In or Out- the EU referendum mega thread

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1541

tommy t:

Looooo:
Oh, and have you heard Ken’s unguarded comments yet?

But Clarke hopes Leadsom at least understands how foolish it would be to deliver on “some of the extremely stupid things she’s been saying”. What’s more, “she’s not one of the tiny band of lunatics who thinks we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market”.

He’s wrong on that point we don’t need no single market, the main reason the lefty nutters keep on harping on about it ,is so the invasion of this country can continue, along with the cheap labor that comes with it, and that does the working classes no good , and secondly is the easiest option for government , but that isn’t the brexit we voted for , nor do we really need to access the single market that’s propaganda by those who want us to remain enslaved to the dictatorship EU

The reason people keep harping on about it is because that is where our flaming income comes from! Not only as a nation, but personally. The businesses want cheap labour yes, because labour is one of the costs of production and businesses exist to make money. Money for the share holders, who buy big houses, that need painting and plumbers and extensions built that need builders and deliveries. Don’t you understand that all this money has to come from somewhere and then trickles down to the workers? Circulates around the system?

It is called an economy, and if no wealth is being generated at the top how the heck do you think any of it is going to trickle down to the bottom?

So you sever the economy at the top and no businesses have customers abroad and no businesses employ workers from abroad where the hell do you think the money is coming from?

Actual businesses right now are deciding to REMOVE investment from the country. Foreign clients are cancelling orders, international businesses with offices in multiple countries are putting plans in place to move workers elsewhere. This is happening and it is NOT going to be leading to MORE money in our system. That is why the governor of the Bank of E is reducing interest rates which are already so low, to try to encourage people to keep spending because we need the cash flowing around the system. People, individuals, will start to save instead of spending cos they don’t know what the future holds so they buy less so shops close so shop workers lose their jobs. It is called a recession and we have just had a good crack at starting one intentionally which is, as was warned, complete madness.

If you are worried about being at the bottom of the pile why don’t you exercises that individual spirit that the tories encourage and get off your arse and upskill so that you earn more than the poor migrant who arrives without a pot to ■■■■ in. If you are finding them serious competition with all the indiginous advantages you have, I would suggest you are not trying hard enough.

Wealthy arab countries are rammed full of poor people from South East Asia and the sub continent. You think they are competing with Saudi’s for Saudi jobs? Are they heck as like. They are doing slave jobs for a pittance.

1542

Looooo:

tommy t:

Looooo:
Oh, and have you heard Ken’s unguarded comments yet?

But Clarke hopes Leadsom at least understands how foolish it would be to deliver on “some of the extremely stupid things she’s been saying”. What’s more, “she’s not one of the tiny band of lunatics who thinks we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market”.

He’s wrong on that point we don’t need no single market, the main reason the lefty nutters keep on harping on about it ,is so the invasion of this country can continue, along with the cheap labor that comes with it, and that does the working classes no good , and secondly is the easiest option for government , but that isn’t the brexit we voted for , nor do we really need to access the single market that’s propaganda by those who want us to remain enslaved to the dictatorship EU

The reason people keep harping on about it is because that is where our flaming income comes from! Not only as a nation, but personally. The businesses want cheap labour yes, because labour is one of the costs of production and businesses exist to make money. Money for the share holders, who buy big houses, that need painting and plumbers and extensions built that need builders and deliveries. Don’t you understand that all this money has to come from somewhere and then trickles down to the workers? Circulates around the system?

It is called an economy, and if no wealth is being generated at the top how the heck do you think any of it is going to trickle down to the bottom?

So you sever the economy at the top and no businesses have customers abroad and no businesses employ workers from abroad where the hell do you think the money is coming from?

Actual businesses right now are deciding to REMOVE investment from the country. Foreign clients are cancelling orders, international businesses with offices in multiple countries are putting plans in place to move workers elsewhere. This is happening and it is NOT going to be leading to MORE money in our system. That is why the governor of the Bank of E is reducing interest rates which are already so low, to try to encourage people to keep spending because we need the cash flowing around the system. People, individuals, will start to save instead of spending cos they don’t know what the future holds so they buy less so shops close so shop workers lose their jobs. It is called a recession and we have just had a good crack at starting one intentionally which is, as was warned, complete madness.

If you are worried about being at the bottom of the pile why don’t you exercises that individual spirit that the tories encourage and get off your arse and upskill so that you earn more than the poor migrant who arrives without a pot to ■■■■ in. If you are finding them serious competition with all the indiginous advantages you have, I would suggest you are not trying hard enough.

Wealthy arab countries are rammed full of poor people from South East Asia and the sub continent. You think they are competing with Saudi’s for Saudi jobs? Are they heck as like. They are doing slave jobs for a pittance.

So now to add to the fact that you want to go to war with Russia. :open_mouth: :laughing: You’ve now shown that you’ve got some serious racist issues directed against the indigenous community.Keep digging.I’m sure the Labour vote will be ecstatic to read your view of the situation.

As for your grasp of economics that’s even worse than your foreign policy.Feel free to explain how you’re making all this supposed ‘income’ by borrowing loads of money to sustain a Socialist wealth re distribution scam in the form of our net EU contributions.Collapsing tax revenues caused by the low wage levels that you’re obviously supporting combined with the resulting in work benefits bill.Together with having to sustain an unsustainable trade deficit with the EU.While having to fund an ever increasingly over loaded health and social security system together with the housing shortages caused by the ever increasing immigrant population.Bearing in mind that we don’t want to live in a place that is like a Baghdad suburb.

Here’s a clue,with the exception of a load of deranged Bolsheviks,you unsurprisingly lost the Labour vote in the referendum because of the type of utter zb that you’re trying to ram down its throat.It’s time you got the message. :imp:

1543

Haven’t you heard CF? Britain is tired of experts. So I guess we can all have a go now.

1544

Looooo:
Haven’t you heard CF? Britain is tired of experts. So I guess we can all have a go now.

To be fair what could possibly go wrong with opening the door to Merkel’s immigration plans,going to war with Russia and buying more Kraut cars with borrowed or printed money.

Hopefully the call up for the Russian front will be all immigrants first.That’ll fix it and at least we’ll know for sure which side they were on. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

1545

zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-0 … sets-more-

"As first reported last night, and following up this morning, in an episode painfully reminiscent of the Bear hedge fund “freezes” that preceded the bank’s 2008 collapse and the great financial crisis , first Standard Life halted trading in its property fund, followed hours later by both Aviva and M&G which likewise announced they are suspending trading in their own portfolio funds. And, as Bloomberg summarizes, three of the U.K.’s largest real estate funds have frozen almost 9.1 billion pounds ($12 billion) of assets after Britain’s shock vote to leave the European Union sparked a flurry of redemptions.

These were the first major dominoes to fall as a result of the confusion resulting from the Brexit vote. M&G Investments, Aviva Investors and Standard Life Investments halted withdrawals because they don’t have enough cash to immediately repay investors. About 24.5 billion pounds is allocated to U.K. real estate funds, according to the Investment Association.

The rush by private investors to withdraw money prompted M&G, which held 7.7% in cash before the vote, to suspend its 4.4 billion-pound Property Portfolio fund and Aviva Investors to freeze its 1.8 billion-pound Property Trust on Tuesday. Standard Life halted trading on its 2.9 billion-pound U.K. real estate fund on Monday. The cash position for Aviva and Standard Life’s funds at the end of May was 9.3% and 13.1% respectively.

The market reaction has been swift and brutal, sending stocks of the property-linked asset managers crashing."

They can’t pull investment out quick enough.

1546

Theresa May wins the first round with 50% of the vote and is therefore guaranteed a place in the final two to be voted on by the membership. The interesting part is next. May would rather have Gove on the ticket and attack him as a backstabbing, untrustworthy leaper. The last thing she wants is Leadsom. My money is, literally, on Gove to pull out and his votes to go to Leadsom leaving an all female ticket for the members. Then do I leave my money on a Leadsom win or lay off? Hmmm!

1547

Looooo:
Zerohedge

"As first reported last night, and following up this morning, in an episode painfully reminiscent of the Bear hedge fund “freezes” that preceded the bank’s 2008 collapse and the great financial crisis , first Standard Life halted trading in its property fund, followed hours later by both Aviva and M&G which likewise announced they are suspending trading in their own portfolio funds. And, as Bloomberg summarizes, three of the U.K.’s largest real estate funds have frozen almost 9.1 billion pounds ($12 billion) of assets after Britain’s shock vote to leave the European Union sparked a flurry of redemptions.

These were the first major dominoes to fall as a result of the confusion resulting from the Brexit vote. M&G Investments, Aviva Investors and Standard Life Investments halted withdrawals because they don’t have enough cash to immediately repay investors. About 24.5 billion pounds is allocated to U.K. real estate funds, according to the Investment Association."

Are we seeing the same issues in Switzerland which isn’t a member of the EU or the EEA ?.

Meanwhile ‘reminiscent’ of the ‘2008’ ‘collapse’.Weren’t we a member of the EU with no plans to leave at that time.Just like when Callaghan had to go running to the IMF for a bail out.Obviously to maintain our unsustainable net EU contributions and trade deficit.

1548

Stanley Knife:
Theresa May wins the first round with 50% of the vote and is therefore guaranteed a place in the final two to be voted on by the membership. The interesting part is next. May would rather have Gove on the ticket and attack him as a backstabbing, untrustworthy leaper. The last thing she wants is Leadsom. My money is, literally, on Gove to pull out and his votes to go to Leadsom leaving an all female ticket for the members. Then do I leave my money on a Leadsom win or lay off? Hmmm!

express.co.uk/news/uk/685698 … e-politics

May crowned as PM,or Leadsom wins,Ken Clarke as chancellor and either the vote over turned or maybe we leave the EU for the EEA at some point.Who cares.The Austrian and French elections will be the real question.

1549

Evil8Beezle:

Rjan:
the Brexiteers seem to have almost no economic analysts on their side and have already been caught lying and exaggerating before votes were even cast).

I think Rikki is asking for this conversation to be moved to the EU Mega thread! :wink:

And on that thread maybe you could explain how long our government was lying about being able to bring down immigration…
It’s all very well accusing the Brexiteers of being liars, but to do that you need to have the moral high ground! :wink:

[following my orders to move this discussion here…]

I wouldn’t hesitate to say the Tories have lied about bringing down worldwide immigration, because we all know the implication of doing so is that they’d have to fire up more training and development courses, raise wages and improve retention, and that in the meantime businesses who haven’t trained and retained for their needs (including it must be said the NHS) would have key posts unfilled.

The same will be true of EU immigration, when or if we regain notional control over that. Why is it that people who currently have one foot in the Jobcentre and another in agency work, think that the party of the rich and of capitalist business, is suddenly going to bequeath them a pay rise of several pounds an hour and return to the industrial relations of the 1960s when bosses’ desperation was such that you could walk into any factory and get a job on the spot (even if 30 minutes earlier you’d told the boss next door to ■■■■ off)?

Even if our economy could meet the demand, by drawing in all the young and workless, and all the redundant guys in their 50s and 60s, and paying them really good wages for routine work, the fact is that it would amount to a huge rebalancing of wealth and power to the working class akin to that which happned after the Second World War, and it’s just not going to happen under a Tory government (like it wouldn’t have happened under Churchill).

Even under Hitler who was mobilising his society for an all-out war, modest steps were taken to improve wages and conditions only after the German working class had first been immiserated by huge drops in wages and trade unionists sent to concentration camps, and the price to be paid for this was in Hitler’s claim on those workers’ loyalty and lives (with which he ultimately acted to wreak death and destruction on every European nation including his own).

Right wing leaders are like mafia dons, it’s just not in their mentality or outlook to make giveaways for the common good. And the Tories are not going to send immigrant workers home from British factories, only to replace them with the relative dregs of our society, including the young and untrained, the inexperienced, the old and the tired, and the difficult to govern and the unreliable, at twice the cost in wages. It might be good for our society for such a thing to happen, but it’s effect to rebalance wealth and power is not good for anyone who believes themselves to currently be on the golden side of that imbalance and who are represented by centre-right politicians.

1550

I don’t have the answers Rjan, I never said i did and I don’t think anyone does…

It’s quite possibly true that leaving the EU was a bad idea, again i don’t know either way. But what I do know is that lies were/are being told on both sides, but only the leavers seem to be getting the abuse which is probably because they were the perceived winners. I know things are not going to change overnight if at all, but it’s fair to say nothing was going to change on the current course, as why would it have? What the leavers have done though is give the establishment fat cats and business leaders a bloody nose and something to think about.

Whether that improves things I don’t know, but it did feel good! :smiley:

It can’t be denied that the class gap in this country is widening, and it’s all very well some people saying that people should upskill, but not everyone can upskill, so where does that leaves the ones that can’t? Should they be just left in the gutter facing worse and worse conditions while society as a whole ignores them? We still have to support them don’t we? Wouldn’t it be better to have a system where people can actually earn a real living wage and not be victims to exploitation, as that’s what we currently have with uncontrolled immigration…

1551

Rjan:
I wouldn’t hesitate to say the Tories have lied about bringing down worldwide immigration, because we all know the implication of doing so is that they’d have to fire up more training and development courses, raise wages and improve retention, and that in the meantime businesses who haven’t trained and retained for their needs (including it must be said the NHS) would have key posts unfilled.

The same will be true of EU immigration, when or if we regain notional control over that. Why is it that people who currently have one foot in the Jobcentre and another in agency work, think that the party of the rich and of capitalist business, is suddenly going to bequeath them a pay rise of several pounds an hour and return to the industrial relations of the 1960s when bosses’ desperation was such that you could walk into any factory and get a job on the spot (even if 30 minutes earlier you’d told the boss next door to [zb] off)?

Even if our economy could meet the demand, by drawing in all the young and workless, and all the redundant guys in their 50s and 60s, and paying them really good wages for routine work, the fact is that it would amount to a huge rebalancing of wealth and power to the working class akin to that which happned after the Second World War, and it’s just not going to happen under a Tory government (like it wouldn’t have happened under Churchill).

Even under Hitler who was mobilising his society for an all-out war, modest steps were taken to improve wages and conditions only after the German working class had first been immiserated by huge drops in wages and trade unionists sent to concentration camps, and the price to be paid for this was in Hitler’s claim on those workers’ loyalty and lives (with which he ultimately acted to wreak death and destruction on every European nation including his own).

Right wing leaders are like mafia dons, it’s just not in their mentality or outlook to make giveaways for the common good. And the Tories are not going to send immigrant workers home from British factories, only to replace them with the relative dregs of our society, including the young and untrained, the inexperienced, the old and the tired, and the difficult to govern and the unreliable, at twice the cost in wages. It might be good for our society for such a thing to happen, but it’s effect to rebalance wealth and power is not good for anyone who believes themselves to currently be on the golden side of that imbalance and who are represented by centre-right politicians.

We’re not going to fix that by going along with the Socialist zb wits who proclaim themselves to be the self appointed saviours of the working class.Either in the form of their equally bat zb ideas on open door immigration.Or foreign aid in which any place perceived as being slightly better off than the next is expected to hand over what they’ve got.Bearing in mind that you’ve obviously selectively chosen your perceived idea of ‘right’ in the form of Hitler when exactly the same could be said about Mao or Stalin.

IE Yes we know the Tories are all about a corrupted non Fordist idea of ‘Capitalism’.But we won’t fix that by going for the equally exploitative bs Socialist system and ideology which has crippled the Labour Party since its inception.Hitler’s ideas just being another form of that ideology.

What we need is Nationalism.Based on Capitalist Fordist economic principles in which we put our own people and country first.We’re not a charity put here to look after the rest of the world.

As for where Europe fits into all that.As I said a Confederal Europe giving supremacy to the nation states,not a Federal one,is the way to make that work.On that note forget the bs that such a system creates ‘impasse’ or that looking after the National interest starts wars.When the facts show that European wars are the result of the aggression of the Federation against the Nation State.

While dictatorial Socialists,taking advantage of exploitative Commercial practices,to further their bs political ideological aims,are all the same.Whether it’s Red Russia or Red China or Tito’s Yugoslavia,or ■■■■ Germany,or Spinelli’s EU.

1552

Looooo:

tommy t:

Looooo:
Oh, and have you heard Ken’s unguarded comments yet?

But Clarke hopes Leadsom at least understands how foolish it would be to deliver on “some of the extremely stupid things she’s been saying”. What’s more, “she’s not one of the tiny band of lunatics who thinks we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market”.

He’s wrong on that point we don’t need no single market, the main reason the lefty nutters keep on harping on about it ,is so the invasion of this country can continue, along with the cheap labor that comes with it, and that does the working classes no good , and secondly is the easiest option for government , but that isn’t the brexit we voted for , nor do we really need to access the single market that’s propaganda by those who want us to remain enslaved to the dictatorship EU

The reason people keep harping on about it is because that is where our flaming income comes from! Not only as a nation, but personally. The businesses want cheap labour yes, because labour is one of the costs of production and businesses exist to make money. Money for the share holders, who buy big houses, that need painting and plumbers and extensions built that need builders and deliveries. Don’t you understand that all this money has to come from somewhere and then trickles down to the workers? Circulates around the system?

It is called an economy, and if no wealth is being generated at the top how the heck do you think any of it is going to trickle down to the bottom?

So you sever the economy at the top and no businesses have customers abroad and no businesses employ workers from abroad where the hell do you think the money is coming from?

Actual businesses right now are deciding to REMOVE investment from the country. Foreign clients are cancelling orders, international businesses with offices in multiple countries are putting plans in place to move workers elsewhere. This is happening and it is NOT going to be leading to MORE money in our system. That is why the governor of the Bank of E is reducing interest rates which are already so low, to try to encourage people to keep spending because we need the cash flowing around the system. People, individuals, will start to save instead of spending cos they don’t know what the future holds so they buy less so shops close so shop workers lose their jobs. It is called a recession and we have just had a good crack at starting one intentionally which is, as was warned, complete madness.

If you are worried about being at the bottom of the pile why don’t you exercises that individual spirit that the tories encourage and get off your arse and upskill so that you earn more than the poor migrant who arrives without a pot to ■■■■ in. If you are finding them serious competition with all the indiginous advantages you have, I would suggest you are not trying hard enough.

Wealthy arab countries are rammed full of poor people from South East Asia and the sub continent. You think they are competing with Saudi’s for Saudi jobs? Are they heck as like. They are doing slave jobs for a pittance.

Firstly you don’t half talk bollox , Do these businesses include those who are pulling MP’s strings with dodgy deals? like the Daily mail Group who want to undermine democracy
Upscale at 50 your having a laugh as long as we have lots of people with no wealth the economy is ■■■■■■ tbh , a wealth redistribution is what is needed

1553

Stanley Knife:
Theresa May wins the first round with 50% of the vote and is therefore guaranteed a place in the final two to be voted on by the membership. The interesting part is next. May would rather have Gove on the ticket and attack him as a backstabbing, untrustworthy leaper. The last thing she wants is Leadsom. My money is, literally, on Gove to pull out and his votes to go to Leadsom leaving an all female ticket for the members. Then do I leave my money on a Leadsom win or lay off? Hmmm!

The vote for may was a fix then, like turkey’s voting for xmas those tories

1554

Looooo:
Zerohedge

"As first reported last night, and following up this morning, in an episode painfully reminiscent of the Bear hedge fund “freezes” that preceded the bank’s 2008 collapse and the great financial crisis , first Standard Life halted trading in its property fund, followed hours later by both Aviva and M&G which likewise announced they are suspending trading in their own portfolio funds. And, as Bloomberg summarizes, three of the U.K.’s largest real estate funds have frozen almost 9.1 billion pounds ($12 billion) of assets after Britain’s shock vote to leave the European Union sparked a flurry of redemptions.

These were the first major dominoes to fall as a result of the confusion resulting from the Brexit vote. M&G Investments, Aviva Investors and Standard Life Investments halted withdrawals because they don’t have enough cash to immediately repay investors. About 24.5 billion pounds is allocated to U.K. real estate funds, according to the Investment Association.

The rush by private investors to withdraw money prompted M&G, which held 7.7% in cash before the vote, to suspend its 4.4 billion-pound Property Portfolio fund and Aviva Investors to freeze its 1.8 billion-pound Property Trust on Tuesday. Standard Life halted trading on its 2.9 billion-pound U.K. real estate fund on Monday. The cash position for Aviva and Standard Life’s funds at the end of May was 9.3% and 13.1% respectively.

The market reaction has been swift and brutal, sending stocks of the property-linked asset managers crashing."

They can’t pull investment out quick enough.

Call me a miserable old cynic but I cant help but feel these big companies have no plans to move but are instead just trying to frighten people so that if/when it is announced that Britain will not now be leaving the EU, the masses dont revolt and riot because it’ll be “Oh thank god. Businesses were going to be pulling out. It would have been a disaster”. The government have told them this is the way to get enough people to want to reverse their vote to make us stay. Either that or they are trying to force the Governments hand to give them big tax breaks to “sweeten” them into staying. Either way, it smells a bit fishy to me.
Lets not be naive here, mega companies like BP, Aviva, M&G etc control the government and not the other way around so to say they are pulling out so soon after the vote when article 50 isnt even invoked yet is, to me, some sort of cynical move that is playing on peoples fears right now and they are using it for their own means to get what they want

1555

The-Snowman:
Call me a miserable old cynic but I cant help but feel these big companies have no plans to move but are instead just trying to frighten people so that if/when it is announced that Britain will not now be leaving the EU, the masses dont revolt and riot because it’ll be “Oh thank god. Businesses were going to be pulling out. It would have been a disaster”. The government have told them this is the way to get enough people to want to reverse their vote to make us stay. Either that or they are trying to force the Governments hand to give them big tax breaks to “sweeten” them into staying. Either way, it smells a bit fishy to me.
Lets not be naive here, mega companies like BP, Aviva, M&G etc control the government and not the other way around so to say they are pulling out so soon after the vote when article 50 isnt even invoked yet is, to me, some sort of cynical move that is playing on peoples fears right now and they are using it for their own means to get what they want

No mate, you’re a miserable cynic, I’m an older miserable cynic and agree! :laughing:

1556

Evil8Beezle:

The-Snowman:
Call me a miserable old cynic but I cant help but feel these big companies have no plans to move but are instead just trying to frighten people so that if/when it is announced that Britain will not now be leaving the EU, the masses dont revolt and riot because it’ll be “Oh thank god. Businesses were going to be pulling out. It would have been a disaster”. The government have told them this is the way to get enough people to want to reverse their vote to make us stay. Either that or they are trying to force the Governments hand to give them big tax breaks to “sweeten” them into staying. Either way, it smells a bit fishy to me.
Lets not be naive here, mega companies like BP, Aviva, M&G etc control the government and not the other way around so to say they are pulling out so soon after the vote when article 50 isnt even invoked yet is, to me, some sort of cynical move that is playing on peoples fears right now and they are using it for their own means to get what they want

No mate, you’re a miserable cynic, I’m an older miserable cynic and agree! :laughing:

:open_mouth:

Snowman,Evil and me agree on something.Yes they are hoping to apply pressure to reverse the vote.Given the choice of staying with Le Pen and the AfD and Austrian Freedom etc etc or going with whatever May or Loathsome and Clarke are planning I really hope the zb’s succeed. :smiling_imp: :wink:

1557

Evil8Beezle:
I know things are not going to change overnight if at all, but it’s fair to say nothing was going to change on the current course, as why would it have? What the leavers have done though is give the establishment fat cats and business leaders a bloody nose and something to think about.

I can’t help being satisfied myself with the shock that the Brexit vote has delivered.

But the danger is that the Brexiteer leaders are all centre-right fat cats and business leaders. Boris went to Eton. Farage was an investment banker. The opportunity they sniff, besides personal advancement, is to implement a radical right-wing agenda of further “deregulation” (which is mostly just a byword for undermining market quality thresholds, including wages and working conditions, but also ‘qualities’ like stable banks and security of deposits as opposed to casinos where bankers gamble with ordinary people’s savings then walk away rich from the ashes).

It is also an early swerve to avoid the EU implementing more common rules on things tax evasion, financial mismanagement, and further implementation of the social chapter which would reinforce citizen’s support of the EU (which it badly needs and is the way the wind is blowing) but is essentially a ‘socialist’ measure which is a facet of the original EU project that the rich have managed to suppress until now.

Another element of the radical right agenda is to become more ‘competitive’ relative to other nations, which is really just a byword for war by economic means (which becomes a race to the bottom when other nations respond in kind). Many people can intuit the folly of trying to get ahead by picking other nation’s pockets, and many more know the lessons of the early 20th century, but ideologues often lack both kinds of sense. As Ken Clarke let slip today mockingly, Gove (a Brexiteer) would go to war with three nations at once. But it will be the children of Gove’s supporters who pay the price in blood, if they promote loons like him into power.

It can’t be denied that the class gap in this country is widening, and it’s all very well some people saying that people should upskill, but not everyone can upskill, so where does that leaves the ones that can’t? Should they be just left in the gutter facing worse and worse conditions while society as a whole ignores them? We still have to support them don’t we? Wouldn’t it be better to have a system where people can actually earn a real living wage and not be victims to exploitation, as that’s what we currently have with uncontrolled immigration…

You make a good point, but I would add that we have in fact upskilled - we have the best educated and skilled workforce in the world. Graduates are having to peform circus acts to get entry-level jobs. It’s not just the uneducated that have been left behind, but that educated and skilled workers are also absolutely worse off than their own parents - no job security, no secure homeownership, no pensions, and a wage that doesn’t begin to repay the extra years of education.

What this has exposed is that it was a lie in the first place that the free market would deliver wealth to the masses, if only they upskilled. In fact, by so many people upskilling, the relative value of the skills acquired has evaporated because they are now abundant, and the baseline value of abundant skills (above which rare skills command a premium) has dropped precipitously through the destruction of union power, the deregulation of markets, the refusal of the state to intervene (except to exacerbate the transfer of wealth from poor to rich), and so on.

The solution is for people to start supporting more left-wing measures and left-wing leaders, many of whom are just as sceptical about the EU in its current form but whose remedies are diametrically opposed to those of the radical right (whose agenda of deregulation is basically what caused the banking and debt crises in the first place, and whose austerity has failed to resolve it, but through both the rich have not lost a single penny piece and have in fact gained a greater share of the wealth).

Naomi Klein wrote a book called the Shock Doctrine that basically describes how the rich create crises (not usually by sadistic intent, but as a byproduct of their greed), and in the ensuing popular confusion implement policies which harm the poor further and beget more crises, but in the process they become richer with each iteration of crisis and right-wing ‘solution’ to it (like more deregulation), whereas the correct solutions (like better, permanent regulation) would leave them poorer.

From the point of view of the rich, their “solutions” do work, in the sense that each right-wing solution patently preserves their wealth and even makes them richer (i.e. each time a new crisis starts, they are richer than when the last crisis was solved), but it works by further undermining the increasingly poor majority in society (a step which, each time it is taken, leads to economic shrinkage and reduced effective demand, like that recognised by Henry Ford that reducing his worker’s wages and taking higher rates of profits, would lead to fewer cars being purchased and his factory capacity being under-utilized and therefore a lower volume of profits).

The market upset caused by Brexit will not be the nightmare of the Brexiteers but their dream, because it will provide justification for a change of plan, and cover for the harm their plans will then cause if they are able to get them implemented. Like for adherents of bloodletting, a healthy patient will not tolerate having blood withdrawn, whereas when the patient becomes infected, that provides both a reason to let blood, and a cover for the bodily weakness and harm that results. And if in the weakened and susceptible state, the patient acquires a second underlying disease, more blood can again be let. This might contine to the point of the patient’s expiry, but the uninformed patient never cottons on.

1558

Rjan:
I can’t help being satisfied myself with the shock that the Brexit vote has delivered.

But the danger is that the Brexiteer leaders are all centre-right fat cats and business leaders. Boris went to Eton. Farage was an investment banker. The opportunity they sniff, besides personal advancement, is to implement a radical right-wing agenda of further “deregulation” (which is mostly just a byword for undermining market quality thresholds, including wages and working conditions, but also ‘qualities’ like stable banks and security of deposits as opposed to casinos where bankers gamble with ordinary people’s savings then walk away rich from the ashes).

It is also an early swerve to avoid the EU implementing more common rules on things tax evasion, financial mismanagement, and further implementation of the social chapter which would reinforce citizen’s support of the EU (which it badly needs and is the way the wind is blowing) but is essentially a ‘socialist’ measure which is a facet of the original EU project that the rich have managed to suppress until now.

Another element of the radical right agenda is to become more ‘competitive’ relative to other nations, which is really just a byword for war by economic means (which becomes a race to the bottom when other nations respond in kind). Many people can intuit the folly of trying to get ahead by picking other nation’s pockets, and many more know the lessons of the early 20th century, but ideologues often lack both kinds of sense. As Ken Clarke let slip today mockingly, Gove (a Brexiteer) would go to war with three nations at once. But it will be the children of Gove’s supporters who pay the price in blood, if they promote loons like him into power.

It can’t be denied that the class gap in this country is widening, and it’s all very well some people saying that people should upskill, but not everyone can upskill, so where does that leaves the ones that can’t? Should they be just left in the gutter facing worse and worse conditions while society as a whole ignores them? We still have to support them don’t we? Wouldn’t it be better to have a system where people can actually earn a real living wage and not be victims to exploitation, as that’s what we currently have with uncontrolled immigration…

You make a good point, but I would add that we have in fact upskilled - we have the best educated and skilled workforce in the world. Graduates are having to peform circus acts to get entry-level jobs. It’s not just the uneducated that have been left behind, but that educated and skilled workers are also absolutely worse off than their own parents - no job security, no secure homeownership, no pensions, and a wage that doesn’t begin to repay the extra years of education.

What this has exposed is that it was a lie in the first place that the free market would deliver wealth to the masses, if only they upskilled. In fact, by so many people upskilling, the relative value of the skills acquired has evaporated because they are now abundant, and the baseline value of abundant skills (above which rare skills command a premium) has dropped precipitously through the destruction of union power, the deregulation of markets, the refusal of the state to intervene (except to exacerbate the transfer of wealth from poor to rich), and so on.

The solution is for people to start supporting more left-wing measures and left-wing leaders, many of whom are just as sceptical about the EU in its current form but whose remedies are diametrically opposed to those of the radical right (whose agenda of deregulation is basically what caused the banking and debt crises in the first place, and whose austerity has failed to resolve it, but through both the rich have not lost a single penny piece and have in fact gained a greater share of the wealth).

Naomi Klein wrote a book called the Shock Doctrine that basically describes how the rich create crises (not usually by sadistic intent, but as a byproduct of their greed), and in the ensuing popular confusion implement policies which harm the poor further and beget more crises, but in the process they become richer with each iteration of crisis and right-wing ‘solution’ to it (like more deregulation), whereas the correct solutions (like better, permanent regulation) would leave them poorer.

From the point of view of the rich, their “solutions” do work, in the sense that each right-wing solution patently preserves their wealth and even makes them richer (i.e. each time a new crisis starts, they are richer than when the last crisis was solved), but it works by further undermining the increasingly poor majority in society (a step which, each time it is taken, leads to economic shrinkage and reduced effective demand, like that recognised by Henry Ford that reducing his worker’s wages and taking higher rates of profits, would lead to fewer cars being purchased and his factory capacity being under-utilized and therefore a lower volume of profits).

The market upset caused by Brexit will not be the nightmare of the Brexiteers but their dream, because it will provide justification for a change of plan, and cover for the harm their plans will then cause if they are able to get them implemented. Like for adherents of bloodletting, a healthy patient will not tolerate having blood withdrawn, whereas when the patient becomes infected, that provides both a reason to let blood, and a cover for the bodily weakness and harm that results. And if in the weakened and susceptible state, the patient acquires a second underlying disease, more blood can again be let. This might contine to the point of the patient’s expiry, but the uninformed patient never cottons on.

Blimey more Socialist bs disinformation and diversion.Brexiteers are all supposed fat cats and it’s all a simplistic so called left v so called right issue.

  1. How do you explain both Kate Hoey and Farage standing on the same protectionist ticket regards stopping over supply of the labour market with immigrant labour.Unlike you.

  2. Exactly when did the Labour Party or Europhile Unions ever call for a European wide minimum wage.

  3. Define left.

  4. You’ve stated elsewhere that you view Communist China as corrupt.Yet it supports the same EU agenda that you’re supporting.

  5. How does the indigenous workforce benefit from over supply of the labour market with free movement of immigrant labour from lower wage EU states bearing in mind 3 and 1.

  6. Exactly what ‘Left Wing Measures’ are you referring to.Bearing in mind that protectionism,which is what’s needed,has never been part of any Europhile Labour Party policy as opposed to that of Eurosceptic Shore.To the point where the Labour Party effectively sank its own Nationalisation programme to save uk industry,such as Coal and Automotive,by leaving the door open to not only EU imports but also non EU ones.

The fact is Socialists are just a bunch of lying propaganda merchants out to further their own exploitative ideological agenda.Having set themselves up as the self appointed representatives of the working class which is their bs definition of ‘left’.Whether it be the Soviet Union,or Red China,or Tito’s Yugoslavia or Spinelli’s EU.They really aren’t out to help the indigenous working class of this country.Bearing in mind that Hitler’s ■■■■ Party was just another version of that same malignant ideology based on the same propaganda of being supposedly good for the working class.So much for so called left or so called right in that regard.The fact is it will take a Nationalist solution not a Socialist one to sort out these issues.Nationalist being as left as it gets if the aim is to do what’s good for the working class of this country or in fact all the countries of Europe and the free world.

As for so called fat cats as you’ve stated yourself they are another just as bad bunch of zb wits who are all about short term profit at the expense of Fordist principles.Feel free to explain how Kate Hoey,or Peter Shore before her,or even arguably Farage,fits the description of fat cat in that regard.

On that note you really are avin a larf and should take your Socialist bs and shove it. :imp: :unamused:

1559

Carryfast:

Looooo:
Haven’t you heard CF? Britain is tired of experts. So I guess we can all have a go now.

To be fair what could possibly go wrong with opening the door to Merkel’s immigration plans,going to war with Russia and buying more Kraut cars with borrowed or printed money.

Hopefully the call up for the Russian front will be all immigrants first.That’ll fix it and at least we’ll know for sure which side they were on. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

now that had me falling about laughing :smiley:

1560

Looooo:
Zerohedge

"As first reported last night, and following up this morning, in an episode painfully reminiscent of the Bear hedge fund “freezes” that preceded the bank’s 2008 collapse and the great financial crisis , first Standard Life halted trading in its property fund, followed hours later by both Aviva and M&G which likewise announced they are suspending trading in their own portfolio funds. And, as Bloomberg summarizes, three of the U.K.’s largest real estate funds have frozen almost 9.1 billion pounds ($12 billion) of assets after Britain’s shock vote to leave the European Union sparked a flurry of redemptions.

These were the first major dominoes to fall as a result of the confusion resulting from the Brexit vote. M&G Investments, Aviva Investors and Standard Life Investments halted withdrawals because they don’t have enough cash to immediately repay investors. About 24.5 billion pounds is allocated to U.K. real estate funds, according to the Investment Association.

The rush by private investors to withdraw money prompted M&G, which held 7.7% in cash before the vote, to suspend its 4.4 billion-pound Property Portfolio fund and Aviva Investors to freeze its 1.8 billion-pound Property Trust on Tuesday. Standard Life halted trading on its 2.9 billion-pound U.K. real estate fund on Monday. The cash position for Aviva and Standard Life’s funds at the end of May was 9.3% and 13.1% respectively.

The market reaction has been swift and brutal, sending stocks of the property-linked asset managers crashing."

They can’t pull investment out quick enough.

i am sure you heard the news of the car plant opening with 400 jobs ? now who would of thought a car plant would open up so soon after we vote out ? it seems your doom and gloom is a pile of bollox as per normal

the only people who might get there fingers burned are those who have investments but then for to long the poor who have no investments have been stung and stung hard, more so thanks to the huge numbers of migrants over here earning there crusts
i dont suppose anything matters to the poor who have bugger all but a smile on there faces knowing the others in this world got a dam good kicking where it hurts in there wallets

but its great news and i am sure you will agree that a car plant opens up and jobs are being created more so as you predict such gloomy times which like i said is a load of bollox all it would seem all we care about in this country is getting control of our country back and to put our own people first for once, which fills me full of national pride i must say