mugabe or his odious regime (or Mandela, come to that: I don’t pretend to know a great deal about him). Unless you start arguing - preferably intelligently - against what I’ve actually said I don’t think there’s much point prolonging this.

Carryfast:
As for your re writing of actual history,concerning the setting up of the Israeli state and the reasons for them doing so and then having to defend that state against numerous Russian supported attempts by the Arabs to throw them back into the sea,such bs is just another example that proves that there’s actually no difference whatsoever between a national ‘socialist’ or any other type of zb socialist.

Go on then: tell us what actually happened. Give me some evidence. Which part of my “rewriting of history” was wrong? I’d like to correect it.

So assuming that you don’t agree with the overthrow of the Rhodesian and South African governments on ethnic grounds and you don’t agree with the ‘redistribution’ of farmland on the same basis and you agree that apartheid was required to seperate two totally incompatible ethnic groups then why are you bothering to criticise what I’ve said.

Being that my case is based on the simple fact that you’re dealing with two totally incompatible different ethnic groups one being an alien immigrant European one.In which case either you need to deal with the symptoms in seperating the two or you need to remove the cause which in this case would mean re patriation of the ethnic immigrant group.I’m suggesting that it’s obviously the latter which would be the most preferable being that it’s already lost it’s rights to govern itself on those ethnic grounds and the natives look like they’re going to turn to a violent solution,with examples already having taken place regarding that,if things don’t get sorted soon.By the same yardstick there’s no justification for ethnic African populations to remain here either when they should also be subject to similar conditions regarding their rights to be in government office or to stay here occupying our land.

As for the Israeli issue you obviously need some history lessons being that you’ve obviously been fed a load of bs and obviously believe it.

youtube.com/watch?v=ySvaWWYGbq0

38

switchlogic:

GOG47:

switchlogic:

GOG47:

happysack:
I have a friend who lives in Botswana on a farm which has been in her family for generations. She has been shot, assaulted and regularly threatened. She has had farm dogs shot and poisoned. One of her farm workers was hanged. She or her family have never in the past done anything against the local villagers. She lives in fear, but short of turning her back and leaving her life, family home and all possessions she has no choice but to continue to farm.
She employs 5 local farm workers, 3 security staff and a house assistant. She regularly helps the local school, providing fresh food and also teaches for free.
What was once a beautiful place is now a death trap for farmers.

Funny how the PC brigade who run the media don’t seem to report stuff like this

Why on earth would they? Hardly a story of international significance or relevant to the average Brit now is it? If your interested in the internal politics of Botswana then I dare say there’s many local media outlets you can turn to.

If white farmers were shooting blacks who encroached onto their farms you can bet your bottom dollar the BBC would be reporting it!

I see. So I take it from the BBC silence not one white person has killed a black? You’ve a short memory, black’s forcing white farmers off their land in Zimbabwe was headline news for weeks a few years ago…but that doesn’t fit the view of the BBC you’ve constructed does it? The same BBC who the past few days has mentioned Mandela’s terrorist past several times and had Tebbit on yesterday putting an alternate viewpoint. Maybe open your mind a bit and you’ll see its bot all a big conspiracy really. Just in the minds of a few

I think the basic underlying message is how good it is that there’s an ethnic African president of America and how bad American apartheid was and how good it is that the ANC and Mugabe managed to overthrow the so called ‘white rule’ in South Africa and Rhodesia to be replaced with a racist ethnic African run administration using violence and intimidation against the ethnic immigrant population.You’d have to be blind and deaf to miss that fact.Or just a biased socialist.

39

Carryfast:

switchlogic:

GOG47:

switchlogic:

GOG47:

happysack:
I have a friend who lives in Botswana on a farm which has been in her family for generations. She has been shot, assaulted and regularly threatened. She has had farm dogs shot and poisoned. One of her farm workers was hanged. She or her family have never in the past done anything against the local villagers. She lives in fear, but short of turning her back and leaving her life, family home and all possessions she has no choice but to continue to farm.
She employs 5 local farm workers, 3 security staff and a house assistant. She regularly helps the local school, providing fresh food and also teaches for free.
What was once a beautiful place is now a death trap for farmers.

Funny how the PC brigade who run the media don’t seem to report stuff like this

Why on earth would they? Hardly a story of international significance or relevant to the average Brit now is it? If your interested in the internal politics of Botswana then I dare say there’s many local media outlets you can turn to.

If white farmers were shooting blacks who encroached onto their farms you can bet your bottom dollar the BBC would be reporting it!

I see. So I take it from the BBC silence not one white person has killed a black? You’ve a short memory, black’s forcing white farmers off their land in Zimbabwe was headline news for weeks a few years ago…but that doesn’t fit the view of the BBC you’ve constructed does it? The same BBC who the past few days has mentioned Mandela’s terrorist past several times and had Tebbit on yesterday putting an alternate viewpoint. Maybe open your mind a bit and you’ll see its bot all a big conspiracy really. Just in the minds of a few

I think the basic underlying message is how good it is that there’s an ethnic African president of America and how bad American apartheid was and how good it is that the ANC and Mugabe managed to overthrow the so called ‘white rule’ in South Africa and Rhodesia to be replaced with a racist ethnic African run administration using violence and intimidation against the ethnic immigrant population.You’d have to be blind and deaf to miss that fact.Or just a biased socialist.

You didn’t read my post at all before replying did you? You think the BBC report that Mugabe is a good thing? Jesus you want a conspiracy so you make one up. To Mugabe the BBC is almost enemy number one and all BBC journalists have been banned from Zimbabwe for years. Why do you think that happened? Because they were nice about his regime? Jacob Zuma of SA and the ANC has also had a fair few run ins with the BBC and their coverage of him and his party the past few years and he’s no fan of them either. Open your blinkered eyes and you’d see this

40

So many know it all bores. Luke, go and live there, and then spout your middle class pish. Until you live under threat of the local blacks then you can tell us about your middle class ideals. I know from people living there, that the blacks haveb power, but no intelligence. Chaos rules.