Carryfast:
Unfortunate’ in the sense that he might have listened too often to those saying that driving a truck doesn’t take more skill and involve as much,if not more, responsibility,as driving a train.Then dropped his level alertness to fit the the erroneous stereotype.
It’s very difficult to decipher your posts… but…
From where do you get your evidence for this?
Let’s get this right.Firstly I said ‘might have’.As in the wreckage and the fact that he’s been charged with contributing to the collision suggests that he ‘might have’ ‘possibly’ ran into the the truck ahead of him and the mini bus or less likely just the mini bus.IE not noticing an obstruction/s well ahead and in time to do something about it and/or not leaving sufficient seperation distance regards same etc etc.While as we know a train driver won’t usually be held accountable in the event of a collision with anything ahead except in the situation of a signal passed at danger.While a truck driver most certainly will.While generally not having the luxury of any advanced warning of obstructions on the road ahead whatsoever.While the wage structure and general view is that driving a train is the more skilled job.
Having said that there seems to now be an account of the circumstances which suggests that the mini bus driver,‘might’ ‘possibly’ have somehow went into the path of the Fed Ex truck resulting in the collision,in an attempt to avoid colliding with the truck ahead of him.But which would leave the question would just colliding with the minibus explain the damage to Fed Ex truck and if not then how did the Fed Ex truck also manage to collide with the truck ahead.Possibly Fed Ex truck was actually in lane 2 and then collected the lane changing minibus on the nearside which then threw the Fed Ex truck back into lane 1 ?.
Which opens a whole new can of worms regarding the question has the Fed Ex driver been wrongfully arrested and charged and if so why.While I have my own personal view of the motives of the establishment if that was the case.
Hope that helps.
There’s a lot of supposition to follow.
It appears that AIM truck was stationary in Lane one. Bus was in Lane one and fed ex in Lane two, overtaking bus.
Bus sees the obstruction late and tries to leave lane one, only to collide with fed ex. Why didn’t fed ex see the stationary truck at the same time as the bus? If he had, surely he would realise bus was in trouble and taken avoiding action? Was he distracted? Was he on the phone? Would explain the dangerous driving aspect. Like I said, supposition.
The truth may come out later.
Fed Ex may have seen the stationary AIM truck, that’s why he was in lane 2 but presumed the minibus was exiting up the slip road until he pulled in front of him at the last second
Carryfast:
Let’s get this right.Firstly I said ‘might have’.As in the wreckage and the fact that he’s been charged with contributing to the collision suggests that he ‘might have’ ‘possibly’ ran into the the truck ahead of him and the mini bus or less likely just the mini bus.IE not noticing an obstruction/s well ahead and in time to do something about it and/or not leaving sufficient seperation distance regards same etc etc.While as we know a train driver won’t usually be held accountable in the event of a collision with anything ahead except in the situation of a signal passed at danger.While a truck driver most certainly will.While generally not having the luxury of any advanced warning of obstructions on the road ahead whatsoever.While the wage structure and general view is that driving a train is the more skilled job.
Having said that there seems to now be an account of the circumstances which suggests that the mini bus driver,‘might’ ‘possibly’ have somehow went into the path of the Fed Ex truck resulting in the collision,in an attempt to avoid colliding with the truck ahead of him.But which would leave the question would just colliding with the minibus explain the damage to Fed Ex truck and if not then how did the Fed Ex truck also manage to collide with the truck ahead.Possibly Fed Ex truck was actually in lane 2 and then collected the lane changing minibus on the nearside which then threw the Fed Ex truck back into lane 1 ?.
Which opens a whole new can of worms regarding the question has the Fed Ex driver been wrongfully arrested and charged and if so why.While I have my own personal view of the motives of the establishment if that was the case.
Hope that helps.
There’s a lot of supposition to follow.
It appears that AIM truck was stationary in Lane one. Bus was in Lane one and fed ex in Lane two, overtaking bus.
Bus sees the obstruction late and tries to leave lane one, only to collide with fed ex. Why didn’t fed ex see the stationary truck at the same time as the bus? If he had, surely he would realise bus was in trouble and taken avoiding action? Was he distracted? Was he on the phone? Would explain the dangerous driving aspect. Like I said, supposition.
The truth may come out later.
As I’ve said Fed Ex truck being in lane 2 would be a game changer.In an ideal world yes he’d have done everything possible to make space for mini bus driver to change lanes by moving to lane 3.While an emergency stop would be unrealistic in that situation.But that supposes lane 3 was empty.While at the end of the day it was the responsibility of the mini bus driver to be driving in lane 1 in a way which would have allowed him to stop and/or allow the Fed Ex truck to pass before changing lanes regardless of the status of the truck ahead in lane 1, whether it was stopped or moving.Meanwhile the law were quick enough to make the case of drink driving against the AIM truck driver so it shouldn’t be too much trouble to also just tell us exactly what they’ve actually got on the Fed Ex driver.Failing to to move into lane 3 to avoid a collision with a muppet who can’t drive,changing lanes from lane 1,not being good enough in that regard.Without that simple question being answered I smell a rat.
Dipper_Dave:
as we all know deep down no one really gives a fork about anyone else unless they are friends or family.
Do you actually believe that?
Good point but my beliefs are fluid, they eb and flow by experience. As a generalisation, with the pressures of society as they are today nobody gives a fork.
But and it’s a big ‘but’, the only thing one needs to feel compassion is a moment of connection. This can be by sound, sight or deed.
We can be better, we should be better, we are designed to be better. However the easy route is just to think ‘thank fork it wasn’t me’.
The game of life has no winners.
In the end it doesn’t really matter.
Now that Dave, is very deep.
Although I would point to the thousands of selfless people - doing good deeds for no reward, and in many cases not even recognition.
But I’ll take your ‘buts and fluidity’ to mean you care, but life goes on - for a while at least. As you alluded to the end… all good things do come to an end.
Yes but to do a good deed no one should ever know about it.
One expects a reward be it financial or praise from ones peers.
A truly selfless act has no witness.
But I’m way off topic now and this thread is not the place.
Whatever the outcome of this is I believe none of these drivers had any intent to kill, lessons can be learnt but society demands a scapegoat and that they will have.
Hysterical over-reactions will come and changes will happen. Have no doubt this event will affect us all.
The irony of this is that I have received the minutes this weekend from my own employers forum and one of the things mentioned was that there was concern over driver assessments and there was to much focus on quantity rather than quality of drivers employed.
Till the facts come to light one can only speculate why a driver was stuck in a live lane for 12minutes. But those facts will of course fit into someone’s agenda quite nicely as they always do.
Carryfast:
Let’s get this right.Firstly I said ‘might have’.As in the wreckage and the fact that he’s been charged with contributing to the collision suggests that he ‘might have’ ‘possibly’ ran into the the truck ahead of him and the mini bus or less likely just the mini bus.IE not noticing an obstruction/s well ahead and in time to do something about it and/or not leaving sufficient seperation distance regards same etc etc.While as we know a train driver won’t usually be held accountable in the event of a collision with anything ahead except in the situation of a signal passed at danger.While a truck driver most certainly will.While generally not having the luxury of any advanced warning of obstructions on the road ahead whatsoever.While the wage structure and general view is that driving a train is the more skilled job.
Having said that there seems to now be an account of the circumstances which suggests that the mini bus driver,‘might’ ‘possibly’ have somehow went into the path of the Fed Ex truck resulting in the collision,in an attempt to avoid colliding with the truck ahead of him.But which would leave the question would just colliding with the minibus explain the damage to Fed Ex truck and if not then how did the Fed Ex truck also manage to collide with the truck ahead.Possibly Fed Ex truck was actually in lane 2 and then collected the lane changing minibus on the nearside which then threw the Fed Ex truck back into lane 1 ?.
Which opens a whole new can of worms regarding the question has the Fed Ex driver been wrongfully arrested and charged and if so why.While I have my own personal view of the motives of the establishment if that was the case.
Hope that helps.
There’s a lot of supposition to follow.
It appears that AIM truck was stationary in Lane one. Bus was in Lane one and fed ex in Lane two, overtaking bus.
Bus sees the obstruction late and tries to leave lane one, only to collide with fed ex. Why didn’t fed ex see the stationary truck at the same time as the bus? If he had, surely he would realise bus was in trouble and taken avoiding action? Was he distracted? Was he on the phone? Would explain the dangerous driving aspect. Like I said, supposition.
The truth may come out later.
As I’ve said Fed Ex truck being in lane 2 would be a game changer.In an ideal world yes he’d have done everything possible to make space for mini bus driver to change lanes by moving to lane 3.While an emergency stop would be unrealistic in that situation.But that supposes lane 3 was empty.While at the end of the day it was the responsibility of the mini bus driver to be driving in lane 1 in a way which would have allowed him to stop and/or allow the Fed Ex truck to pass before changing lanes regardless of the status of the truck ahead in lane 1, whether it was stopped or moving.Meanwhile the law were quick enough to make the case of drink driving against the AIM truck driver so it shouldn’t be too much trouble to also just tell us exactly what they’ve actually got on the Fed Ex driver.Failing to to move into lane 3 to avoid a collision with a muppet who can’t drive,changing lanes from lane 1,not being good enough in that regard.Without that simple question being answered I smell a rat.
paul_r:
I am not willy waving or bragging but I keep reading the comments and comparison with train drivers.
I am an ex class 1 night trunker driving artics and wag and drag a-frames, moved on to joining the DVSA voluntary register of LGV Driving instructors in class 1 and now am driving trains.
The hardest job so far - train driving. Am I worth my wages? I believe so yes.
It’s reported that the AIM truck had stopped for 12 minutes in lane one .
But what if he was actually in the hard shoulder and had one or two feet of his truck sticking out in lane one, causing the catastrophic events of the others to take action to avoid hitting AIM ?
This crash is just yet another black mark against this industry & example of the sorry levels we have sunk too in regards to driver standards & professionalism. I wasn’t even shocked by the story.
Day in day out I am witness to HGV drivers tailgating, bullying other road users, overtaking on roundabouts, generally driving wagons like cars, being discourteous, parking badly, looking like scruffs, being ill mannered at customers sites & leaving a mess. All at the same time forcing employers to consider/actually install internal facing cameras & alcolocks through irresponsible mobile phone use & turning up to work under the influence.
I honestly think that the industry is too far gone & the remaining professionals amongst us are forever going to continue being dragged down by the selfish desire for cheap ‘on demand’ labour by tight fisted operators.
Dipper_Dave:
Yes but to do a good deed no one should ever know about it.
One expects a reward be it financial or praise from ones peers.
A truly selfless act has no witness…
I can’t agree with that. Just to offer one ‘example’ and there are many others - I would point to: the soldier who throws himself on a grenade ‘takes one for the chaps’ of which there have been a few… very selfless - very visible.
But as you say, tis another subject.
I expect people will use the retrospectives of this horrendous incident to argue for their raison d’etre.
It would seem likely that an ex post facto / legal reaction / legislation change… should be expected. It seems inevitable… I personally have no objection if technology can successfully prevent or reduce future occurrences.
paul_r:
I am not willy waving or bragging but I keep reading the comments and comparison with train drivers.
I am an ex class 1 night trunker driving artics and wag and drag a-frames, moved on to joining the DVSA voluntary register of LGV Driving instructors in class 1 and now am driving trains.
The hardest job so far - train driving. Am I worth my wages? I believe so yes.
Yes.
Ive said it before, ‘driving’ a train is the esay bit.
Doing it day in and day out, and not make any mistakes is not!
Most people can either delete, rewrite or cover up their mistakes, train drivers cannot!
I would challenge anyone who thinks its easy to go on a sim day- pitch dark, wet rails with some leaf mulch on them and try an all stops service between Penzance and Plymouth! I bet it would be forking hilarious!
Not sure about 70K though, the majority are around the 46K mark with some upto about 55-58K.
rob22888:
This crash is just yet another black mark against this industry & example of the sorry levels we have sunk too in regards to driver standards & professionalism. I wasn’t even shocked by the story.
Day in day out I am witness to HGV drivers tailgating, bullying other road users, overtaking on roundabouts, generally driving wagons like cars, being discourteous, parking badly, looking like scruffs, being ill mannered at customers sites & leaving a mess. All at the same time forcing employers to consider/actually install internal facing cameras & alcolocks through irresponsible mobile phone use & turning up to work under the influence.
I honestly think that the industry is too far gone & the remaining professionals amongst us are forever going to continue being dragged down by the selfish desire for cheap ‘on demand’ labour by tight fisted operators.
Don’t disagree with your sentiment, but your comment stipulates that there were never accidents back in the good old days. You could probably say with confidence that the accident rate has been declining for years in line with the accident rate for roads in general. Don’t forget that in car-vs-truck collisions, it is still the car at fault in the majority of crashes.
Rear-end collisions are still too frequent, though. Although I don’t think you can expect any driver to see and respond in time for something stopped on an unlit motorway, the new technologies that are making their way through the industry should put a stop to it. i.e. the auto braking thing on merc/volvos.
rob22888:
This crash is just yet another black mark against this industry & example of the sorry levels we have sunk too in regards to driver standards & professionalism. I wasn’t even shocked by the story.
Day in day out I am witness to HGV drivers tailgating, bullying other road users, overtaking on roundabouts, generally driving wagons like cars, being discourteous, parking badly, looking like scruffs, being ill mannered at customers sites & leaving a mess. All at the same time forcing employers to consider/actually install internal facing cameras & alcolocks through irresponsible mobile phone use & turning up to work under the influence.
I honestly think that the industry is too far gone & the remaining professionals amongst us are forever going to continue being dragged down by the selfish desire for cheap ‘on demand’ labour by tight fisted operators.
Absolutely spot on post! Get the Battle Bowler and Flak Jacket ready though Driver!
Dipper_Dave:
Yes but to do a good deed no one should ever know about it.
One expects a reward be it financial or praise from ones peers.
A truly selfless act has no witness…
I can’t agree with that. Just to offer one ‘example’ and there are many others - I would point to: the soldier who throws himself on a grenade ‘takes one for the chaps’ of which there have been a few… very selfless - very visible.
But as you say, tis another subject.
I expect people will use the retrospectives of this horrendous incident to argue for their raison d’etre.
It would seem likely that an ex post facto / legal reaction / legislation change… should be expected. It seems inevitable… I personally have no objection if technology can successfully prevent or reduce future occurrences.
I agree another time for the whole selfless act stuff.
Is there enough technology available to protect drivers from themselves though.
Yes automated platoon movements we have already on anything produced in the last 2 years.
But would it be too difficult for motorway CCTV to have an anomaly algorithm whereby it detected a stationary vehicle instantly and set off an alarm for the operator to hit a closed lane sign on the matrix signs.
Course the cost of this is anybodies guess but smart motorways need smart cameras.
Not sure if it would have helped here but then faced with this situation I’m not even sure how I would have reacted apart from a faint hope that my skill level was enough to avoid the carnage. But who knows hopefully I’ll never have to find out.
paul_r:
I am not willy waving or bragging but I keep reading the comments and comparison with train drivers.
I am an ex class 1 night trunker driving artics and wag and drag a-frames, moved on to joining the DVSA voluntary register of LGV Driving instructors in class 1 and now am driving trains.
The hardest job so far - train driving. Am I worth my wages? I believe so yes.
Great rhetoric.But backed up by exactly what facts ?.I’m hoping that you don’t tell trainee truck drivers not to worry about anything being stopped ahead on a motorway.Or at the side when turning etc etc and if they hit anything in those circumstances it will be the other road user’s fault for being on the road and it’s not the driver’s responsibility to actually steer the thing where it needs to go anyway. Oh wait that might just explain the plummeting driving standards we increasingly see every day. Yes train drivers over paid prima donas with truck driving viewed as a second class skill set when it’s actually the more skilled job.With truck drivers increasingly living down to the stereotype rather than having the required pride in the job they do.
Midnight Rambler:
It would be interesting to know the next destination of the AIM driver, had he missed his exit and was attempting to reverse back?
He couldn’t know the roads around there very well then - that junction is as good for MK as the next one. If he was aiming for Newport Pagnell itself though? He could still have U-turned at J13 in less than 10 minutes…
When it comes to “Cab Cameras” - I’ve seen the fedex cabs with the large blocks cemented to the center bottom of the windscreen, which are forward facing only. I’ve never seen a “driver facing” camera at Fedex. Mind you, the last time I did the Marston Gate/Leicester trailer swap was 2015…
Has anyone given any consideration to the notion that for Dave Wagstaff - this may be his very first incident upon what could well be his otherwise umblemished prior record?
If that turns out to be the case - then this incident truly could have involved any of us I would have thought… “Wrong place at the wrong time” argument applies.
Dipper_Dave:
Yes but to do a good deed no one should ever know about it.
One expects a reward be it financial or praise from ones peers.
A truly selfless act has no witness…
I can’t agree with that. Just to offer one ‘example’ and there are many others - I would point to: the soldier who throws himself on a grenade ‘takes one for the chaps’ of which there have been a few… very selfless - very visible.
But as you say, tis another subject.
I expect people will use the retrospectives of this horrendous incident to argue for their raison d’etre.
It would seem likely that an ex post facto / legal reaction / legislation change… should be expected. It seems inevitable… I personally have no objection if technology can successfully prevent or reduce future occurrences.
I agree another time for the whole selfless act stuff.
Is there enough technology available to protect drivers from themselves though.
Yes automated platoon movements we have already on anything produced in the last 2 years.
But would it be too difficult for motorway CCTV to have an anomaly algorithm whereby it detected a stationary vehicle instantly and set off an alarm for the operator to hit a closed lane sign on the matrix signs.
Course the cost of this is anybodies guess but smart motorways need smart cameras.
Not sure if it would have helped here but then faced with this situation I’m not even sure how I would have reacted apart from a faint hope that my skill level was enough to avoid the carnage. But who knows hopefully I’ll never have to find out.
As I’ve already stated, I’ve experienced personally the delays in activating the ‘smart’ features on motorways.
I find it incredulous that for twelve minutes, no-one phoned in to report an hgv blocking a lane. I have a bad feeling that it was reported, yet, as I experienced, nothing was done about it. Now THAT would be truly shameful.
Midnight Rambler:
Fed Ex may have seen the stationary AIM truck, that’s why he was in lane 2 but presumed the minibus was exiting up the slip road until he pulled in front of him at the last second
Or possibly saying along zb hell that’s stopped in lane 1 and the minibus in lane 1 is running up to it.Nothing I can do now except hope the minibus driver has the sense to have seen the situation and adjusts his approach to suit and waits until I’ve gone thr…bang.Oh zb no the zb stupid muppet.
Driver sobs in court as he’s accused of killing eight in M1 crash after ‘stopping in slow lane for 12mins’ - The Sun apple.news/AZY-ZhIVrScW-seChyidQBg
