tommy t:
I think that the majority of people in the country wouldn’t want May as PM, Problem is will democracy prevail?
Democracy can’t prevail without a PR electoral system let alone when the choice is between Corbyn’s red rabble or the Con Thatcherite tendency with the LibDims thrown in just to add to the cluster zb.
andy187:
tommy t:
Dolph:
Polish family's Plymouth home damaged in 'race hate arson attack' - BBC News
With the bbc reporting it who is to say it’s true? It’s possible that they made the letter or had it made , set fire to their house for insurance payout , wouldn’t be the first to do something like that , with a added race hate card
Maybe they ■■■■■■ someone off ? why they all seem to be reporting hate crimes since the referendum, if they are happening as often then i find it very hard to accept the same amount of these crimes wasn’t happening before it, just that the pro EU media didn’t bother to report it back thenin the local rag as well
It all seems a bit too convenient.If more than 17 million people ever really intended the free movement issue to turn nasty in that way we’d know about it and it wouldn’t need reporting by the bs biased BBC. 
Having said that the East Euro countries’ governments aren’t helping themselves by ignoring the concerns of West Euro populations.Who’ve made it clear that they’ve had enough of the free movement agenda and resulting economic migration and being dictated to Polish Communist leaders in that regard for example.
Carryfast:
Winseer:
Now is the time for all politicians to stop being weak, always on the backfoot defending perceived lies that are in fact “speculations about the future that might never happen”.When you put a quid on a horse - you tend to be chuffed when you win £50 - but no one ever thinks of backing the 50-1 shot to GET that payoff.
If you back evens - you get £2. I don’t personally consider “double or nothing” a very good deal worth risking the status quo for.
I’ve not believed that from the very beginning.
What I DO believe in though - is getting that meaty 50-1 return on something that has now a 50% chance of actually happening, providing the pitfalls can be avoided on the way.
Scrapping our loss-making trade routes with the EU, and replacing them with further-afield routes, allowing us to re-source most things we were previously getting from the EU… Egyptian Strawberries, Brazillian Bananas, South African Apples, etc. There are multiple sources for most “quality produce” albeit no so “branded manufactured goods”. So… Do we believe that there is no viable replacement for a BMW or Merc?
The moment you find you can “do without something” - is the first time ever you really have any real control and mastery over it.
We can pick and choose which bits of the EU we want. It’s for them to offer us concessions now. Ponce us about - and we’ll just re-source it elsewhere. Ponce us about, and we’ll sell our own goods and services elsewhere as well. Germany pushed through the purchase of the London Stock Exchange… Who’s going to dismantle THAT brick by brick and cart it to Frankfurt?“Vision” then. “A plan with the rest of the world” then.
I’d rather Leadsom be at the helm instead of a half-hearted remainer, half-hearted leader of the opposition…
Where did Kate stand on the no confidence vote btw? Is she one of the 172?
We have not heard much from other Labour Brexiteers of late either.
I think Loathsome is more a remainer than a leaver just like May and just like Thatcher before them.Which explains why no statement that EEA is off the table.
While it’s obvious that the Labour Eurosceptics have been gagged and crushed by Corbyn’s red army.
A bit like the Con ‘Eurosceptics’ in that case.
You’re making me look like the next MP for Tunbridge Wells with stuff like that.
“Momentum” isn’t so much the machine behind Corbyn - It’s a faceless machine that has the face of Corbyn to make it look more respectable than the brownshirt outfit that it already seems to be. “Online Bullying and Trolling” are it’s main weapons…
“Fear, Surprise, and ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope!”
Carryfast:
tommy t:
I think that the majority of people in the country wouldn’t want May as PM, Problem is will democracy prevail?Democracy can’t prevail without a PR electoral system let alone when the choice is between Corbyn’s red rabble or the Con Thatcherite tendency with the LibDims thrown in just to add to the cluster zb.
PR won’t be workable in this country unless we have a PR system where the “most seats gets to win” rather than the situation as it is, where you have to actually have “more seats than all the others combined” ie. a parliamentary majority.
If we try to make it work with PR WITHOUT doing this - we’ll never have a majority government again alas. Endless coalitions are the face of what’s wrong with PR over the entire continent - don’t let us forget. 
Winseer:
Carryfast:
tommy t:
I think that the majority of people in the country wouldn’t want May as PM, Problem is will democracy prevail?Democracy can’t prevail without a PR electoral system let alone when the choice is between Corbyn’s red rabble or the Con Thatcherite tendency with the LibDims thrown in just to add to the cluster zb.
PR won’t be workable in this country unless we have a PR system where the “most seats gets to win” rather than the situation as it is, where you have to actually have “more seats than all the others combined” ie. a parliamentary majority.
If we try to make it work with PR WITHOUT doing this - we’ll never have a majority government again alas. Endless coalitions are the face of what’s wrong with PR over the entire continent - don’t let us forget.
Why not have a voting system based on the same system as the referendum so that each vote counts no more safe seat bs, ? I feel that PR was rejected because it did not go far enough and wouldn’t of enabled proper reform of the voting system in this country, ( the safe seat thing is bollox everything should be up for grabs in a GE so those lazy do nothing MP’s get off their asses and campaign) Infact an election should not be won on number of seat held but the number of votes
Winseer:
Carryfast:
tommy t:
I think that the majority of people in the country wouldn’t want May as PM, Problem is will democracy prevail?Democracy can’t prevail without a PR electoral system let alone when the choice is between Corbyn’s red rabble or the Con Thatcherite tendency with the LibDims thrown in just to add to the cluster zb.
PR won’t be workable in this country unless we have a PR system where the “most seats gets to win” rather than the situation as it is, where you have to actually have “more seats than all the others combined” ie. a parliamentary majority.
If we try to make it work with PR WITHOUT doing this - we’ll never have a majority government again alas. Endless coalitions are the face of what’s wrong with PR over the entire continent - don’t let us forget.
Are co alitions really such bad things though in that they at least give all sides representation of some sort.As I’ve said I’d have preferred to see a co alition of a Powell led Conservative and Shore led Labour in 1975 than what we had in the form of Callaghan.Or to bring that up to date Davis working with Hoey and Farage to give us an arguably more credible Brexit agenda.While it’s obvious that there’s no way of reflecting the Leave vote and the aspirations behind that vote into reality in parliament without a PR electoral system.
On that note I think that we’ve already got/had what’s needed in the European parliament and it was just a case of making that fit for purpose in the form of a Confederal Europe.Which returned decision making powers to the National MEP groups in the form of National MEP opt out,substitution and VETO over the commissioners.At which point the European Parliament’s PR electoral system is then ironically not only more democratic but it also breaks the stranglehold of the Lab/LibDem/Con cabal which infests the National parliament.In addition to dealing with the Federalist v anti Federalist argument where it needs to be dealt with on a European basis.
Instead of which we’ve got the contradictory cluster zb of Farage having now thrown the baby out with the bathwater by giving the initiative to a non PR elected national parliament.With just the choice of either Federalist Europhile Corbynite or Thatcherite agendas.
So there we have it UKIP’s policy of returning sovereignty to the UK parliament has predictably backfired catastrophically.In just adding to the strength of the Europhile Federalist cause.When at this point we’d ideally have an alliance of UKIP,FN,AfD,and Austrian freedom etc all in a united front pushing for a Confederal Europe. 
tommy t:
Why not have a voting system based on the same system as the referendum so that each vote counts no more safe seat bs, ? I feel that PR was rejected because it did not go far enough and wouldn’t of enabled proper reform of the voting system in this country, ( the safe seat thing is bollox everything should be up for grabs in a GE so those lazy do nothing MP’s get off their asses and campaign
PR is more or less the same as a referendum numbers,not local boundary concentration,based system.In which case we’ve already got that in the European Parliamentary system.With a stronger UKIP prescence to show for it.It was then just a case of making that work for us by giving the decision making powers to the MEP groups over the commissioners and also on a National Group basis of opt out,substitution and VETO.Then we could sack the bunch of zb’s ruling us in the National Parliament.While also dealing with the problem of the Socialist/cheap labour alliance takeover,where it needs to be dealt with on a European wide basis.
2 weeks after the referendum and it’s all change then apart from nothing’s changed! I see on the news it still looks like 2016 in UK not 1964.
In Madeira on hols, a part of Portugal that obviously knows how to play the EU. Roads, tunnels, amenities way beyond the islands earning power. Maybe if the UK had played the game rather than antagonising the EU we may have seen the benefits rather than moaning about straight bananas? Nobody likes a whiney kid eh!
Sent from my X17 using Tapatalk
tommy t:
Winseer:
Carryfast:
tommy t:
I think that the majority of people in the country wouldn’t want May as PM, Problem is will democracy prevail?Democracy can’t prevail without a PR electoral system let alone when the choice is between Corbyn’s red rabble or the Con Thatcherite tendency with the LibDims thrown in just to add to the cluster zb.
PR won’t be workable in this country unless we have a PR system where the “most seats gets to win” rather than the situation as it is, where you have to actually have “more seats than all the others combined” ie. a parliamentary majority.
If we try to make it work with PR WITHOUT doing this - we’ll never have a majority government again alas. Endless coalitions are the face of what’s wrong with PR over the entire continent - don’t let us forget.
Why not have a voting system based on the same system as the referendum so that each vote counts no more safe seat bs, ? I feel that PR was rejected because it did not go far enough and wouldn’t of enabled proper reform of the voting system in this country, ( the safe seat thing is bollox everything should be up for grabs in a GE so those lazy do nothing MP’s get off their asses and campaign) Infact an election should not be won on number of seat held but the number of votes
I didn’t think we rejected PR - we rejected AR which is the worst of both worlds…
Another issue with PR that someone needs to explain to me further - is like this argument:
"A single faction gets 35% of the vote, which is the largest poll for a single faction. It’s not over 50% though, so they are seemingly obliged to go into coalition.
… How do the parliamentary seats then get allocated on that 35% national poll for that party? Is it like "First seat goes to the current leader, then a further say, 300 seats are handed out according to… WHAT exactly■■?
Even if say, UKIP scored a poll of 4m - and that gives them say, 60 seats - WHICH of the UKIP candidates around the country (let’s say there are 400 of them) get awarded those seats?
I would argue for the time being - that perhaps a better system would be to KEEP the “First past the post” then for each constituency - BUT each constituency consists of FIXED postcodes ONLY.
NO more “boundary changes”.
NO more “sparse population safe seats” that are at present “too easy to hold” because that small population all live in big houses down country lanes or whatever.
NO densely populated seats that are full of benefit claimants.
Even if you “postcoded it” in an area like Edmonton next door to Enfield Southgate for example, - you’d get the posh job-lotted in with the riff-raff, whereas at present Edmonton is fairly “safe Labour” compared to Enfield “fairly safe Tory”. The boundaries should be fixed of actual post code - rather than moved around willy nilly to suit the government of the hour.
There are too many seats in Britain that need a landslide to unseat the incumbent - not because they are so much “safe seats” - but because the boundaries now include HUGE swathes of “One type of population over another”. Polarization has already been put in place during the past decade. What next? - There is no political will to “reduce the number of MPs wasting our money” - because the incumbent government wouldn’t DREAM of merging two safe Tory seats - would they? Then repeat so that 650 seats gets reduced to 600? - That’s enough at present to throw us back into the “eternal coalition” camp, that all the money was betting on just last year FFS. 
Munchkin:
2 weeks after the referendum and it’s all change then apart from nothing’s changed! I see on the news it still looks like 2016 in UK not 1964.
In Madeira on hols, a part of Portugal that obviously knows how to play the EU. Roads, tunnels, amenities way beyond the islands earning power. Maybe if the UK had played the game rather than antagonising the EU we may have seen the benefits rather than moaning about straight bananas? Nobody likes a whiney kid eh!Sent from my X17 using Tapatalk
52% felt there were less benefits than disadvantages to staying in. No one would be arsed to vote a certain way, unless they’d at least given it at least a little thought would they?
“Hey guys, let’s go into this polling booth, and all vote against the status quo - just for $h!ts and giggles!”
Winseer:
“Momentum” isn’t so much the machine behind Corbyn - It’s a faceless machine that has the face of Corbyn to make it look more respectable than the brownshirt outfit that it already seems to be. “Online Bullying and Trolling” are it’s main weapons…“Fear, Surprise, and ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope!”
It’s basically another spin of the Militant entryist wheel. I wouldn’t call it a brownshirt outfit, although you always get a few blasts from the past lurking in the same places.
Munchkin:
2 weeks after the referendum and it’s all change then apart from nothing’s changed! I see on the news it still looks like 2016 in UK not 1964.
In Madeira on hols, a part of Portugal that obviously knows how to play the EU. Roads, tunnels, amenities way beyond the islands earning power. Maybe if the UK had played the game rather than antagonising the EU we may have seen the benefits rather than moaning about straight bananas? Nobody likes a whiney kid eh!
You’ve contradicted yourself.Yes Portugal and East Euro are net recipients and we are net payers for it all that’s the name of the ‘game’.So how is staying with that scam instead of ditching it supposedly good for us.
Winseer:
I didn’t think we rejected PR - we rejected AR which is the worst of both worlds…Another issue with PR that someone needs to explain to me further - is like this argument:
"A single faction gets 35% of the vote, which is the largest poll for a single faction. It’s not over 50% though, so they are seemingly obliged to go into coalition.
… How do the parliamentary seats then get allocated on that 35% national poll for that party? Is it like "First seat goes to the current leader, then a further say, 300 seats are handed out according to… WHAT exactly■■?Even if say, UKIP scored a poll of 4m - and that gives them say, 60 seats - WHICH of the UKIP candidates around the country (let’s say there are 400 of them) get awarded those seats?
I would argue for the time being - that perhaps a better system would be to KEEP the “First past the post” then for each constituency - BUT each constituency consists of FIXED postcodes ONLY.
NO more “boundary changes”.
NO more “sparse population safe seats” that are at present “too easy to hold” because that small population all live in big houses down country lanes or whatever.
NO densely populated seats that are full of benefit claimants.
Even if you “postcoded it” in an area like Edmonton next door to Enfield Southgate for example, - you’d get the posh job-lotted in with the riff-raff, whereas at present Edmonton is fairly “safe Labour” compared to Enfield “fairly safe Tory”. The boundaries should be fixed of actual post code - rather than moved around willy nilly to suit the government of the hour.
There are too many seats in Britain that need a landslide to unseat the incumbent - not because they are so much “safe seats” - but because the boundaries now include HUGE swathes of “One type of population over another”. Polarization has already been put in place during the past decade. What next? - There is no political will to “reduce the number of MPs wasting our money” - because the incumbent government wouldn’t DREAM of merging two safe Tory seats - would they? Then repeat so that 650 seats gets reduced to 600? - That’s enough at present to throw us back into the “eternal coalition” camp, that all the money was betting on just last year FFS.
We’ve already got a working PR system within the European parliament.In which case we’ve been sold a lemon.In the form of the diversionary bs that we have to repatriate powers to the National parliament.When the National parliament is based on an undemocratic electoral system.With the lose lose situation that it ‘also’ supports the even more undemocratic system within the EU parliament which gives more powers to the commissioners than the MEP’s on a Federal EU wide basis.Let alone the situation in the case of the EEA where the commissioners will still dictate our legislation etc but we won’t even have any MEP’s.
If Farage was supposedly bothered about the democratic issue then the idea would/should have been the transfer of all powers to the MEP’s over the commissioners and with the National MEP group right of opt out,substitution and VETO.IE taking an objective view at Farage’s pay grade the only logical advice was vote remain and let the Nationalist groups within Europe go for a Confederal Europe.
Oh wait Farage and UKIP weren’t a Nationalist Party.Just a bunch of disillusioned Cons going for a new Thatcherite regime at home as an EEA member state which gives us all the zb the EU can throw at us with no upsides even assuming there were any ‘upsides’.Just as Thatcher intended as a Europhile campaigner in 1975
Winseer:
52% felt there were less benefits than disadvantages to staying in. No one would be arsed to vote a certain way, unless they’d at least given it at least a little thought would they?“Hey guys, let’s go into this polling booth, and all vote against the status quo - just for $h!ts and giggles!”
Not zb’s and giggles.More like hoodwinked into another Federalist Europhile Thatcherite administration.
With the guarantee that the EU Federal zb pile that it’s so keen on when it suits it will be at least less able to impose anything which it doesn’t like.Which is more or less what the EEA scam was designed for.IE the cheap labour EU agenda is at the heart of EEA membership and as such could have been designed by Thatcher herself.
Meanwhile in the real world.
Dolph:
Meanwhile in the real world.
Meanwhile in the real world.
xe.com/currencycharts/?from= … SD&view=5Y
xe.com/currencycharts/?from= … SD&view=5Y
xe.com/currencycharts/?from= … SD&view=5Y
Remainers are entitled to a say:
anon84679660:
Remainers are entitled to a say:
Fine I’ve changed my mind I’m now a remainer.So what about reforming the EU parliament into a Confederal system from a Federal one.In which the MEP’s have supremacy over the commissioners and the national right of opt out,substitution and VETO.IE surely the remainers wouldn’t want to show,that they are just an undemocratic bunch of zb wits,who don’t do democracy,twice.
Carryfast:
anon84679660:
Remainers are entitled to a say:Fine I’ve changed my mind I’m now a remainer.So what about reforming the EU parliament into a Confederal system from a Federal one.In which the MEP’s have supremacy over the commissioners and the national right of opt out,substitution and VETO.IE surely the remainers wouldn’t want to show,that they are just an undemocratic bunch of zb wits,who don’t do democracy,twice.
How about you start with telling people/the voters the truth.
You just can’t stomach, your idols have been telling lies and that’s how they won the referendum.
If people had been told the truth, the outcome would have bene completely different, and that’s what is not allowing you to sleep, you feel obliged to be posting in here 24/7 to make sure leavers don’t start doubting their decision and demanding rerun of the referendum.
anon84679660:
Carryfast:
anon84679660:
Remainers are entitled to a say:Fine I’ve changed my mind I’m now a remainer.So what about reforming the EU parliament into a Confederal system from a Federal one.In which the MEP’s have supremacy over the commissioners and the national right of opt out,substitution and VETO.IE surely the remainers wouldn’t want to show,that they are just an undemocratic bunch of zb wits,who don’t do democracy,twice.
How about you start with telling people/the voters the truth.
You just can’t stomach, your idols have been telling lies and that’s how they won the referendum.
If people had been told the truth, the outcome would have bene completely different, and that’s what is not allowing you to sleep, you feel obliged to be posting in here 24/7 to make sure leavers don’t start doubting their decision and demanding rerun of the referendum.
Cut the hypocritical Federalist Soviet bs and answer the question.
Which part of I actually support the idea of remaining and a re run of the referendum rather than leaving.‘But’ we need to reform the EU into a proper democracy to make a justified case for doing it,don’t you understand.
IE The leavers took us out on the bs case that they wanted to return powers to the national parliament.When that parliament isn’t much more democratic than the federal zb pile they said they wanted to take us out of and which it,as a majority,actually supports anyway.So what are you afraid of in gaining the moral high ground by turning the EU into a proper democratic system of European government that also recognises the self determination and sovereignty of the nation state.
