MTM12: but anyone remotely normal like Mr Joseph quite likely wouldn’t have gone steaming past the lorry on the limiter because they might well assume some more urgent reason for the vehicle being stopped beside the hard shoulder and slip road.
Spot on, the actual incident took seconds (at best) to unfold, as those of us involved in collisions well know. The lads who came upon the AIM lorry in the live lane, were left with little or no chance to react. It’s safe to say none of this would have happened if the AIM driver was doing what he was being paid for, which was driving the wagon responsibly, and safely, and not parking it up in a live motorway lane at 03.15, drunk.
MickM
It’s not as simple as that.The AIM driver could just as easily have been incapacitated or involved in an accident causing the lane blockage and it’s up to approaching drivers behind to deal with that situation correctly in all cases.The law won’t accept any excuse of that approach having left no time to react and deal with the stoppage in the live lane correctly.The fact is the job takes more skill in the form of anticipation,observation and forward planning than that expected of a train driver.
I agree with you to a point, a little simplistic, but just a view about what possibly went on, with no legal value.
I don’t agree with you about the law not excusing the mini bus or Fed Ex drivers actions though.
All collisions are judged on a case by case basis and within the bounds of foreseeable events. A lorry parked up on the live lane of a motorway with a drunk in charge would surely not fall within the bounds of a foreseeable event would it? I’m pretty sure it would provide some defence for the drivers who hit it, though may not free them from all responsibility.
if you plough into someone who has stopped on a live motorway lane ,then what difference to your blame does it make whatever reason it is stopped for? if the drivers blocked,drugged out of his ■■■■,mental,dead or broken down,he is stopped just the same.12 mins traffic went past him without mishap,so if you run up his jacksie,then surely its your own fault for not looking closer and avoiding it same as everyone else.standing traffic on a uk motorway is a forseeable event considering the amount of gridlock nowadays.
So more news has now come to light. Flipski Flop was taking a break in lane 1 with no hazards on for 12 mins. The minibus driver then stops behind him. Fedex then slams into the back of the minibus and crushes it against the AIM truck.
You have to wonder, why did the minibus driver stop behind the stopped vehicle. Must’ve been obvious there was no queue ahead if he were looking where he was going. The motorway would’ve been dead at that time and even if he was prevented from accessing lane 2 there was always the hard shoulder.
If I have to emergency stop on a motorway the first thing I do is look behind. Had he done the same he might have noticed what was about to happen behind him.
This a very unusual crash caused by errors from every driver involved.
Terry T:
So more news has now come to light. Flipski Flop was taking a break in lane 1 with no hazards on for 12 mins. The minibus driver then stops behind him. Fedex then slams into the back of the minibus and crushes it against the AIM truck.
You have to wonder, why did the minibus driver stop behind the stopped vehicle. Must’ve been obvious there was no queue ahead if he were looking where he was going. The motorway would’ve been dead at that time and even if he was prevented from accessing lane 2 there was always the hard shoulder.
If I have to emergency stop on a motorway the first thing I do is look behind. Had he done the same he might have noticed what was about to happen behind him.
This a very unusual crash caused by errors from every driver involved.
Absolutely correct analysis of the info we have.
All 3 drivers have blame in this crash it seems. However one of them is dead so no blame will be apportioned to him for his bad decisions.
all of us can come up with different stories[as I have] as to what happened,quoting the law,defending/not defending the drivers,end of the day the police,accident investigators are still trying no doubt to get to the bottom of it,as I stated in an earlier post the truth will eventually come out next year sometime,all we can do is wait and see,i myself don’t normally take an interest in accidents being debated on here,but 8 people dead is something else,normally unheard of in an accident,be interesting to see what the truth will be,lets face it the fed ex driver may be charged but he could still walk away at the end of the trial.
Terry T:
So more news has now come to light. Flipski Flop was taking a break in lane 1 with no hazards on for 12 mins. The minibus driver then stops behind him. Fedex then slams into the back of the minibus and crushes it against the AIM truck.
You have to wonder, why did the minibus driver stop behind the stopped vehicle. Must’ve been obvious there was no queue ahead if he were looking where he was going. The motorway would’ve been dead at that time and even if he was prevented from accessing lane 2 there was always the hard shoulder.
If I have to emergency stop on a motorway the first thing I do is look behind. Had he done the same he might have noticed what was about to happen behind him.
This a very unusual crash caused by errors from every driver involved.
so mr fed ex was in the first lane,oh well, he will be for the high jump then.
Dork Lard:
This whole TNUK CSI thing is starting to get boring.
Can we at least filter out those who got the Bath tipper crash wrong?
be fair…were now up to 32 pages on 2 related topics here and rising as we type. its all complete and utter pish as nobody knows anything,we all just speculate and waffle,then start bickering like pair of starlings fighting over a chip.good craic for all concerned.
Terry T:
If I have to emergency stop on a motorway the first thing I do is look behind. Had he done the same he might have noticed what was about to happen behind him.
The mini bus driver may have just been in the process of doing this…
Something that’s been bothering me after this is what’s happened to the convention of moving one lane over to pass a stranded vehicle?
Whenever I spot someone on the hard shoulder, I’m straight in the mirrors and make a move into lane 2. I’m sure I used to see lorries do this as a matter of course when I was a youngster - it was so noticeable that I copied it when I first learned to drive a car - but now it seems to have fallen out of fashion. It’s now completely normal to see 2 or 3 lorries in front / behind you shave past some poor breakdown worker on his knees trying to change a tyre.
My mind is turning to the possibility that the minibus had a low limiter, say 58mph and had not long since passed FedEx. FedEx was just following the tail lights of the minibus and not enough of a gap had drawn out before the minibus pulled his emergency stop.
If the minibus was a long way away from FedEx, he’d managed to stop, not use his hazards and also take his foot off the brake too.
The coroner’s officer Frederick Howe said an articulated lorry was stationary in lane one, the minibus slowed and stopped and a second lorry pushed into the rear of the minibus. Four people were taken to hospital and the remaining eight in the minibus died.
I posted this photograph nearly three weeks ago on the other thread. The skid marks show the twin wheels of the drive wheels of the FedEX unit. The offside marks are virtually continuous but the nearside ones are more random. The offside skid marks are only just into lane two suggesting that FedEx was in lane one following the minibus and when the minibus stopped FedEx didn’t. He then hit the minibus pushing it into the rear of AIM. For twelve minutes traffic went past the AIM lorry without hitting it. Mr Joseph not only saw it but stopped yet Wagstaff saw neither. It’s no surprise that he has been charged.
Why Joseph stopped his minibus in a live lane with passengers on is beyond me. You are trained that the safety of your passengers is paramount, even to the point where it’s included in a specific module on the PSV version of the dCPC. Only the four survivors will be able to shine some light on what he was thinking.
As for Masierak it will be interesting to hear why he stopped in a live lane on a motorway, never mind for twelve minutes. With a reading of 55mg he was certainly over the limit but, as a man with a drink problem, it doesn’t suggest he was paraletic, as some have marked him down. When his licence was revoked and for what reason will reveal more about his attitude and situation.
The authorities also have questions to answer. It is inconcievable, even in the early hours, that not one phone call was received from a vehicle who passed the stricken AIM lorry. Maybe they didn’t have time to get someone to the scene, or there was no-one available, but why wasn’t the lane Red X’d? If no-one did phone in then it speaks volumes about modern society!
A sad state of affairs all round in which eight people are dead, four seriously injured, three drivers culpable to a greater or lesser degree, and two drivers with a lot of questions to answer.
The coroner’s officer Frederick Howe said an articulated lorry was stationary in lane one, the minibus slowed and stopped and a second lorry pushed into the rear of the minibus. Four people were taken to hospital and the remaining eight in the minibus died.
I posted this photograph nearly three weeks ago on the other thread. The skid marks show the twin wheels of the drive wheels of the FedEX unit. The offside marks are virtually continuous but the nearside ones are more random. The offside skid marks are only just into lane two suggesting that FedEx was in lane one following the minibus and when the minibus stopped FedEx didn’t. He then hit the minibus pushing it into the rear of AIM. For twelve minutes traffic went past the AIM lorry without hitting it. Mr Joseph not only saw it but stopped yet Wagstaff saw neither. It’s no surprise that he has been charged.
Why Joseph stopped his minibus in a live lane with passengers on is beyond me. You are trained that the safety of your passengers is paramount, even to the point where it’s included in a specific module on the PSV version of the dCPC. Only the four survivors will be able to shine some light on what he was thinking.
As for Masierak it will be interesting to hear why he stopped in a live lane on a motorway, never mind for twelve minutes. With a reading of 55mg he was certainly over the limit but, as a man with a drink problem, it doesn’t suggest he was paraletic, as some have marked him down. When his licence was revoked and for what reason will reveal more about his attitude and situation.
The authorities also have questions to answer. It is inconcievable, even in the early hours, that not one phone call was received from a vehicle who passed the stricken AIM lorry. Maybe they didn’t have time to get someone to the scene, or there was no-one available, but why wasn’t the lane Red X’d? If no-one did phone in then it speaks volumes about modern society!
A sad state of affairs all round in which eight people are dead, four seriously injured, three drivers culpable to a greater or lesser degree, and two drivers with a lot of questions to answer.
Stanley Knife:
The authorities also have questions to answer. It is inconcievable, even in the early hours, that not one phone call was received from a vehicle who passed the stricken AIM lorry. Maybe they didn’t have time to get someone to the scene, or there was no-one available, but why wasn’t the lane Red X’d? If no-one did phone in then it speaks volumes about modern society!
I daresay the main reason that lane wasn’t Red X’d was because no such facility exists on that stretch of the M1. I don’t think it has been stated anywhere whether the information boards were used to convey a “stranded vehicle” or “Obstruction” message or even a simple 50mph limit.
Stanley Knife:
The authorities also have questions to answer. It is inconcievable, even in the early hours, that not one phone call was received from a vehicle who passed the stricken AIM lorry. Maybe they didn’t have time to get someone to the scene, or there was no-one available, but why wasn’t the lane Red X’d? If no-one did phone in then it speaks volumes about modern society!
I daresay the main reason that lane wasn’t Red X’d was because no such facility exists on that stretch of the M1. I don’t think it has been stated anywhere whether the information boards were used to convey a “stranded vehicle” or “Obstruction” message or even a simple 50mph limit.
Terry T:
So more news has now come to light. Flipski Flop was taking a break in lane 1 with no hazards on for 12 mins. The minibus driver then stops behind him. Fedex then slams into the back of the minibus and crushes it against the AIM truck.
You have to wonder, why did the minibus driver stop behind the stopped vehicle. Must’ve been obvious there was no queue ahead if he were looking where he was going. The motorway would’ve been dead at that time and even if he was prevented from accessing lane 2 there was always the hard shoulder.
If I have to emergency stop on a motorway the first thing I do is look behind. Had he done the same he might have noticed what was about to happen behind him.
This a very unusual crash caused by errors from every driver involved.
Absolutely correct analysis of the info we have.
All 3 drivers have blame in this crash it seems. However one of them is dead so no blame will be apportioned to him for his bad decisions.
Why do you have to wonder why the minibus stopped in a live lane?
He was probably concentrating on not going into the back of the stationary truck.
He probably did a good job considering the circumstances.
Why are some intent on trying to put others to blame?
Terry T:
So more news has now come to light. Flipski Flop was taking a break in lane 1 with no hazards on for 12 mins. The minibus driver then stops behind him. Fedex then slams into the back of the minibus and crushes it against the AIM truck.
You have to wonder, why did the minibus driver stop behind the stopped vehicle. Must’ve been obvious there was no queue ahead if he were looking where he was going. The motorway would’ve been dead at that time and even if he was prevented from accessing lane 2 there was always the hard shoulder.
If I have to emergency stop on a motorway the first thing I do is look behind. Had he done the same he might have noticed what was about to happen behind him.
This a very unusual crash caused by errors from every driver involved.
Your last sentence may be totally wrong.
How can you be so sure?
Dr Damon:
He probably did a good job considering the circumstances?
Woah there Neddy, back the bus up! If you consider coming to a standstill on an empty motorway behind a stationary vehicle as opposed to merely moving across a lane to being a good job then that speaks volumes about you and your abilities!
Tell me, do you often find yourself stuck behind tractors on dual carriageways?
Dr Damon:
He probably did a good job considering the circumstances?
Woah there Neddy, back the bus up! If you consider coming to a standstill on an empty motorway behind a stationary vehicle as opposed to merely moving across a lane to being a good job then that speaks volumes about you and your abilities!
Tell me, do you often find yourself stuck behind tractors on dual carriageways?
All I am saying is he managed to stop.
He may not have reacted correctly but under the circumstances he did better than others.
The last thing you expect is a stationary truck in lane 1 at that time.
Dr Damon:
He probably did a good job considering the circumstances?
Woah there Neddy, back the bus up! If you consider coming to a standstill on an empty motorway behind a stationary vehicle as opposed to merely moving across a lane to being a good job then that speaks volumes about you and your abilities!
Tell me, do you often find yourself stuck behind tractors on dual carriageways?
All I am saying is he managed to stop.
He may not have reacted correctly but under the circumstances he did better than others.
The last thing you expect is a stationary truck in lane 1 at that time.
In the circumstances he didn’t do any better than the FedEx driver. He came to a stop in a minibus directly behind the stationary truck, stopping a freighted artic or taking evasive action takes a lot more time and room than a minibus. If he’d of noticed it sooner and driven around it instead of stopping behind it then that would probably of alerted the FedEx to a problem ahead and disaster averted. The minibus driver is just as much to blame as the FedEx if not more as he had a clear view of the road ahead. Depending on the distance between them the minibus could of been blocking the taillights of the AIM truck leaving only the top markers visible
