In or Out- the EU referendum mega thread

[wiretwister]

Carryfast:

Wiretwister:

Carryfast:
Firstly your son is an ‘emigrant’ from the UK to where exactly and in what sense.We we didn’t have free movement before we joined the EU and we don’t have free movement now in the case of non EU/EEA countries at least if you’re not one of the chosen occupations.Did/Does any of that make either us or those countries ‘prisons’. No it just means what it says you can travel where you like but you ( rightly ) don’t have the right to reside or work for numerous different reasons like quality of life,demographics,and labour market supply.In which an indigenous worker rightly has the right to expect more right to a job in their own country than an immigrant.Although ironically in this case the biggest barriers are between the old colonies where we can’t be considered as immigrants and the home country.No doubt because the whole set up here is a cheap labour scam and/or elitist system.In which manual less academically qualified job opportunities here are sacrificed while the elites don’t give a zb because they have the right to live and work where they want.Hence the alliance of naive young Socialist bolshevik and/or elitist student classes.Who are united in the bs cause of wiping out the nation state in favour of the naive bs idea of a Europe if not a world without borders.

As for the issue of sovereignty.Ironically we’re in the situation of the Leave vote trying to return sovereignty to the National government that as a majority doesn’t want it because it wants that sovereignty handed over to people like Juncker.You couldn’t make this zb up.Unlike you I’ve reached the conclusion that it would actually now be better to remain and for the Nationalist cause to form Nationalist links across Europe to play the Socialists at their own game.What all this is doing is proving the bs of the so called centre ground when it is a clear choice of either a Nationalist Confederal Europe v a centralised Socialist Soviet Federal one.On that note I want my MEP to have the right of National opt out,substitution,and VETO over every decision.Interesting but scary times ahead in that regard.

My son is in the US, has taken American Nationality alongside his British nationality. He went for the love of a good woman.

Thanks for confirming the great advocate of leave has been persuaded that remain is now his preferred choice yet still attacks those who were remain from the get go. Your position changes more than the wind and use a lot of words to say very little, or at least very little that is coherent. I might be tempted to say get knotted but you plainly already have a very tangled thought process.

So let’s assume your son didn’t have the privilege of entry by marriage and was then chucked out of the US on that basis.Does that make all Brits and all Americans so called ‘prisoners’.

But yes I can understand how inconvenient differences like a Confederal Europe v a Federal one would be a mystery to you or maybe not you just don’t want to understand it.Or therefore why I’ve changed my mind in thinking that there’s no way that this argument can be sorted at a UK level.Especially when the whole Brexit project was based on the mission impossible of making a Europhile parliament implement a Eurosceptic referendum vote.Which just proves the despotic undemocratic nature of the Federalist agenda that we’re dealing with.

But yes I can understand why/how such a tactical switch by the Leave agenda,back to a united European one,in playing these Bolshevik zb’s at their own game would be a terrifying prospect to them.So yes hopefully Tharesa May and our Europhile parliament will now be stupid enough to kick Brexit into the long grass.Thereby turning this into the Confederal v Federal pan European argument that it will take to sort it.

My son has American nationality, an American child and another on the way. Why would the US government exile a US national with responsibilities to 2 US nationals not yet at the age of majority?

The federal/confederate difference is understood but I simply do not share your view about which is best or within the realms of likely to happen.

[carryfast]

Wiretwister:
I cast my vote based on MY view, it’s not meant to be for the perception of how anyone else thinks I should. A debate I had with my (remain) daughter and she said that the older generation had sold the younger generation out. My response was the younger generation would have carried the day had they voted in the same percentage as the older generation - the younger generation didn’t care enough to to do all they could to achieve their preferred outcome. What I gave them was the right to hold their leaders to account at elections, and a lesson in what happens if you choose not to use that right or to use it foolishly.

Why does your daughter think that a Federal Europe is a good thing.Let me guess indoctrination with Federalist bs like only the Federal centralised system can create peace.When history proves exactly the opposite in form of the aggression of the Federation against the Nation.

Or why does she think that a Federal Europe,based on dictatorial Communist ideology,which despises the idea of the Nation State,is better than a Confederal Europe based on consent with freedom of National opt out,substitution and VETO among free Nation States.Does she even understand the difference and if not why not.

Why does she think it was ok for the older generation to take us into the thing in the 1975 referendum but not out in the 2016 one.Bearing in mind I wanted to vote out in 1975 but was considered too young at 16.With an in majority obviously made up of the older generations just the same.

[wiretwister]

tommy t:
…snipped to save space…We voted to leave the EU and will be leaving it so MEP’s and that gravy train will end for them in the uk

But had there been powers given back to the citizens and their elected representatives in the European parliament my vote may well have been different. I had no confidence that the EU could/would make that change and no indication from the referendum campaign that efforts were being made to secure them.

[wiretwister]

Carryfast:

Wiretwister:
I cast my vote based on MY view, it’s not meant to be for the perception of how anyone else thinks I should. A debate I had with my (remain) daughter and she said that the older generation had sold the younger generation out. My response was the younger generation would have carried the day had they voted in the same percentage as the older generation - the younger generation didn’t care enough to to do all they could to achieve their preferred outcome. What I gave them was the right to hold their leaders to account at elections, and a lesson in what happens if you choose not to use that right or to use it foolishly.

Why does your daughter think that a Federal Europe is a good thing.Let me guess indoctrination with Federalist bs like only the Federal centralised system can create peace.When history proves exactly the opposite in form of the aggression of the Federation against the Nation.

Or why does she think that a Federal Europe,based on dictatorial Communist ideology,which despises the idea of the Nation State,is better than a Confederal Europe based on consent with freedom of National opt out,substitution and VETO among free Nation States.Does she even understand the difference and if not why not.

Why does she think it was ok for the older generation to take us into the thing in the 1975 referendum but not out in the 2016 one.Bearing in mind I wanted to vote out in 1975 but was considered too young at 16.With an in majority obviously made up of the older generations just the same.

Because she does.

[tommy_t]

Wiretwister:
Most of the things you highlight, and I have some sympathy for issues as you describe them, are the remit of the UK governments, Westminster or devolved, some of whom have an ideological aversion to the NHS and public servants so use austerity as a tool to punish the poor. Did you notice that to motivate the wealthy you reward them well, to motivate the poor you reward them less. But when did we last have a chance to make a change? Answer - last year. What was the outcome? Answer - more of the same. You may say that less than half the people voted for this government and you would be right. When did we have a chance to change the voting system to one that gave a fairer reflection of the countries wishes? Answer - in the last 5 years. What was the outcome? Stay with what we had. The chance to change was in our own gift and, as a nation, we chose not to. I did vote to change but I was in the losing camp on those occasions. This time I was on the winning side as were you so why do you think my different opinions are so wrong, dangerous and selfish. I want people to have a way to hold their leaders to account and change them if they so wish. How they exercise that choice is up to them. Maybe you should direct your venom into the direction of those who didn’t use the best collective tool they have to effect change.

Oh yes that failed idea of an AV system which wouldn’t of really made any changes, What we need is a voting system with out seats , so the outcome is dependant on the number of votes each vote then counts av would not of done that and that is why it failed offer the people a seatless option and see how they vote, probably why scamercon made some changes after wining because in part the people didn’t vote he won due to the safe seats
But none of the 3 main parties have been vote worthy for a long time now, as none would make any real changes , or work for the people, so the people become disillusioned by the tripe they all spout come election time

[carryfast]

Wiretwister:
My son has American nationality, an American child and another on the way. Why would the US government exile a US national with responsibilities to 2 US nationals not yet at the age of majority?

The federal/confederate difference is understood but I simply do not share your view about which is best or within the realms of likely to happen.

Yes we know your son has dual nationality.‘But’ the ordinary foreign national without dual nationality isn’t allowed free movement to reside or work.You said if we did the same that would create a so called ‘bs’ prison.Why would you say that knowing that the US applies exactly the type of system which you say would create a prison here.Sounds like gross hypocrisy ?.

As for Federation v Confederation yes I know you don’t share my view.But strangely you’ve provided no reasoning to back your view.So I’ll ask again.Why do you think that a dictatorial Federal system,based on Communist ideology,involving centralised control with no sovereign state right of opt out,substitution or VETO,is supposedly superior,to a Confederal system,based on consent,in the form of the right of opt out,substitution and VETO,among free Nation States.

[carryfast]

Wiretwister:

Carryfast:

Wiretwister:
I cast my vote based on MY view, it’s not meant to be for the perception of how anyone else thinks I should. A debate I had with my (remain) daughter and she said that the older generation had sold the younger generation out. My response was the younger generation would have carried the day had they voted in the same percentage as the older generation - the younger generation didn’t care enough to to do all they could to achieve their preferred outcome. What I gave them was the right to hold their leaders to account at elections, and a lesson in what happens if you choose not to use that right or to use it foolishly.

Why does your daughter think that a Federal Europe is a good thing.Let me guess indoctrination with Federalist bs like only the Federal centralised system can create peace.When history proves exactly the opposite in form of the aggression of the Federation against the Nation.

Or why does she think that a Federal Europe,based on dictatorial Communist ideology,which despises the idea of the Nation State,is better than a Confederal Europe based on consent with freedom of National opt out,substitution and VETO among free Nation States.Does she even understand the difference and if not why not.

Why does she think it was ok for the older generation to take us into the thing in the 1975 referendum but not out in the 2016 one.Bearing in mind I wanted to vote out in 1975 but was considered too young at 16.With an in majority obviously made up of the older generations just the same.

Because she does.

Yes well she’s wrong isn’t she.Which isn’t surprising bearing in mind the expected closed mind of the average Socialist/Federalist indoctrinated young Brit who isn’t prepared to question it.A bit like the Hitler Youth in that regard.

[wiretwister]

tommy t:

Wiretwister:
Most of the things you highlight, and I have some sympathy for issues as you describe them, are the remit of the UK governments, Westminster or devolved, some of whom have an ideological aversion to the NHS and public servants so use austerity as a tool to punish the poor. Did you notice that to motivate the wealthy you reward them well, to motivate the poor you reward them less. But when did we last have a chance to make a change? Answer - last year. What was the outcome? Answer - more of the same. You may say that less than half the people voted for this government and you would be right. When did we have a chance to change the voting system to one that gave a fairer reflection of the countries wishes? Answer - in the last 5 years. What was the outcome? Stay with what we had. The chance to change was in our own gift and, as a nation, we chose not to. I did vote to change but I was in the losing camp on those occasions. This time I was on the winning side as were you so why do you think my different opinions are so wrong, dangerous and selfish. I want people to have a way to hold their leaders to account and change them if they so wish. How they exercise that choice is up to them. Maybe you should direct your venom into the direction of those who didn’t use the best collective tool they have to effect change.

Oh yes that failed idea of an AV system which wouldn’t of really made any changes, What we need is a voting system with out seats , so the outcome is dependant on the number of votes each vote then counts av would not of done that and that is why it failed offer the people a seatless option and see how they vote, probably why scamercon made some changes after wining because in part the people didn’t vote he won due to the safe seats
But none of the 3 main parties have been vote worthy for a long time now, as none would make any real changes , or work for the people

IIRC it was the linking of the representative to a seat which most people found worth keeping. The regional groupings for MEPs has the weakness in that (in my own location) there are 5 MEPs covering the South West and as such feel no great connection with any of them.

[tommy_t]

Wiretwister:

tommy t:

Wiretwister:
Most of the things you highlight, and I have some sympathy for issues as you describe them, are the remit of the UK governments, Westminster or devolved, some of whom have an ideological aversion to the NHS and public servants so use austerity as a tool to punish the poor. Did you notice that to motivate the wealthy you reward them well, to motivate the poor you reward them less. But when did we last have a chance to make a change? Answer - last year. What was the outcome? Answer - more of the same. You may say that less than half the people voted for this government and you would be right. When did we have a chance to change the voting system to one that gave a fairer reflection of the countries wishes? Answer - in the last 5 years. What was the outcome? Stay with what we had. The chance to change was in our own gift and, as a nation, we chose not to. I did vote to change but I was in the losing camp on those occasions. This time I was on the winning side as were you so why do you think my different opinions are so wrong, dangerous and selfish. I want people to have a way to hold their leaders to account and change them if they so wish. How they exercise that choice is up to them. Maybe you should direct your venom into the direction of those who didn’t use the best collective tool they have to effect change.

Oh yes that failed idea of an AV system which wouldn’t of really made any changes, What we need is a voting system with out seats , so the outcome is dependant on the number of votes each vote then counts av would not of done that and that is why it failed offer the people a seatless option and see how they vote, probably why scamercon made some changes after wining because in part the people didn’t vote he won due to the safe seats
But none of the 3 main parties have been vote worthy for a long time now, as none would make any real changes , or work for the people

IIRC it was the linking of the representative to a seat which most people found worth keeping. The regional groupings for MEPs has the weakness in that (in my own location) there are 5 MEPs covering the South West and as such feel no great connection with any of them.

The seat thing helps them and not the electorate, every vote should count the only real way that this can happen is without seats, then you get true democracy , and people would turn out to vote then, as it would give the lazy arsed MP’s the kick up their ring they have needed for the past god knows how many years, they then would have to engage with their public more who knows they may start to take more notice about issues on a local level, but when if vote i don’t vote for the local MP i vote for the one is is running for PM, local Mp’s to me are a waste of space, utterly useless, as for the local MEP’s i haven’t a scooby who they are or he/she

[carryfast]

Wiretwister:
IIRC it was the linking of the representative to a seat which most people found worth keeping. The regional groupings for MEPs has the weakness in that (in my own location) there are 5 MEPs covering the South West and as such feel no great connection with any of them.

At least the MEP system is a better reflection of proportional vote.While the issue of proportional vote in the national parliament should be dealt with by the combination of referendum and transfer of local policies like planning to local level government like County and Borough.While the PM should be under the duty of implementing referendum decisions with immediate effect and by passing parliament.

direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch

[wiretwister]

tommy t:
The seat thing helps them and not the electorate, every vote should count the only real way that this can happen is without seats, then you get true democracy , and people would turn out to vote then, as it would give the lazy arsed MP’s the kick up their ring they have needed for the past god knows how many years, they then would have to engage with their public more who knows they may start to take more notice about issues on a local level, but when if vote i don’t vote for the local MP i vote for the one is is running for PM

The voting reform referendum would lead me to think that that there is a big minority who see not voting as a vote of protest. Bit like you know what you don’t want but find it harder to identify what you do and accept the consequences that go with it. Personally I would have preferred PR but wasn’t a choice on the ballot paper. I’d also go for maximum of 3 terms serving then move onto something else, a real job, retirement, international peace envoy…oh dear I have a vision of Tony Blair drifting from my deep consciousness and it’s not a happy feeling.

[deeireland]

Anybody shorting the Euro next week?
German banks,and Santander?

[tommy_t]

Wiretwister:

tommy t:
The seat thing helps them and not the electorate, every vote should count the only real way that this can happen is without seats, then you get true democracy , and people would turn out to vote then, as it would give the lazy arsed MP’s the kick up their ring they have needed for the past god knows how many years, they then would have to engage with their public more who knows they may start to take more notice about issues on a local level, but when if vote i don’t vote for the local MP i vote for the one is is running for PM

The voting reform referendum would lead me to think that that there is a big minority who see not voting as a vote of protest. Bit like you know what you don’t want but find it harder to identify what you do and accept the consequences that go with it. Personally I would have preferred PR but wasn’t a choice on the ballot paper. I’d also go for maximum of 3 terms serving then move onto something else, a real job, retirement, international peace envoy…oh dear I have a vision of Tony Blair drifting from my deep consciousness and it’s not a happy feeling.

don’t you mean career politician liar ,puppet &poodle as well as a war criminal and traitor to the British people, i still hate that prick today

[wiretwister]

tommy t:

Wiretwister:

tommy t:
The seat thing helps them and not the electorate, every vote should count the only real way that this can happen is without seats, then you get true democracy , and people would turn out to vote then, as it would give the lazy arsed MP’s the kick up their ring they have needed for the past god knows how many years, they then would have to engage with their public more who knows they may start to take more notice about issues on a local level, but when if vote i don’t vote for the local MP i vote for the one is is running for PM

The voting reform referendum would lead me to think that that there is a big minority who see not voting as a vote of protest. Bit like you know what you don’t want but find it harder to identify what you do and accept the consequences that go with it. Personally I would have preferred PR but wasn’t a choice on the ballot paper. I’d also go for maximum of 3 terms serving then move onto something else, a real job, retirement, international peace envoy…oh dear I have a vision of Tony Blair drifting from my deep consciousness and it’s not a happy feeling.

don’t you mean career politician liar ,puppet &poodle as well as a war criminal and traitor to the British people, i still hate that prick today

Come on Tommy, don’t hold back, get off the fence tell us what you really think

[wiretwister]

Carryfast:

Wiretwister:
My son has American nationality, an American child and another on the way. Why would the US government exile a US national with responsibilities to 2 US nationals not yet at the age of majority?

The federal/confederate difference is understood but I simply do not share your view about which is best or within the realms of likely to happen.

Yes we know your son has dual nationality.‘But’ the ordinary foreign national without dual nationality isn’t allowed free movement to reside or work.You said if we did the same that would create a so called ‘bs’ prison.Why would you say that knowing that the US applies exactly the type of system which you say would create a prison here.Sounds like gross hypocrisy ?.

As for Federation v Confederation yes I know you don’t share my view.But strangely you’ve provided no reasoning to back your view.So I’ll ask again.Why do you think that a dictatorial Federal system,based on Communist ideology,involving centralised control with no sovereign state right of opt out,substitution or VETO,is supposedly superior,to a Confederal system,based on consent,in the form of the right of opt out,substitution and VETO,among free Nation States.

I said that to stop immigration you have to stop emigration i.e. the long term/permanent leaving of the country in which you reside. That is an undisputed truth. It is not however remotely likely to happen because to deny the citizen the right of exit makes that country a “prison”. That is my opinion.

To the federal/confederation conflict. I find the confederate option the least attractive as the disciplines that exist with federal systems seem to me to have better dispute resolutions in so much as the federal government will take the holistic view more likely in the times when the individual nations of the confederation come to an impasse in dispute resolution. Your assertion that a federal system is dictatorial, communist based ideology is IMHO wrong but even if that were the case I can think of at least 1 strong, robust democratic (in the sense that the citizen can hold the highest political power to account)Federation. Have a guess which it is.

[wiretwister]

Carryfast:

Wiretwister:

Carryfast:

Wiretwister:
I cast my vote based on MY view, it’s not meant to be for the perception of how anyone else thinks I should. A debate I had with my (remain) daughter and she said that the older generation had sold the younger generation out. My response was the younger generation would have carried the day had they voted in the same percentage as the older generation - the younger generation didn’t care enough to to do all they could to achieve their preferred outcome. What I gave them was the right to hold their leaders to account at elections, and a lesson in what happens if you choose not to use that right or to use it foolishly.

Why does your daughter think that a Federal Europe is a good thing.Let me guess indoctrination with Federalist bs like only the Federal centralised system can create peace.When history proves exactly the opposite in form of the aggression of the Federation against the Nation.

Or why does she think that a Federal Europe,based on dictatorial Communist ideology,which despises the idea of the Nation State,is better than a Confederal Europe based on consent with freedom of National opt out,substitution and VETO among free Nation States.Does she even understand the difference and if not why not.

Why does she think it was ok for the older generation to take us into the thing in the 1975 referendum but not out in the 2016 one.Bearing in mind I wanted to vote out in 1975 but was considered too young at 16.With an in majority obviously made up of the older generations just the same.

Because she does.

Yes well she’s wrong isn’t she.Which isn’t surprising bearing in mind the expected closed mind of the average Socialist/Federalist indoctrinated young Brit who isn’t prepared to question it.A bit like the Hitler Youth in that regard.

She disagrees with your opinion, and on the EU with my opinion, I’d say that’s what your children do they push boundaries they challenge the customs/traditions/ideas of their parents. They learn from what their parents teach them and test that learning against their experience of life. Then they evolve so as to equip themselves to make their way in the world they inherit. I did not nurture my daughter to be a clone of myself so yes we disagree but I am so glad we can have those disagreements and then come back to dad and daughter. That you think she is somehow wrong I will take as a great compliment because that tells me she is doing her bit to to improve on what we leave her and her peers.

[carryfast]

Wiretwister:
I said that to stop immigration you have to stop emigration i.e. the long term/permanent leaving of the country in which you reside. That is an undisputed truth. It is not however remotely likely to happen because to deny the citizen the right of exit makes that country a “prison”. That is my opinion.

To the federal/confederation conflict. I find the confederate option the least attractive as the disciplines that exist with federal systems seem to me to have better dispute resolutions in so much as the federal government will take the holistic view more likely in the times when the individual nations of the confederation come to an impasse in dispute resolution. Your assertion that a federal system is dictatorial, communist based ideology is IMHO wrong but even if that were the case I can think of at least 1 strong, robust democratic (in the sense that the citizen can hold the highest political power to account)Federation. Have a guess which it is.

Let’s get this right you’re singing the praises of the US model which of course applies one of the strictest immigration policies,at least regarding residency and work permits,in the world.As Dolph could tell you.

As for Federation over Confederation you’re avin a larf.In that firstly we know that the EU has its roots in the ideology of people like Altiero Spinelli.While you’re trying to suggest that the idea of the Federal government being able to dictate policy against the democratic wishes of the Nation State is supposedly a good thing.

As for the bs that the US example proves the case for Federation over Nation in being the so called ultimate form of democracy.

Supposedly to the point of cancelling out the inconvenient facts which show otherwise like what kicked off WW1.

Or the Irish fight for Independence and secession from the UK.

Or the Slovenian and Croatian fight for secession.Against Tito’s Yugoslavia which is the closest example to the founding principles and intent of the EU Federation.

How do you explain this.

thetnm.org/a_word_on_the_uk_ … from_texas

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_stat … _secession

nytimes.com/2013/01/16/us/po … .html?_r=0

The fact is the federal government system denies the fundamental right of free people.That being the right to self determination in the form of the Nation State and in Europe’s case like the US State rights and State sovereignty.Unlike the Confederal System.

This being an example of what happened less than 100 years after the change in the US constitution from that of Confederation of Sovereign free States to Federation of puppet centralised ruled ones.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … _ruins.jpg

Or for that matter Dublin 1916.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Rising

youtube.com/watch?v=tI1KUHewoqA

To which your answer as usual by the Federalists is that the answer to the aggression of the Federation against the Nation is more zb Federation and Federalism.

[carryfast]

Wiretwister:

Carryfast:
Yes well she’s wrong isn’t she.Which isn’t surprising bearing in mind the expected closed mind of the average Socialist/Federalist indoctrinated young Brit who isn’t prepared to question it.A bit like the Hitler Youth in that regard.

She disagrees with your opinion, and on the EU with my opinion, I’d say that’s what your children do they push boundaries they challenge the customs/traditions/ideas of their parents. They learn from what their parents teach them and test that learning against their experience of life. Then they evolve so as to equip themselves to make their way in the world they inherit. I did not nurture my daughter to be a clone of myself so yes we disagree but I am so glad we can have those disagreements and then come back to dad and daughter. That you think she is somehow wrong I will take as a great compliment because that tells me she is doing her bit to to improve on what we leave her and her peers.

She’s not pushing boundaries.She’s just listening to the bs indoctrination of people who would want her to believe that Federalism means order and democracy and freedom and peace.Or that all the wars in European history have been about the aggression of the nation against the federation.When the truth is it’s actually the total opposite.

[tommy_t]

Wiretwister:
I said that to stop immigration you have to stop emigration i.e. the long term/permanent leaving of the country in which you reside. That is an undisputed truth. It is not however remotely likely to happen because to deny the citizen the right of exit makes that country a “prison”. That is my opinion.

Emigration is a different kettle of fish to immigration the brits emigrate , they take their personal wealth to that country with them , migrants come here cap in hand the two should not be confused with each other, or seen as similar, emigraters don’t also just turn up in a country with no idea where they are going to live, they typically will set up/take over businesses and be a positive addition to the local area, unlike the ee that turns up here, but i’m all for stopping all the f1 drivers and pro footballers avoiding taxes here and not helping our economy

[carryfast]

tommy t:

Wiretwister:
I said that to stop immigration you have to stop emigration i.e. the long term/permanent leaving of the country in which you reside. That is an undisputed truth. It is not however remotely likely to happen because to deny the citizen the right of exit makes that country a “prison”. That is my opinion.

Emigration is a different kettle of fish to immigration the brits emigrate , they take their personal wealth to that country with them , migrants come here cap in hand the two should not be confused with each other, or seen as similar

His argument is that a strictly applied immigration control and quota system makes the country a ‘prison’ for emigrants.Which would obviously mean that the US and Canada and Australia are like North Korea for their citizens.