caledoniandream:
Just playing devils advocate; if the driver in vehicle one was “stopped” in lane one for 12 minutes, and asleep.
Was he at that point in “charge” of the vehicle.
Or is this a factor of parking a vehicle in the incorrect location and becomes this a parking offence?
Not defending anybody, but a solicitor could make something different of it.
The charge of the 3rd vehicle could be "hitting a stationary obstacle "
Just wonder
Yes, if you have the keys, you are deemed ‘in charge of ’ the vehicle. For example, if you have drunk alcohol, and decide to sleep in your car ( or truck or campervan… ) , but are in possession of the keys, you are deemed to be ’ in charge of’, and can be prosecuted just as if you where driving. This has happened to car drivers in pub carparks.
True in case of a car, but in a truck it’s slightly different.
Otherwise it would be a good earner for the police to charge at least quite a few drivers who have a pint or two with their meal.
I never been charged, even when I was speaking to the police when weekended op north while having a few to many heavies.
They even asked me to move the truck the next morning when I was sobered up again.
I just wonder what will come out of this case, what will the defence bring on the table, will the mini bus driver be charged, as he was stopped behind the vehicle etc etc
No, there are no vehicle class exemptions in the law on ‘being in charge of a vehicle’ whilst unfit or over the prescribed limit. But unlike the offence of ‘driving whilst’ being unfit or over the prescribed limit, which is absolute and sees you arrested on the spot, ‘being in charge’ has grey areas, and leaves a certain room for an officers discretion, and intent comes into play.
Driving is an absolute act, and the intent of the drivers is indisputable.
But being in charge is open to interpretation. You can be drinking at home, with your car parked outside. To the letter of the law, you are ‘in charge whilst over the limit’, but it would be ludicrous to prosecute people for it. In the case of drinking whilst parked in a truck or campervan, it is down to intent. If you are parked for an 11 hour break, and have a drink or two, no police man will risk being laughed out of court for prosecuting you. Likewise in a campervan parked up for the night, possibly with a parking paid ticket till the next day displayed. On the other hand, if you are ■■■■■■■ reeking if alcohol, and likely to move on before you could reasonably be expected to have sobered up, you can, and people have been, be prosecuted for ‘being in charge’…
dieseldog999:
i wonder what the flipflop would face if he had broken down in lane 1. the reason for being in lane 1 is irrelevant as to why the bus got creamed as it wasnt him that hit the bus,though no doubt he is going to get crucified with the media looking for a victim. the white driver will hopefully just have been charged to appease the race card holders till plod get their instructions from the powers that be.same as the glesgae binny.
Complete [zb] as usual, up to your usual standard.
care to elabourate old bean? or is it easier just to be another armchair viking and type waffle?
nobody has a clue about this and even once it goes to court,there will be too many factors to consider for just the plain truth and blame to be issued.
for whatever reason that the truck was stationary,then it was stationary…your meant to drive within your stopping distances…id assume there were plenty others who drove round the flipflop in the previous 12 mins…the prosecutor has a name of similar ilk to the dude driving the bus…theyve already played the race card re bail for the flipflop…and nothing is said about the white guy driving the other truck other than he gets charged with some blanket charges…your move i believe
The fact the driver was operating a motorised vehicle with out the correct catergory of licence to drive, ie a ban … he was illegally on the road. There is no court in the land who can sweep that under the carpet…
I would think that his company would be getting an invite from the TC also.
He knowingly drove that vehicle illegally and innocent lives were lost.
True in case of a car, but in a truck it’s slightly different.
Otherwise it would be a good earner for the police to charge at least quite a few drivers who have a pint or two with their meal.
I never been charged, even when I was speaking to the police when weekended op north while having a few to many heavies.
They even asked me to move the truck the next morning when I was sobered up again.
I just wonder what will come out of this case, what will the defence bring on the table, will the mini bus driver be charged, as he was stopped behind the vehicle etc etc
[/quote]
No, there are no vehicle class exemptions in the law on ‘being in charge of a vehicle’ whilst unfit or over the prescribed limit. But unlike the offence of ‘driving whilst’ being unfit or over the prescribed limit, which is absolute and sees you arrested on the spot, ‘being in charge’ has grey areas, and leaves a certain room for an officers discretion, and intent comes into play.
Driving is an absolute act, and the intent of the drivers is indisputable.
But being in charge is open to interpretation. You can be drinking at home, with your car parked outside. To the letter of the law, you are ‘in charge whilst over the limit’, but it would be ludicrous to prosecute people for it. In the case of drinking whilst parked in a truck or campervan, it is down to intent. If you are parked for an 11 hour break, and have a drink or two, no police man will risk being laughed out of court for prosecuting you. Likewise in a campervan parked up for the night, possibly with a parking paid ticket till the next day displayed. On the other hand, if you are ■■■■■■■ reeking if alcohol, and likely to move on before you could reasonably be expected to have sobered up, you can, and people have been, be prosecuted for ‘being in charge’…
[/quote]
+1
its always down to plods discretion. you have the keys,you are in or close to your vehicle,you are over the limit,you are drunk in charge…no exceptions.its only down to the cop that notices if you get charged. you can be asleep in your bed and the truck next to you goes on fire,or the diddycoys are robbing you,at that point you can see fit to drive away.drunk in charge.same for campers.anytime i go in my van and park up,then the keys are hidden.if the flipflop had a football players funding,he wouldnt be getting half of whats coming to him.
discoman:
The fact the driver was operating a motorised vehicle with out the correct catergory of licence to drive, ie a ban … he was illegally on the road. There is no court in the land who can sweep that under the carpet…
I would think that his company would be getting an invite from the TC also.
He knowingly drove that vehicle illegally and innocent lives were lost.
How can you say he did it knowingly? His vocational licence had been revoked. Do you know why it was revoked? As the usual procedure for revocation involves writing to him (and he was moving from address to address, even living at some stage in his car according to some reports) how do you know he was even aware that his licence had indeed been revoked?
discoman:
The fact the driver was operating a motorised vehicle with out the correct catergory of licence to drive, ie a ban … he was illegally on the road. There is no court in the land who can sweep that under the carpet…
I would think that his company would be getting an invite from the TC also.
He knowingly drove that vehicle illegally and innocent lives were lost.
How can you say he did it knowingly? His vocational licence had been revoked. Do you know why it was revoked? As the usual procedure for revocation involves writing to him (and he was moving from address to address, even living at some stage in his car according to some reports) how do you know he was even aware that his licence had indeed been revoked?
And again, it depends on how long ago his licence was revoked and how recently AIM checked it. AIM may come out of it clean.
Quinny:
One assumes his employer, if he actually worked for them and not an agency, will be done for corporate manslaughter for allowing him to drive unlicenced.
Ken.
Most of us surely have our licences checked at periodic intervals like every 3 months or so. IF this guy’s licence had been revoked between such licence checks, and he’d omitted to tell his employer regardless of them being full time or agency - then is it really the employer’s fault in any way?
discoman:
The fact the driver was operating a motorised vehicle with out the correct catergory of licence to drive, ie a ban … he was illegally on the road. There is no court in the land who can sweep that under the carpet…
I would think that his company would be getting an invite from the TC also.
He knowingly drove that vehicle illegally and innocent lives were lost.
How can you say he did it knowingly? His vocational licence had been revoked. Do you know why it was revoked? As the usual procedure for revocation involves writing to him (and he was moving from address to address, even living at some stage in his car according to some reports) how do you know he was even aware that his licence had indeed been revoked?
Well, I know if my licence is valid, I know it hasn’t been revoked. When I change address my licence is changed etc. maybe he needed to understand he was required to inform a change of address. Let’s not forget it’s a possible 1000£ for failing to inform the DVLA of the change of address. Another point being, he had no justifiable cause to be in control of the vehicle. He was under the influence, I blame the government. For allowing an alcohol limit. It should be zero.
Own Account Driver:
As mentioned, depends on the circumstances, it is not reasonable to expect operators to check licences prior to every drive.
Reading the press articles, it would appear this particular licence was revoked in 2014 or earlier (It was revoked by VOSA, but they became DVSA in that year). So, either he was a new (to them) driver and they didn’t check, or he had driven for them before but they hadn’t checked his licence in three years…
Be interesting to see how much of that particular mud sticks in this case.
Surely, a check would have been done on resuming driving (if licence had been suspended for a while, but not indefinitely) How quickly does say, a 12-points on licence ban “decay off” the licence so that one can drive again?
Other “errors” could be put down to lack of sleep and a state of inebriation - like parking in a live lane, missing a junction that he might have actually meant to turn off at, and switching everything off at the same time as flipping his digi over to rest… If he even got around to doing that of course. He might have pulled up for a puke for all we know.
Winseer:
Surely, a check would have been done on resuming driving (if licence had been suspended for a while, but not indefinitely) How quickly does say, a 12-points on licence ban “decay off” the licence so that one can drive again?
Other “errors” could be put down to lack of sleep and a state of inebriation - like parking in a live lane, missing a junction that he might have actually meant to turn off at, and switching everything off at the same time as flipping his digi over to rest… If he even got around to doing that of course. He might have pulled up for a puke for all we know.
No mention of a ban or points that I can see - They have said that his HGV licence had been revoked (not suspended) by VOSA/DVSA. Driving bans (i.e. disqualification, whether for a serious offence or on “totting up”) can only be imposed by a court. Revocation is a one-way procedure, and you can only get your licence back when you have taken the necessary steps to e.g. address a mediriving testcal issue.
Do disbursements get sent out by the Medical Admin to make sure DVLA are kept abreast of what’s happened?
…Surely it’s not left to the honesty of “revoked” driver to keep everyone posted?
Would you automatically get a licence revoked for “being found by a doctor to be an alcoholic” for example?
…Or “type one diabetic”?
I’m thinking if this guy was sleeping in his car when not at work, then did he just lose his LGV entitlement or his entire licence, but disregarded it because it would have had him sleeping on park benches?
A comfy bunk would have been a serious step upmarket compared to that of course. No money to do it safely at a MSA though. I wonder how much “Not being able to pull up and park properly” will factor into this case?
If one future life is saved and/or numerous lives of other drivers made better, then perhaps some good can come out of this otherwise 100% tragedy.
discoman:
Well, I know if my licence is valid, I know it hasn’t been revoked. When I change address my licence is changed etc. maybe he needed to understand he was required to inform a change of address. Let’s not forget it’s a possible 1000£ for failing to inform the DVLA of the change of address.
OK - how would you go about keeping DVLA informed of your change of address if you’ve already had to move on three times due to dossing down with friends etc and you are now reduced to kipping in your car while you sort out your next move? Do you send your licence off to DVLA on the day you move in? Then you move on a few days later while DVLA are still doing their stuff. Then what? How does your new licence catch up with you? Rinse and repeat for each change of address.
In these circumstances, how do you know your licence hasn’t been been revoked (or is about to be revoked unless you respond to their letters within 28 days, and these letters could have been sent to any one of these temporary addresses)? This would appear to be the situation this driver was in.
We haven’t been told why his HGV licence was revoked, but I’d guess it came about as a result of consulting a doctor.
Winseer:
I’m thinking if this guy was sleeping in his car when not at work, then did he just lose his LGV entitlement or his entire licence, but disregarded it because it would have had him sleeping on park benches?
It was said in court that it was VOSA/DVSA who revoked his licence. That suggests to me it was only his LGV licence that was affected (otherwise the revocation would have come from DVLA themselves).
As I understand it, doctors are duty bound to inform DVLA if they know a patient continues to drive despite being advised not to. But we don’t know if it was a medical issue in this case.
discoman:
Well, I know if my licence is valid, I know it hasn’t been revoked. When I change address my licence is changed etc. maybe he needed to understand he was required to inform a change of address. Let’s not forget it’s a possible 1000£ for failing to inform the DVLA of the change of address.
OK - how would you go about keeping DVLA informed of your change of address if you’ve already had to move on three times due to dossing down with friends etc and you are now reduced to kipping in your car while you sort out your next move? Do you send your licence off to DVLA on the day you move in? Then you move on a few days later while DVLA are still doing their stuff. Then what? How does your new licence catch up with you? Rinse and repeat for each change of address.
In these circumstances, how do you know your licence hasn’t been been revoked (or is about to be revoked unless you respond to their letters within 28 days, and these letters could have been sent to any one of these temporary addresses)? This would appear to be the situation this driver was in.
We haven’t been told why his HGV licence was revoked, but I’d guess it came about as a result of consulting a doctor.
+1
good post bud…how would he know…he cant have arecieved much mail addressed to mr flipflop…in the back of a car somewhere within commuting distance of northants or wherever he was dossing down.
Any bloke that is so out of it (for whatever poxy reason) he stops his wagon in the live lane of the M1 in the dark so people run into the back of him doesn’t give flying ■■■■ about anyone, let alone himself, why would he worry about informing DVLA of any new residence? The bloke is a muppet, no excuses, no ifs, no buts, and I hope they disqualify him from driving any sort of vehicle (not that he will take any notice), over here for life, along with a long prison sentence! Bellend!
MTM12:
Any bloke that is so out of it (for whatever poxy reason) he stops his wagon in the live lane of the M1 in the dark so people run into the back of him doesn’t give flying [zb] about anyone, let alone himself, why would he worry about informing DVLA of any new residence? The bloke is a muppet, no excuses, no ifs, no buts, and I hope they disqualify him from driving any sort of vehicle (not that he will take any notice), over here for life, along with a long prison sentence! Bellend!
MickM
The legal concept that the guilt of an accused person cannot be presumed and that they must be assumed to be innocent until proven otherwise.
MTM12:
Any bloke that is so out of it (for whatever poxy reason) he stops his wagon in the live lane of the M1 in the dark so people run into the back of him doesn’t give flying [zb] about anyone, let alone himself, why would he worry about informing DVLA of any new residence? The bloke is a muppet, no excuses, no ifs, no buts, and I hope they disqualify him from driving any sort of vehicle (not that he will take any notice), over here for life, along with a long prison sentence! Bellend!
MickM
The legal concept that the guilt of an accused person cannot be presumed and that they must be assumed to be innocent until proven otherwise.
And it goes without saying that he will be accorded all the rights and protections that our judicial system allows. Poor sods and their families in the mini bus deserve justice too, I hope they get it.
MTM12:
Any bloke that is so out of it (for whatever poxy reason) he stops his wagon in the live lane of the M1 in the dark so people run into the back of him doesn’t give flying [zb] about anyone, let alone himself, why would he worry about informing DVLA of any new residence? The bloke is a muppet, no excuses, no ifs, no buts, and I hope they disqualify him from driving any sort of vehicle (not that he will take any notice), over here for life, along with a long prison sentence! Bellend!
MickM
all the rajpots that commit suicide dont really care about anyone else other than themselves…the dude would just be in a bad place mentally,best he stays where he is and gets out sooner.hes going to be the scapegoat by the looks of the media attention.time served ect.if he broke down and his beancounter co told him to not wander about in a live lane leading to him sitting there anyway…whs fault would it have been then…the bus should have stopped,or avoided him in plenty of time,but watch how quietly the race card will come into play if it starts going in that direction.
Parks up in a live lane on the M1, drunk, no licence, possibly asleep, helps to cause eight deaths and misery to all those that had to deal with the aftermath, hardly a scapegoat, but you are of course entitled to your view.
) , but are in possession of the keys, you are deemed to be ’ in charge of’, and can be prosecuted just as if you where driving. This has happened to car drivers in pub carparks.
