M1 crash-court update

dieseldog999:
hes going to be the scapegoat by the looks of the media attention.time served ect.if he broke down and his beancounter co told him to not wander about in a live lane leading to him sitting there anyway…whs fault would it have been then…the bus should have stopped,or avoided him in plenty of time,but watch how quietly the race card will come into play if it starts going in that direction.

‘If’ and it’s a very big ‘if’ there was any suggestion of the race card being played.The odds are that it’s the Fed Ex driver who’s being set up as a scapegoat.To possibly divert attention from the possibility of an Indian driver doing something just as stupid as the Polish driver ahead of him.The AIM driver’s defence at least obviously having already chosen to play that card to whatever extent even at the bail request stage.

On that note how difficult can it be to just dispel any erroneous conceptions in that regard by making it clear exactly which lane/s that the Fed Ex truck and the mini bus were in before and at the point of impact.In just the same way that it seems to have had no problem in clearly publicising that the AIM driver was allegedly asleep for 12 minutes in lane 1.

bloodoodle:
There’s more information on the road positions from the coroner here
miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/inqu … -1-8135360

The coroner’s officer Frederick Howe said an articulated lorry was stationary in lane one, the minibus slowed and stopped and a second lorry pushed into the rear of the minibus. Four people were taken to hospital and the remaining eight in the minibus died.

Read more at: miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/inqu … -1-8135360

It makes it easier to see why the FedEx driver was charged.

I can’t say I’m surprised to hear the minibus driver did something incredibly stupid. I think he’d be facing charges if still alive. Looking bad for the Fedex driver in this case. Mr AIM has the dui and no licence to deal with but might get his other charges reduced at some point. So we have three idiots, all of whom would profess to be professional drivers, with the road to themselves pretty much and look how it ends up. :unamused:

So what driver was drunk was it the minibus driver?

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Wish i was as good a driver as some of the armchair experts here, presumably anyone seeing an artic stopped in lane 1 beside a hard shoulder and slip road at 3.15 in the bloody morning would guess the bod at the wheel was having a kip to fend off some of the booze and just gone round him on the limiter eh?

If Mr Joseph, the late driver of the minibus had indeed stopped momentarily behind the lorry, that would have been entirely understandable if in the cold light of dawn not a good decision as it would appear another lorry took the bus out (but none of us at this point know exactly what happened yet), maybe expert and unfallable lorry drivers well represented here would have guessed some half wit was just grabbing a swift forty winks as one does :unamused: , but anyone remotely normal like Mr Joseph quite likely wouldn’t have gone steaming past the lorry on the limiter because they might well assume some more urgent reason for the vehicle being stopped beside the hard shoulder and slip road.

but anyone remotely normal like Mr Joseph quite likely wouldn’t have gone steaming past the lorry on the limiter because they might well assume some more urgent reason for the vehicle being stopped beside the hard shoulder and slip road.

Spot on, the actual incident took seconds (at best) to unfold, as those of us involved in collisions well know. The lads who came upon the AIM lorry in the live lane, were left with little or no chance to react. It’s safe to say none of this would have happened if the AIM driver was doing what he was being paid for, which was driving the wagon responsibly, and safely, and not parking it up in a live motorway lane at 03.15, drunk.

MickM

dieseldog999:

MTM12:
Any bloke that is so out of it (for whatever poxy reason) he stops his wagon in the live lane of the M1 in the dark so people run into the back of him doesn’t give flying [zb] about anyone, let alone himself, why would he worry about informing DVLA of any new residence? The bloke is a muppet, no excuses, no ifs, no buts, and I hope they disqualify him from driving any sort of vehicle (not that he will take any notice), over here for life, along with a long prison sentence! Bellend!

MickM

all the rajpots that commit suicide dont really care about anyone else other than themselves…the dude would just be in a bad place mentally,best he stays where he is and gets out sooner.hes going to be the scapegoat by the looks of the media attention.time served ect.if he broke down and his beancounter co told him to not wander about in a live lane leading to him sitting there anyway…whs fault would it have been then…the bus should have stopped,or avoided him in plenty of time,but watch how quietly the race card will come into play if it starts going in that direction.

DD why are you defending the AIM drivers actions?

There is absolutely no defence for him being in lane 1 stopped with no warning lights on or calling police for assistance or even attempting to alert the traffic to the danger for 12 mins.

It does not matter how he came to be stopped in lane 1 in this case because we know he was, we know he was over the limit, we know he had only his tail lights on. We also now know he had his licence revoked. And we know the rest of the details about his circumstances up to this event.

I can feel some empathy for the fact he was clearly going through a bad time. But lots of people go through bad times and lose everything and yet still manage to get on a cope with life.

The facts are he was stopped, he was over the limit, he should not have been driving that vehicle, his actions along with the fed ex drivers actions by all accounts caused the deaths of 8 people.

As for the minibus driver again it depends on why and how long he was stopped behind the truck, as had he been alive one would assume he would also likely be facing charges.

the nodding donkey:
Lawyers…

Defending Maseriak Laban Leake said: ‘The only difference between this man and his co-defendant is his nationality - one man is on bail, one man isn’t. He has been residing in this country for eight years.’

The only difference■■? Apart from being over the limit (at three o’clock in the [zb] morning), being stationary in a live lane for over twelve minutes (presumably asleep), and having a revoked HGV licence.
But no, let’s play the race card…

What do you call 50 lawyers in the bottom of the sea?

and the fact that they consider him a flight risk,with what he’s facing he would do a runner

Juddian:
Wish i was as good a driver as some of the armchair experts here, presumably anyone seeing an artic stopped in lane 1 beside a hard shoulder and slip road at 3.15 in the bloody morning would guess the bod at the wheel was having a kip to fend off some of the booze and just gone round him on the limiter eh?

If Mr Joseph, the late driver of the minibus had indeed stopped momentarily behind the lorry, that would have been entirely understandable if in the cold light of dawn not a good decision as it would appear another lorry took the bus out (but none of us at this point know exactly what happened yet), maybe expert and unfallable lorry drivers well represented here would have guessed some half wit was just grabbing a swift forty winks as one does :unamused: , but anyone remotely normal like Mr Joseph quite likely wouldn’t have gone steaming past the lorry on the limiter because they might well assume some more urgent reason for the vehicle being stopped beside the hard shoulder and slip road.

Ironically it’s probably more basic road craft and survival skills than armchair expert to say that ideally no one would want to pass a truck or any vehicle stopped in lane 1 of a motorway for no apparent reason,at anything much more than a crawl and preferably do so in lane 3.

Or if choosing to stop behind it to establish what’s going on then use the hard shoulder. :bulb:

On that note yes the ‘remotely normal’,not armchair expert,reaction to finding something stopped ahead in lane 1 of a motorway for no reason would be an accident to be approached accordingly.

as none of us was there and didn’t witness it I can’t understand why the fed ex driver is charged with causing death by dangerous driving,from what I gathered in the paper today Ryszard masierak was stationary in the first lane,the mini bus came up behind him,saw him then swerved into the path of the fed ex driver,if that is the case why is dave wagstaff being charged for something that was out of his control,masierak was the cause of it all so the blame should be put firmly at his door irrelevant of what he was suffering,if a vehicle swerves in front of you at the last minute what chance do you have of stopping a 44 tonner straight away,i am assuming the fed ex driver was in the middle lane approaching the mini bus.

Washwipe:
I don’t know, I’ve a gut feeling that all three vehicles were in Lane 1.

According to our local news that is correct.

Pete.

I know it’s the sun paper but they said the mini bus swerved into the path of the fed ex lorry,so i’m assuming it was in the 2nd lane approaching,still the truth will come out in court,probably be around 6 months to a year before a court case.

truckman020:
i am assuming the fed ex driver was in the middle lane approaching the mini bus.

I think that may be the key to it. The other view is that AIM was stationary in Lane 1, Mr Minibus (confused by what he sees in front of him) comes to a halt and then, while starting a simple drive-around-the-stationary-truck manœuvre is taken roughly from behind by Mr FedEx who has failed to do anything at all other than keep ploughing along in Lane 1 on the limiter. Examination of vehicles, tyre marks and tachographs will fill in most of the details. Hell, there might even be some dashcam footage to confirm it all.

windrush:

Washwipe:
I don’t know, I’ve a gut feeling that all three vehicles were in Lane 1.

According to our local news that is correct.

Pete.

Remember in the pitch black from a reasonable distance it’s not blatantly obvious that a vehicle stopped in lane 1 is in fact not on the hard shoulder especially if there’s a slight curve in the motorway. But if I do see someone stopped in the dark it really focuses the mind until you pass by.

MTM12:
but anyone remotely normal like Mr Joseph quite likely wouldn’t have gone steaming past the lorry on the limiter because they might well assume some more urgent reason for the vehicle being stopped beside the hard shoulder and slip road.

Spot on, the actual incident took seconds (at best) to unfold, as those of us involved in collisions well know. The lads who came upon the AIM lorry in the live lane, were left with little or no chance to react. It’s safe to say none of this would have happened if the AIM driver was doing what he was being paid for, which was driving the wagon responsibly, and safely, and not parking it up in a live motorway lane at 03.15, drunk.

MickM

It’s not as simple as that.The AIM driver could just as easily have been incapacitated or involved in an accident causing the lane blockage and it’s up to approaching drivers behind to deal with that situation correctly in all cases.The law won’t accept any excuse of that approach having left no time to react and deal with the stoppage in the live lane correctly.The fact is the job takes more skill in the form of anticipation,observation and forward planning than that expected of a train driver.

Carryfast:

dieseldog999:

Carryfast:

Washwipe:
While the point regarding the selective ‘secrecy’ being applied in the case so far is more about the question as to what actually brought the Fed Ex truck into collision with the mini bus and stopped AIM truck.Than the fact that the AIM truck was stopped for whatever reason.On that note it’s obviously been no problem for the prosecution to enthusiastically make all the alleged ‘issues’ regarding the AIM truck clear.So why the big problem and secrecy in doing the same regarding the Fed Ex truck and where it was relative to the mini bus and AIM truck immediately before the collision. ?.

Not sure if it would be secrecy but as the fed ex driver hasn’t entered a pleas prehaps letting to much info about what happened road position any dash cam evidence or such like in to the public domain it could be argued would be prejudice against any defence in his cas.

Carryfast:

MTM12:
but anyone remotely normal like Mr Joseph quite likely wouldn’t have gone steaming past the lorry on the limiter because they might well assume some more urgent reason for the vehicle being stopped beside the hard shoulder and slip road.

Spot on, the actual incident took seconds (at best) to unfold, as those of us involved in collisions well know. The lads who came upon the AIM lorry in the live lane, were left with little or no chance to react. It’s safe to say none of this would have happened if the AIM driver was doing what he was being paid for, which was driving the wagon responsibly, and safely, and not parking it up in a live motorway lane at 03.15, drunk.

MickM

It’s not as simple as that.The AIM driver could just as easily have been incapacitated or involved in an accident causing the lane blockage and it’s up to approaching drivers behind to deal with that situation correctly in all cases.The law won’t accept any excuse of that approach having left no time to react and deal with the stoppage in the live lane correctly.The fact is the job takes more skill in the form of anticipation,observation and forward planning than that expected of a train driver.

Holy crap, the legend that is carry fast.

I’ve heard plenty about you on here but I have to say +1 I’m agreeing with what you have said there spot on.

windrush:

Washwipe:
I don’t know, I’ve a gut feeling that all three vehicles were in Lane 1.

According to our local news that is correct.

Pete.

Sad to have that confirmed, had hoped that Fed Ex was in Lane 2 and the bus was trapped in Lane 1 and tried to get to Lane 2 and was clipped by Fed Ex in Lane 2 then all hell, broke loose.

Putting to one side whatever reason why the AIM vehicle in Lane 1, parked and over the limit with no valid licence. The Fed Ex driver has had a lapse in concentration, we’ve all done it, but this time the consequences were horrendous, he has not set out to do this it’s just happened, he’s normal stand up guy like most of us, but with this in mind you can see why there is a shortage of good drivers, who really for the wages wants all the pressure and risks for so little payment when they can stack shelves at Aldi for a lot more money where a lapse in concentration damages a can of beans.

bald bloke:
Remember in the pitch black from a reasonable distance it’s not blatantly obvious that a vehicle stopped in lane 1 is in fact not on the hard shoulder especially if there’s a slight curve in the motorway. But if I do see someone stopped in the dark it really focuses the mind until you pass by.

Reacting correctly to obstructions ahead in good time isn’t optional in the eyes of the law.From which point the choice is slow down,stop and/or plan a lane change/overtake.

Bearing in mind the importance of also using main beam headlights and the fact that there might not be any lights on the obstruction at all.It could at worse be an unlit car ahead on its roof with the occupants trapped inside it or at best something broken down on the hard shoulder with disabled electrics. :bulb:

all the rajpots that commit suicide dont really care about anyone else other than themselves…the dude would just be in a bad place mentally,best he stays where he is and gets out sooner.hes going to be the scapegoat by the looks of the media attention.time served ect.if he broke down and his beancounter co told him to not wander about in a live lane leading to him sitting there anyway…whs fault would it have been then…the bus should have stopped,or avoided him in plenty of time,but watch how quietly the race card will come into play if it starts going in that direction.
/quote]DD why are you defending the AIM drivers actions?

There is absolutely no defence for him being in lane 1 stopped with no warning lights on or calling police for assistance or even attempting to alert the traffic to the danger for 12 mins.

It does not matter how he came to be stopped in lane 1 in this case because we know he was, we know he was over the limit, we know he had only his tail lights on. We also now know he had his licence revoked. And we know the rest of the details about his circumstances up to this event.

I can feel some empathy for the fact he was clearly going through a bad time. But lots of people go through bad times and lose everything and yet still manage to get on a cope with life.

The facts are he was stopped, he was over the limit, he should not have been driving that vehicle, his actions along with the fed ex drivers actions by all accounts caused the deaths of 8 people.

As for the minibus driver again it depends on why and how long he was stopped behind the truck, as had he been alive one would assume he would also likely be facing charges.
[/quote]
im not defending him,just observing the usual flow of blame whereas i prefer the." never judge someone till you have walked a mile in their shoes"
the dudes head was apparantly well messed up.despair,depression,most likely on some form of medication with possibly the doc dobbing him in to vosa,and most likely just getting through his miserable existance day by day.
he might have been doing a michael douglas from falling down and whilst deciding when to step out and kill himself, nodded off,but irrespective of why he was stopped and whether he was legal or otherwise,then its still the job of drivers coming from behind to not run into stationary traffic.
im quite sure if some rich git was facing the same scenario with a proper well paid for lawyer would be able to wriggle off with a much less penalty than this dude with a court appointed defence.drivings a terrible job for not being able to forget your worries as your only sitting steering the thing nowadays.like prisoners,theres not much to istract you and problems tend to multiply when your sitting moping about it with nothing to distract you.
he was over the limit,but not by as much to be bladdered.so theres drunk in charge.no biggy.he stopped in a live lane,theres another charge.if nobody smacked him,it also wouldnt be a biggy.licence revoked,he would have next to no penalty for being able to prove he was never informed due to dossing in his car last 6 month…no biggy.the biggy is the fact 2 vehicles collided into him with the ensuing carnage and media circus,so they need to show that someones getting reamed.
me and my mate got blocked a few years ago in trafford parktotally blind staggering manky drunk.we found the 2 trucks,i fell asleep,he decided it would be a good idea to head up the road though he has no recollection of doing so,all he remembers is a cop leaning over him in his bunk,asking if he was ok,and asking him if it wasnt too noisey for him if he was trying to get a nights kip…at that point,then got him out the truck and informed him he was parked up in the middle lane of the M 61just next to rivington services.he got £450 fine and banned for 1 year.no doubt it would have been worse if someone had ran into the back of him,but they didnt.

This whole TNUK CSI thing is starting to get boring.

Can we at least filter out those who got the Bath tipper crash wrong?