Anyway, at risk of upsetting a few participants - I am not required in court tomorrow so instead I’ll be taking one of our puddle jumpers out for a couple of drops around West London. I’ll try not to invoke the DVSA SWAT team while I’m out there…
Harry Monk:
tachograph:
Ahh this old chestnut againThe truth is that it would probably take a court case to decide whether jury service can be counted as rest or not, personally I would say jury service done in the same week as driving in-scope of EU regulations can’t be counted as rest for the drivers hours regulations, so therefore if you’re going to bother about it at-all, it should be recorded as other work.
This has been discussed before.
Does jury duty count as working time?Personally, the question I would ask to ascertain whether jury service is “other work” is “Would DVSA expect an HGV driver to do a print-out covering times spent on jury service when he returned to work?” and my view is that the answer is firmly “No”, therefore it isn’t “other work”.
Sorry but you’re putting the cart before the horse, what an activity counts as has never been defined by whether or not a record needs to be made for it, on the contrary whether or not the time should be recorded is defined by the activity, not the other way round.
When on jury service you cannot freely dispose of your time and are at the instruction of others, try telling a judge he’ll have to wait while you nip down the road to get some ■■■■ 
(that’s a courtroom I’d like to be in 
)
Roymondo:
Strange how a simple query can result in (at last count) three different drivers making comments about dawn raids, SWAT teams, waterboarding and family members being shot without any reference in the OP to anything of the sort. Now, either someone (or three of them at least) is easily excited or they have been reading too many cheap paperbacks than is good for their blood pressure. Get a grip, lads, get a grip…
This happens frequently when a question regarding the regulations is asked, they seem to assume that because you’ve asked a question you must be lying awake at night worrying about it
Anyway, I’ve just checked the forum rules and can now confirm that no TN member is obliged to read these threads if it upsets them 
tachograph:
Sorry but you’re putting the cart before the horse, what an activity counts as has never been defined by whether or not a record needs to be made for it, on the contrary whether or not the time should be recorded is defined by the activity, not the other way round.When on jury service you cannot freely dispose of your time and are at the instruction of others, try telling a judge he’ll have to wait while you nip down the road to get some ■■■■
As you said earlier, it would take a court case to decide it. However, I can’t imagine DVSA prosecuting a driver for insufficient rest because he had been on jury service instead of being sat on the settee scratching his ■■■■■■■■.
Muckaway:
Where’d you stand if you’re self employed and on a long case? If you go bust is it just “oh well, civic duty” or can you inform them of your circumstances?
Never done Jury Service myself and I wouldn’t want to, especially if it’s a fraud trial I’d fall asleep.
You are only obliged to do the two weeks of jury service. If the pool is filed into a courtroom, and it’s going to be a case taking “3 weeks or more” such as a Fraud trial, mass murder, tax evasion, etc. then each pool member is given a chance to “excuse themselves” on the basis of “you are not obliged to give more than two weeks compulsory service”. Those withdrawing from hearing a long trial - are returned to the pool, where they will still attend each day as a “pool member” for the two weeks in question. A shorter case taking less than a week may come along, and the member can sit in on that - or they’ll just spend at least one week sitting in the pool room every day reading the book they brought, and passing the time until around 4pm.
I spent the first two days sitting in the pool room where I was each day filed into a courtroom as “one of eighteen” to be picked in the case. The first two cases I didn’t get picked (12 do, and take their places in the jury box, awaiting any objections by both prosecution and defence for each potential juror.
On my third day, another twelve were picked out of the 18 of us (me not getting picked again) - but on this occasion one of the picked 12 had to declare that they knew the defendant, and asked to be excused (which you must do by law in this circumstance!) The six of us “not initially picked” were then shuffled as names on cards, and I was picked out to substitute the juror who’d dropped out, and thus I ended up sitting in this case, which was a trio of lads being done for violent disorder. This case lasted until the Monday of the following week, and then we were all returned to the pool.
Tuesday Morning had me being picked out for a 3 week attempted murder case, and we picked jurors were all asked if we needed to get permission from our employers to sit beyond the compulsory two week legal requirement. I asked my TM, and got told “You you bloody can’t!” so I was then returned to the pool for the last time, and excused from doing my last two days of the fortnight, since there are no cases lasting two days or less I could possibly be picked for.
As the court were paying the difference between my “off sick” flat pay and “overtime-maxed-out-nights” that I normally worked, - I would have LOVED to have sat on this meaty long-winded trial, or even a fraud case if it had come to that. Jury service was practically doubling my normal pay when I did it, owing to the fact that the court expenses are paid tax free with a travel allowance (also tax free) paid on top. This meant that you’d drop say, £260 per week GROSS from your pay, but have that £260 given back TAX FREE by the court with the travel money on top. So, if your normal wage is a total of £420 let’s say, and you take home around £315 of it - dropping the pay down to £160 and taking home £140 of THAT, plus the £260 tax free +£25 expenses put back on… You’re doing £425 TAKEHOME effectively for that week - Over £100 per week better off, and of course effectively getting a complete change of scenery and dare I say a bit of an adventure into the bargain…
During the period of “Poolroom Banter” that went on, there were about three seriously moany jurors, with a fourth (a woman this time) joining in the second week. They moaned all the time about “how much each day doing this bloody civic duty” was costing them. I asked the obvious question as to “Why they were losing out despite being able to claim expenses from the court” - and the answers I got were along the lines of “We’ve already claimed everything back, and cannot do it again” which I’ll have to put down to some nuance with being Self-Employed. Thus, the court was only paying each self-employed person their travel expenses - a lot less than what I was getting for being paid “wages drop differentials”…
There were a couple of other executive type people who were very nervous about being given a “fraud case” owing to their expertise in the field. Apparently their salaries would not drop at all whilst attending for jury service, and I reckon they just didn’t like the idea of doing some real work for a few weeks - for the pay they were already getting.
The process of “picking a juror” is pretty random. 18 cards with names on are shuffled, and 12 picked to provisionally sit in the jury box.
Counsel for Defendant has the right to object to up to three jurors, and the Prosecutor can do the same, thus possibly requiring the full use (in theory) of all six “unpicked” jurors to substitute as need be.
Reasons for “replace this juror” objections might be anything, such as “Defendant doesn’t like the look of posh guy number two” or “Prosecution doesn’t think trampy-looking jury number five will understand this fraud case” etc. Defendants have a right to be tried by a jury of their PEERS after all. If a defendent is some yobbo toerag then, he or she might want to get rid of posh types on that jury, and replace with three chavvily dressed individuals that the only legal requirement is the defendant must not know in their outside life, even as an acquaintance
Falling asleep in court is very serious - and could result in a fine for contempt of court. Be properly rested for each day in court - as you would be for driving a truck!
…Don’t turn up half-cut either of course…
It’s all just reasonable common sense practice really, if you think about it.
Sure, Jury service has it’s boring and dull bits - but I did mine hoping that I’d “get another go” at some point. I’m informed that the odds are that supposed to be that “no one person gets called to serve more than the once in their lives” thing… That’s before you look at “who replaces all those self-employed types who successfully get out of it”.
If you don’t turn up at all - you’ll be arrested btw. If you make up some bogus excuse - you’ll be fined.
Just jump through the hoops - and you’ll find it’s not all that bad really. There’s no rule that says a self-employed person cannot “take a full time job working for a wage” to push up what they can claim from the court. They must be properly “employed” though, and not “working for a mate” or something easily seen through, and looked dimly upon by the court. Jury Service letters go out anything upto a YEAR before the person is actually required to attend court… This has the downside of taking away people’s excuse of “Sorry bud, I’m on holiday abroad those weeks” - when WHO books a holiday OVER a year in advance… The court people are not daft! I’m sure there are all kinds of fiddles that reluctant jurors “try it on” with to “get out of jury service”…
tachograph:
Roymondo:
Strange how a simple query can result in (at last count) three different drivers making comments about dawn raids, SWAT teams, waterboarding and family members being shot without any reference in the OP to anything of the sort. Now, either someone (or three of them at least) is easily excited or they have been reading too many cheap paperbacks than is good for their blood pressure. Get a grip, lads, get a grip…This happens frequently when a question regarding the regulations is asked, they seem to assume that because you’ve asked a question you must be lying awake at night worrying about it
Anyway, I’ve just checked the forum rules and can now confirm that no TN member is obliged to read these threads if it upsets them
What ? Not read this type of thread…and miss the entertainment? 
are you joking?
No way Pedro.
Ok, fair comment, but to explain my p.o.v,… my nature, whether it is correct or socially acceptable has always been not to take over pompous authority or stupid bloody rules seriously…sorry I can not help it. It is just the way I am. 
As I said as far as tachos go, I run to the law, take my required breaks, don’t go over my time, and it works for me.
It’s just the pedantic over the top supplementary bs that I do not take too serious.
I find it as ridiculous getting worried over it all as some of you find my SWAT team jumping out of choppers analogy ridiculous.
I can only apologise for my flippancy, which obviously winds some of you up… 
I understand why you’re not taking this thread seriously Pops, it’s you criminal record! 
Evil8Beezle:
I understand why you’re not taking this thread seriously Pops, it’s you criminal record!
I used to be resident DJ on a Holiday Camp in a previous life, so I have a few Criminal records,… biggest one Agadoo by Black Lace.
The question of whether jury service counts as other work would never in a million years enter my mind.The only 2 question I would be thinking of are—
A- how do I get out of it and B- how much will I lose if I can’t!. Drivers who ask stupid questions like the one here are usually the ones we’ve all been stuck with on a CPC course,you know, the one’s who lead the instructor off on a tangent about some far fetched scenario that will never happen in the real world while the rest of us who have a life seeth at him because we just want to GTF outta there ASAP
robroy:
whether it is correct or socially acceptable has always been not to take over pompous authority or stupid bloody rules seriously…sorry I can not help it. It is just the way I am.
Much alike i think. Pompous H&S and other ■■■■■■■■ regs which i take a variable on are my dislike…
robroy:
Evil8Beezle:
I understand why you’re not taking this thread seriously Pops, it’s you criminal record!I used to be resident DJ on a Holiday Camp in a previous life, so I have a few Criminal records,… biggest one Agadoo by Black Lace.
And your jokes come a close second!
GOG47:
The question of whether jury service counts as other work would never in a million years enter my mind.The only 2 question I would be thinking of are—
A- how do I get out of it and B- how much will I lose if I can’t!. Drivers who ask stupid questions like the one here are usually the ones we’ve all been stuck with on a CPC course,you know, the one’s who lead the instructor off on a tangent about some far fetched scenario that will never happen in the real world while the rest of us who have a life seeth at him because we just want to GTF outta there ASAP
It’s stat leave. Each day counts as 8 hours against you “other work” wise. You can’t have it as “Non Stat Leave” because you’re not on holiday - just not driving for a fortnight. There’s no need to make a manual entry to the effect of “Other Work” - because the first 20 days where you are contracted to work, but “don’t go to work on those days” are automatically counted as 8 hours against.
So… You couldn’t legally do Monday-Friday of Jury service, and then work across the weekend… WTD defines it as working 7 days on the spin still, although of course you’d nowhere near run out of actual driving hours.
I reckon you could do a single 15 hour shift on the Saturday though - but who would want to?
The court will see a lower drop in pay, and you won’t be compensated as much.
F— it. Drop as much pay as you can - because it’ll all be made up to you! 
I dunno what effect a zero hours contract would be - as I did my jury service before the advent of such contracts being commonplace.
Falling asleep in court is very serious - and could result in a fine for contempt of court. Be properly rested for each day in court - as you would be for driving a truck!
That’s the bit that always worrys me if ever i got called for Jury service. If I just have to sit there doing nothing, I fall asleep. Driving is doing something.
I fell asleep on the front row of Chicago the musical once. Also was guest of honour (whoooo!), again front row…fell asleep, very embarrassing
Winseer:
GOG47:
The question of whether jury service counts as other work would never in a million years enter my mind.The only 2 question I would be thinking of are—
A- how do I get out of it and B- how much will I lose if I can’t!. Drivers who ask stupid questions like the one here are usually the ones we’ve all been stuck with on a CPC course,you know, the one’s who lead the instructor off on a tangent about some far fetched scenario that will never happen in the real world while the rest of us who have a life seeth at him because we just want to GTF outta there ASAPF— it. Drop as much pay as you can - because it’ll all be made up to you!
No, it’s not “all made up to you”. The maximum they’ll give you for “loss of earnings” during your first 10 days of service is £64.95 per full day. You can make a few quid more by taking a packed lunch and claiming the £5.71 a day subsistence allowance and/or using your own car and claiming 31.4p a mile (or use a pushbike and get 9.6p a mile for your efforts).
Winseer:
GOG47:
The question of whether jury service counts as other work would never in a million years enter my mind.The only 2 question I would be thinking of are—
A- how do I get out of it and B- how much will I lose if I can’t!. Drivers who ask stupid questions like the one here are usually the ones we’ve all been stuck with on a CPC course,you know, the one’s who lead the instructor off on a tangent about some far fetched scenario that will never happen in the real world while the rest of us who have a life seeth at him because we just want to GTF outta there ASAPIt’s stat leave. Each day counts as 8 hours against you “other work” wise. You can’t have it as “Non Stat Leave” because you’re not on holiday - just not driving for a fortnight. There’s no need to make a manual entry to the effect of “Other Work” - because the first 20 days where you are contracted to work, but “don’t go to work on those days” are automatically counted as 8 hours against.
So… You couldn’t legally do Monday-Friday of Jury service, and then work across the weekend… WTD defines it as working 7 days on the spin still, although of course you’d nowhere near run out of actual driving hours.
I reckon you could do a single 15 hour shift on the Saturday though - but who would want to?
The court will see a lower drop in pay, and you won’t be compensated as much.F— it. Drop as much pay as you can - because it’ll all be made up to you!
I dunno what effect a zero hours contract would be - as I did my jury service before the advent of such contracts being commonplace.
Judging by the tone of the post that you answered and quoted Winseer mate, I don’t think he’s remotely interested tbh.
Winseer:
It’s stat leave. Each day counts as 8 hours against you “other work” wise. You can’t have it as “Non Stat Leave” because you’re not on holiday - just not driving for a fortnight. There’s no need to make a manual entry to the effect of “Other Work” - because the first 20 days where you are contracted to work, but “don’t go to work on those days” are automatically counted as 8 hours against.
Jury service doesn’t come under the working time regulations for mobile workers.
GOG47:
Drivers who ask stupid questions like the one here are usually the ones we’ve all been stuck with on a CPC course,you know, the one’s who lead the instructor off on a tangent about some far fetched scenario that will never happen in the real world while the rest of us who have a life seeth at him because we just want to GTF outta there ASAP
But your still there for the day so why not 
Roymondo:
Winseer:
GOG47:
The question of whether jury service counts as other work would never in a million years enter my mind.The only 2 question I would be thinking of are—
A- how do I get out of it and B- how much will I lose if I can’t!. Drivers who ask stupid questions like the one here are usually the ones we’ve all been stuck with on a CPC course,you know, the one’s who lead the instructor off on a tangent about some far fetched scenario that will never happen in the real world while the rest of us who have a life seeth at him because we just want to GTF outta there ASAPF— it. Drop as much pay as you can - because it’ll all be made up to you!
No, it’s not “all made up to you”. The maximum they’ll give you for “loss of earnings” during your first 10 days of service is £64.95 per full day. You can make a few quid more by taking a packed lunch and claiming the £5.71 a day subsistence allowance and/or using your own car and claiming 31.4p a mile (or use a pushbike and get 9.6p a mile for your efforts).
£260+£25 per WEEK (as pointed out in my earlier post) would be £57 per day, and a few years back. Looks like I managed to claim the optimum amounts then… The point I’m making though is that this “upper limit” benefits ordinary workers - but from what you’re saying about the cap (which I wasn’t actually aware of) - higher earners lose out. I had to hand in my train tickets to get that part of the claim met as well, and get in writing what the drop difference in pay was going to be. Quite a reasonable basis for a claim still. It’s the fact that you’re losing GROSS pay but getting refunded TAX FREE money by way of compensation - that leaves you better off…
They should pay everyone what they would earn normally, why should you be forced to lose money for something you don’t want to do?
Time for a voluntary system, compulsory jury service should go the same way as national service.
Muckaway:
They should pay everyone what they would earn normally, why should you be forced to lose money for something you don’t want to do?
Time for a voluntary system, compulsory jury service should go the same way as national service.
I’ve already said I’d be up for another bash - on the basis of getting paid the same sort of expenses as before.
Perhaps the old now gone system “made up your drop in money only”, albeit I was apparently unaware of any cap.
Self Employed persons would suggest having a better integrity than most chumps that make up the general public though, and I’m still puzzled as to why the system is harsh to those self employed, but very generous to those in “normal pay PAYE” jobs.
What you do NOT want to have happen at any point though - is the “Jury Service” end up turning into “Members of the public picked to give testimony in a case in which they have particular relevant expertise”…
Down that road lies the path of a “Cheapo Expert Witness Programme”.
It is the expert witnesses that, pound for pound - get paid the most lavish “expenses” of all as it stands.
It is imperative that the general public stay involved in our judicial system though. If we sleepwalk into those totalitarian agendas that would “deny us right to trial by our peers”, then any person of influence and/or wealth - could make up any faux news story they liked about any other - and expect the courts to put the less-well-heeled person in jail each and every time…
Who knows? - Perhaps that was a possible future path the Americans have done the courtesy of steering us away from - by voting down Hilary Clinton, who as a Lawyer - would like to see the system circumnavigate popular opinion, and line the pockets of people like her in it’s stead.
albion:
Falling asleep in court is very serious - and could result in a fine for contempt of court. Be properly rested for each day in court - as you would be for driving a truck!That’s the bit that always worrys me if ever i got called for Jury service. If I just have to sit there doing nothing, I fall asleep. Driving is doing something.
I fell asleep on the front row of Chicago the musical once. Also was guest of honour (whoooo!), again front row…fell asleep, very embarrassing
this may be of help…