M1 minibus crash, first day in court

[buses]

Juddian:

buses:

Juddian:

If you was a driving past in a wagon what would you have done having avoided it?

If it was me I would have to stop as I’d fear the worst like what happen.

Well i wouldn’t have gone past a stationary lorry sitting in lane one on the limiter as one would (though we would try to move into lane 2 to pass it even then) with the same vehicle sitting on the hard shoulder, my thoughts seeing a stranded vehicle would be the aftermath of an accident or other emergency and i would be expecting to see people or animals or anything on could imagine about to loom into my dipped beam in the vicinity of this stranded vehicle.

I would probably have stopped a couple of hundreds yards after passing the vehicle and, after donning me large hiviz coat and pocketing me phone and torch would have carefully minced along the grass verge to see if the driver had been taken ill, last thing anyone would have expected was some ■■■■■■ up idiot, but then i’m not a copper who would probably have a shrewd idea what might be involved.

However as i said earlier, with the disorientation due to the position of the parked/stranded lorry sitting beside a hard shoulder that has just resumed after an exit slip road, then the potential for someone (probably not as accustomed as we are to the early morning rush to beat the traffic we know happens) to make a different, and with the benefit of hindsight, the wrong judgment call, was magnified many times.

We arn’t perfect drivers either, how many instances stick in your mind when you know deep in your heart that had things worked out differently your actions at the time could have resulted in disaster, for me there were many and some i can still see in my minds eye now many years later, hopefully we learn from them, there but for the grace of God etc.

I agree and would of done the same.

As I’m sure the enquiry will find out. I’m not 100%sure but I’ve been behind a A.I.M wagon on occasions and they come off at J14 to go to Waitrose Brinklow as I’ve followed one there my self so Maybe he missed slip and tryed moving back?Might explain the engine being on.
That theory wouldn’t match the 12min on hammers or break though.

[stanley_knife]

P Stoff:
Truth in what you say but in all accidents it’s all about the perfect storm. Had the pole not been drunk and asleep it may never have happened and everyone would be doing their normal thing. Had the minibus driver just gone round the pole maybe they would still be here and the Brit driver may have just piled into the pole driver. Maybe the Brit driver would have realised. Fact is it didn’t happen and it’s a tragic result for ALL concerned regardless of guilt. Tragic for the poor beggars who have to attend the scene. Tragic for all the families and extended families.

Prison sentences won’t bring anyone back, the guilt will be a heavy sentence. If a lesson is learned then some good will come out of it. The Brit made a mistake that ALL of us have probably done at some stage. The Pole was a loaded gun waiting to go off. Drink and an Artic are not a match in heaven and he chose to do that. The minibus driver made a judgement error and he and his passengers paid the price.

Sad event from all angles

I would agree that all three drivers made mistakes on one level or another, it’s the desperate need of some on here to only see the mistakes of Maseriak and Joseph, and hang them out to dry for it, whilst disregarding Wagstaff’s actions as just a mistake.

[rick_w]

I would agree that all three drivers made mistakes on one level or another, it’s the desperate need of some on here to only see the mistakes of Maseriak and Joseph, and hang them out to dry for it, whilst disregarding Wagstaff’s actions as just a mistake.

HOW VERY TRUE.

[rick_w]

We do have relatively low accident rates, and some of that must be due to us having a strict driving test.

Franglais fro m what I have seen so far you talk a lot of sense but are you having a laugh with that statement?

Our accident rates are poor and our driving test is far from strict.

[mazzer2]

Rick W:
We do have relatively low accident rates, and some of that must be due to us having a strict driving test.

Franglais fro m what I have seen so far you talk a lot of sense but are you having a laugh with that statement?

Our accident rates are poor and our driving test is far from strict.

If you look at the figures that show accidents per 1000 mile or whatever factor they use to compare European roads you will see that the UK’s roads are among the safest in Europe

[gasgas]

About 2000 - 3000 people a year die in incidents on the UK’s roads. Pretty much everyone uses the roads every day, even if they just pop next door.

In contrast, look how many people the medical profession kills every year through carelessness with drugs: independent.co.uk/news/healt … 24226.html

You are far, far safer on the roads then in hospital.

Stay fit and well, folks!

[knight2]

You can argue this way and that all you like, but the truth is before Wagstaff arrived every body was alive after he got there eight were dead.

[carryfast]

Stanley Knife:
It seems to me there are a surprising number of members here who are desperate to hang this solely on the Pole, whilst desperately looking for any avenue that will relieve the Brit of his guilt.

Yes probably because being Brits we have a sense of fair play and don’t like playing politics with people’s lives.

So are you saying that you’d be calling for a mum,who runs into a vehicle stopped in a live lane of a motorway,because its driver is too ■■■■■■ to drive it or even park it properly,to get the maximum sentence possible for her having killed her kids in the resulting collision ?.Or would accepting her plea of guilty to dbcd be more than enough ?.

[juddian]

knight2:
You can argue this way and that all you like, but the truth is before Wagstaff arrived every body was alive after he got there eight were dead.

Agreed.

As lorry drivers, so many of whom consider themselves professionals , we have a responsibility to be not only better than the average road user but to be ready for others to do the unexpected and to take action for their actions as well as for our driving.

Take for example this AIM lorry parked up to all intents and purposes in lane 1.

Yes no doubt a goodly number of vehicles passed it by wihout mishap…i won’t ask why just 1 of those couldn’t have stopped a couple hundred yards down the road and investigate (knowing what was a good possibility of happening, and did), answer because almost no one gives a crap for anyone else any more…and most of those will have been lorries, most non lorries would have been in lanes 2 or 3 because the average cruising speeds for cars and vans would be so much higher at that time of day and most cars/vans stay in the 2nd or 3rd lanes for much of their journeys, many (most) car and van drivers who flashed past at 70mph+ won’t even have registered the vehicle was parked in a live lane and the dangers of which would not have registered with them.
But, not one single lorry driver who passed that AIM lorry would have been unaware of the potential for tragedy.

As i alluded to in a previous post, we cannot expect professional driving capabilities from the average car/van driver, simply they don’t have the miles under the belt, nor do they have the field of vision aided by height that we do, nor most importaantly is driving their vocation as it is ours.
The average car driver will have another job or profession, no one in their right mind would expect a lorry driver to be as competent as those at their normal job, so why do some lorry drivers expect professional driving standards from other roads users, its always baffled me.

Its up to us sometimes, and lets be honest many of us do this several times a day or week, to help prevent the non pro road user from their own mistakes or folly.

Hopefully the mini bus survivors can shed some more light on the events.

[franglais]

Rick W:
We do have relatively low accident rates, and some of that must be due to us having a strict driving test.

Franglais fro m what I have seen so far you talk a lot of sense but are you having a laugh with that statement?

Our accident rates are poor and our driving test is far from strict.

As Mazzer has already said our roads are some of the safest in the world. The figures back that up. Search “Road Accident Deaths By Country” and look at the WHO stats.
Is there room for improvement? Of course. One fatality is one too many.
I can’t really prove that our driving test is tougher than others, but our safe roads suggest we’re doing something better than others.
I’ve driven a lot in Europe and a little in North Africa, and although we all see bad driving in the UK, my personal opinion is, UK standards are higher than in most other countries.
Again it isn’t perfect, and can/should be improved but it’s better than most.
Maybe some of the reason you and I and others see bad driving is actually because it stands out against a backdrop of good driving?
Yeah, looking at an horrific accident and talking about our good safety records seems wrong, agreed. But hopefully you see where I’m coming from.

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

[simcor]

A lot of facts have now come out on this news story and yet people are still trying to second guess everything and come up with ridiculous notions.

We know the aim driver had his licence revoked, we know he was above the limit for driving, we know he was stopped in a live lane on the M1. We know he was asleep at the time and on break.

We know the minibus driver was short on sleep about 3 hours before taking passengers on a long journey.

We know the fed ex truck was the only vehicle not to have seen the parked vehicles and plowed into them.

This is all reported fact from the evidence and court.

The fact remains that all 3 are guilty of contributing to the accident. Regardless of race they all did something stupid that night, whether they intended to or not is irrelevant.

And as for the other truck drivers that blaster their horn at the AIM driver I hope for there sake they dialled 999 when they saw a stationary vehicle, as if they had done that there is a chance this would not have happened. Signs previously could have been used or police of HATO Could have been on site before this tragedy happened.

Having said all that people often have a don’t care attitude and are far more interested in their own journey to think about something else and the consequences. Or the assumption of oh someone else will gave already phoned it in.

There was a chain if events that night and it only takes one of those links of the chain to be broken and the accident might not have happened.

If the aim driver hadn’t stopped it wouldn’t have happened, if the minibus driver hadn’t stopped behind it they wouldn’t have been involved. And if the fed ex driver had been paying attention he wouldn’t have been involved.

Yes nights is harder than days for most people, however the assumption that being on nights and the graveyard shift etc is just wrong. If you cant handle sleeping in the day and being awake at night then you shouldn’t do nights simple as that. Too many people do nights because they can earn more money and too many try to have a daytime life and work at night.

Some people cope OK with nights some don’t.

The same as drivers in the day cab do longer hours and still not get enough sleep at night. Like most things driving when tired is a no go and people do it from all walks of life.

When you drive a 44ton truck you have to make sure you are reasonably rested and fit to drive and attentive.

In fact that applies to driving any vehicle. With the standard of driving too many people take it with a pinch if salt of driving to the best of their ability. And far too many driver do next to no forward planning and people are selfish and only consider themselves and no one else.

[roymondo]

Winseer:
At night, visibility is OK on the M1 in the Milton Keynes/Newport Pagnall stretch, as it’s well lit.

Well lit■■? Apart from the few hundred yards at the actual service areas there is no street lighting on the M1 from just North of the Northants/Bucks border (where the emergency services underpass links Northbound and Southbound carriageways) until you get to Luton - that’s over 20 miles…

[rick_w]

Franglais:

Rick W:
We do have relatively low accident rates, and some of that must be due to us having a strict driving test.

Franglais fro m what I have seen so far you talk a lot of sense but are you having a laugh with that statement?

Our accident rates are poor and our driving test is far from strict.

As Mazzer has already said our roads are some of the safest in the world. The figures back that up. Search “Road Accident Deaths By Country” and look at the WHO stats.
Is there room for improvement? Of course. One fatality is one too many.
I can’t really prove that our driving test is tougher than others, but our safe roads suggest we’re doing something better than others.
I’ve driven a lot in Europe and a little in North Africa, and although we all see bad driving in the UK, my personal opinion is, UK standards are higher than in most other countries.
Again it isn’t perfect, and can/should be improved but it’s better than most.
Maybe some of the reason you and I and others see bad driving is actually because it stands out against a backdrop of good driving?
Yeah, looking at an horrific accident and talking about our good safety records seems wrong, agreed. But hopefully you see where I’m coming from.

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

Of course I see where you are coming from and you are correct in what you say however although we supposedly have the safest roads (probably safer than some other countries) but in reality they are far from that and there are far too many accidents which are caused by bad driving which stems down to the driving test not being stringent enough.I certainly do not feel safe sometimes when I see the way others drive. The test itself is not really adequate ( car or LGV ) and that has a big reflection of the poor standard of driving we see on our roads. Also drivers in my book should be regularily checked (by properly qualified examiners) and assessed to eliminate complacement and obvious faults.

Unfortunately I doubt all of this will happen but until it does these horrendous accidents will keep happening.

Rant over.

[stanley_knife]

Carryfast:

Stanley Knife:
It seems to me there are a surprising number of members here who are desperate to hang this solely on the Pole, whilst desperately looking for any avenue that will relieve the Brit of his guilt.

Yes probably because being Brits we have a sense of fair play and don’t like playing politics with people’s lives.

■■? You’re going to have to explain that to me CF.

Carryfast:
So are you saying that you’d be calling for a mum,who runs into a vehicle stopped in a live lane of a motorway,because its driver is too ■■■■■■ to drive it or even park it properly,to get the maximum sentence possible for her having killed her kids in the resulting collision ?.Or would accepting her plea of guilty to dbcd be more than enough ?.

Ahh this bit I do understand - typical Carryfast - the inability to argue the point you want to argue so deflect to a different scenario that has no relevance to the original but satisfies your needs.

[carryfast]

Stanley Knife:

Carryfast:

Stanley Knife:
It seems to me there are a surprising number of members here who are desperate to hang this solely on the Pole, whilst desperately looking for any avenue that will relieve the Brit of his guilt.

Yes probably because being Brits we have a sense of fair play and don’t like playing politics with people’s lives.

■■? You’re going to have to explain that to me CF.

Carryfast:
So are you saying that you’d be calling for a mum,who runs into a vehicle stopped in a live lane of a motorway,because its driver is too ■■■■■■ to drive it or even park it properly,to get the maximum sentence possible for her having killed her kids in the resulting collision ?.Or would accepting her plea of guilty to dbcd be more than enough ?.

Ahh this bit I do understand - typical Carryfast - the inability to argue the point you want to argue so deflect to a different scenario that has no relevance to the original but satisfies your needs.

It’s you who obviously seems to think that the nationality of the AIM driver v his Brit counterpart is important.Why might that be if you’re not pushing some political agenda ?.

So exactly what’s the big difference between the scenario which I described.People have died because of the driving standards of the driver who ran into the stationary vehicle in a live lane of a motorway in both cases.Although you can make the stationary truck driven by a ■■■■■■ Brit and place a minibus driven by a Brit with Brit passengers,having stopped between the stopped truck and the unfortunate Brit mum’s car if it helps you with actually answering the question.

While you do know that,unlike ‘the Pole’, ‘the Brit’ has actually entered a plea of ‘guilty’.In which case see above.

[winseer]

Roymondo:

Winseer:
At night, visibility is OK on the M1 in the Milton Keynes/Newport Pagnall stretch, as it’s well lit.

Well lit■■? Apart from the few hundred yards at the actual service areas there is no street lighting on the M1 from just North of the Northants/Bucks border (where the emergency services underpass links Northbound and Southbound carriageways) until you get to Luton - that’s over 20 miles…

I thought this impact was at the exit slip of J14 southbound? That’s Newport Pagnell turnoff, and there are plenty of motorway street lights?

Nope. I stand corrected. No street lights. Just looked on the streetview.

FFS I’ve lost my memory of the M1 drives much in the last 4 years I’ve not driven down that bit…
My memory of it was that there were street lights all the way upto the Catthorpe Junction (J19) and then you were in the dark until Leicester…

[corij]

notice that it seems its taken as gospel that the Polish guy was asleep in his truck . yeh right . thats just What He Said . with the engine running ,no way was he asleep , hes lying . only twice the legal limit he had no reason to suddenly stop there unless he intended on backing up

and when the door was opened he said all innocently “can i go now?” as if he had noticed nothing at all. LIAR .
Also noticed his supervisor [another Pole] couldnt smell alcohol on him, well he would say that,backing up a fellow countryman when push comes to shove . Your not telling me that in the month he had worked for the firm he hadnt already bent the rules and been ignored

[roymondo]

Winseer:

Roymondo:

Winseer:
At night, visibility is OK on the M1 in the Milton Keynes/Newport Pagnall stretch, as it’s well lit.

Well lit■■? Apart from the few hundred yards at the actual service areas there is no street lighting on the M1 from just North of the Northants/Bucks border (where the emergency services underpass links Northbound and Southbound carriageways) until you get to Luton - that’s over 20 miles…

I thought this impact was at the exit slip of J14 southbound? That’s Newport Pagnell turnoff, and there are plenty of motorway street lights?

Nope - there are no lights on the Motorway at J14. The only streetlights are on the slip roads and the roundabout above the Motorway.

[corij]

id also wager the road was busy as hell ,being bank holiday everyone heading out erly. thats why he sat there 12 mins before making his move .just too darn busy even for a risk taker . could be Mr Fedex had loadsa traffic in front of him,on the straight or cars passing him by in lane 2 and all of a sudden is faced with the stationarys

[pierrot_14]

corij:
notice that it seems its taken as gospel that the Polish guy was asleep in his truck . yeh right . thats just What He Said . with the engine running ,no way was he asleep , hes lying . only twice the legal limit he had no reason to suddenly stop there unless he intended on backing up

and when the door was opened he said all innocently “can i go now?” as if he had noticed nothing at all. LIAR .
Also noticed his supervisor [another Pole] couldnt smell alcohol on him, well he would say that,backing up a fellow countryman when push comes to shove . Your not telling me that in the month he had worked for the firm he hadnt already bent the rules and been ignored

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m sure that the reports say that he had been stopped for 12 minutes, so where does the reversing because he’d missed his exit? Did it take him 12 minutes to find reverse?