Who’s the swivel-eyed loons now then? 
tommy t:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn_6sU7O43w
Could not have said it better myself
Carryfast:
As for your bs analogy you’ve got the nerve to say that I’m deluded bat zb crazy.
Why?
Why am I deluded for thinking that anything I was told by either camp during this whole debate should be taken with a pinch of salt?
Why am I deluded for not believing everything a politician says?
Why does thinking it is all clever word play on their part make me deluded?
When all is said and done and despite all your own clever word play, the fact remains that they didnt actually say there would be no negotiations did they?
They didnt say there would be no deal making. Even coming back with a maximum number of say 400,000 per year is still technically putting an end to free movement since it is monitored so they can still say they delivered on their promise even though in reality you and I would know they havnt.
Its all word play. You need to accept that and stop believing what they tell you they will do. Its what winds you up so much
The-Snowman:
Carryfast:
As for your bs analogy you’ve got the nerve to say that I’m deluded bat zb crazy.Why?
Why am I deluded for thinking that anything I was told by either camp during this whole debate should be taken with a pinch of salt?
Why am I deluded for not believing everything a politician says?
Why does thinking it is all clever word play on their part make me deluded?
When all is said and done and despite all your own clever word play, the fact remains that they didnt actually say there would be no negotiations did they?
They didnt say there would be no deal making. Even coming back with a maximum number of say 400,000 per year is still technically putting an end to free movement since it is monitored so they can still say they delivered on their promise even though in reality you and I would know they havnt.
Its all word play. You need to accept that and stop believing what they tell you they will do. Its what winds you up so much
Which part of,Leave’s manifesto was to stop free movement and replace it with an Australian type immigration policy and then got a mandate based on that,didn’t you understand.Nor would there be much point in leaving without the return of that essential ingredient in our sovereignty among all the others.
Now if you were to say that mandate isn’t worth a can of beans because it can’t be translated into a parliamentary majority then I’d agree with you.IE remain effectively won it because without a UKIP or Conservative Eurosceptic parliamentary majority remain couldn’t possibly lose.
So there we have it a pointless referendum.The result of which can’t be enforced.With a country now firmly in the grip of a Socialist inspired Federal project along the lines of the former Yugoslavia but on a much bigger scale.
All based on the idea of blackmail,in the form of trade in exchange for Sovereignty,self interest cheap labour exploitation,and stupid naive indoctrinated immature Socialist zb wits.There’s no reason to think that it will take anything less to smash this example in the long term than what it took to smash that one.Although just maybe the German AfD and French FN among others might just be able to win out and create a softer landing that that example.But don’t bet on it bearing in mind the level of ever increasing fanaticism among that naive indoctrinated Socialist Federalist mob.
the morons who have been brainwashed are having a march in London in protest of the referendum result and think they can stop government triggering article 50 Thousands at 'March for Europe' Brexit protest - BBC News
tommy t:
Well if they wanna stay in the EU …they better start packing…lmao
desypete:
it occurred to me after watching some of the news about the battle of the somme 100 years ago and how brave those brits were when they went over the top to meet certain death that those people did so in the belief they were protecting us our mums and dads and they gave there life for our countrydo you think in this day and age that people who live here now and having to suffer they way they do in such poverty with low wages and the general feeling that its never going to change and worse they see people coming here from all over the eu not to escape a war but purely out of greed to better themselves as they can earn 4 times there yearly income over here so there laughing all the way to the bank and its at the natives who live and work here expense as wages are low over here if you live here but high if you come from the eu and the wages are going to stay low the more and more people come here
but anyway the point is do you think in this day and age those who voted to remain would be the type of people who would of done what those guys did 100 years ago and gone over the top to certain death to protect this country ?
why should they as they have no real pride anymore or some even say there ashamed to be a brit after the resultit shows how times have changed but if we were to be going into a war those namby pamby people or the toffs would expect every scum of the north to give up his or her life so they can carry on down south with there lifestyles
i take my hat off to all those people who died it was a hell of a price to pay but they did so for our freedom
funny how we take our freedom with a pinch of salt these days. there should be national pride being taught in our schools let the kids of the future grow up to be firstly proud of there nation
they dont even let the kids compete in sports any more as it might upset or offend and we wonder why our over paid football superstars just dont have it in themlook at wales, look a set of players that have that pride and belief it really can move mountains and the welsh are showing it in spades
but in this country its a dirty word to the polictical correct loonys who have had there day and its produced a nation of shirt lifters
Not wishing to denigrate the memory of any of those young men who died at the Somme there were, if my memory serves nearly 50 nations who had casualties at the Somme not just the “Brits”. The allies had European, Empire (as it was then) soldiers on duty as well.
I do think that patriotism has been tempered but that is likely to be as much to do with the population having many information sources to access if wishing to. It would be a funny kind of bettering yourself if, as you contend, that wages are 4 times higher but living costs are an equal 4 times higher, I suspect that the basics of food and shelter may be higher still but that would be the case of market forces, supply and demand.
Would remain supporters respond to a similar threat in a similar way today? That’s the wrong question as weaponry and tactics have changed. Why on earth would you imagine that someone who voted remain is any less patriotic than someone who voted to leave. They have a alternative view of what patriotism looks like nothing more nothing less.
Once I got past the the 4th paragraph I found your comments both bitter and sad. Your view of the world bears little similarity with mine and I doubt either of us will change our perspectives. Sure we face some big tests and challenges but what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.
Just for clarity I did vote leave! NOT that immigration was front and centre in my reasoning. My son is an emigrant from the UK so by definition he is an immigrant in another. To stop immigration you have to stop emigration. Do you really want that, to turn Britain into a prison colony with no escape? Not every one who voted leave did so with immigration as high on the priority list as democratic process and openness of governance
If the commission president wants to speak on my behalf I want to have a way to hold him to account in a secret ballot.
I want my MEPs to be able to introduce legislation and not have legislation passed to them for ratification.
I want the European parliament to hold the European executive to account for their actions and decisions.
None of these things are in place as far as I know in the European structure though substitute MP for MEP and these are in place at Westminster and the National assemblies of the UK.
This is an article the torygraph was told to pull about May Theresa May is a great self-promoter, but a terrible Home Secretary
Remainers will have to accept that 36% of the electoral register voted to leave.
Even though leave campaign told untruths and remain side scaremongering (but may these have been true?)
Disclosure statement:
Professor Dougan is an employee of the University of Liverpool. He does not work for, undertake paid consultancy for, or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this post.
I believe the government is delaying Art 50 as they will try to work out the best deal for this country.
Nothing simple about UK regaining WTO status post-Brexit
Also how many of us have heard of Art 50 and what it involves before the referendum had taken place?
I didn’t hear about it until a week before.
And as reported on sky news no one had an exit plan!
Wiretwister:
desypete:
it occurred to me after watching some of the news about the battle of the somme 100 years ago and how brave those brits were when they went over the top to meet certain death that those people did so in the belief they were protecting us our mums and dads and they gave there life for our countrydo you think in this day and age that people who live here now and having to suffer they way they do in such poverty with low wages and the general feeling that its never going to change and worse they see people coming here from all over the eu not to escape a war but purely out of greed to better themselves as they can earn 4 times there yearly income over here so there laughing all the way to the bank and its at the natives who live and work here expense as wages are low over here if you live here but high if you come from the eu and the wages are going to stay low the more and more people come here
but anyway the point is do you think in this day and age those who voted to remain would be the type of people who would of done what those guys did 100 years ago and gone over the top to certain death to protect this country ?
why should they as they have no real pride anymore or some even say there ashamed to be a brit after the resultit shows how times have changed but if we were to be going into a war those namby pamby people or the toffs would expect every scum of the north to give up his or her life so they can carry on down south with there lifestyles
i take my hat off to all those people who died it was a hell of a price to pay but they did so for our freedom
funny how we take our freedom with a pinch of salt these days. there should be national pride being taught in our schools let the kids of the future grow up to be firstly proud of there nation
they dont even let the kids compete in sports any more as it might upset or offend and we wonder why our over paid football superstars just dont have it in themlook at wales, look a set of players that have that pride and belief it really can move mountains and the welsh are showing it in spades
but in this country its a dirty word to the polictical correct loonys who have had there day and its produced a nation of shirt liftersNot wishing to denigrate the memory of any of those young men who died at the Somme there were, if my memory serves nearly 50 nations who had casualties at the Somme not just the “Brits”. The allies had European, Empire (as it was then) soldiers on duty as well.
I do think that patriotism has been tempered but that is likely to be as much to do with the population having many information sources to access if wishing to. It would be a funny kind of bettering yourself if, as you contend, that wages are 4 times higher but living costs are an equal 4 times higher, I suspect that the basics of food and shelter may be higher still but that would be the case of market forces, supply and demand.
Would remain supporters respond to a similar threat in a similar way today? That’s the wrong question as weaponry and tactics have changed. Why on earth would you imagine that someone who voted remain is any less patriotic than someone who voted to leave. They have a alternative view of what patriotism looks like nothing more nothing less.
Once I got past the the 4th paragraph I found your comments both bitter and sad. Your view of the world bears little similarity with mine and I doubt either of us will change our perspectives. Sure we face some big tests and challenges but what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.
Just for clarity I did vote leave! NOT that immigration was front and centre in my reasoning. My son is an emigrant from the UK so by definition he is an immigrant in another. To stop immigration you have to stop emigration. Do you really want that, to turn Britain into a prison colony with no escape? Not every one who voted leave did so with immigration as high on the priority list as democratic process and openness of governance
If the commission president wants to speak on my behalf I want to have a way to hold him to account in a secret ballot.
I want my MEPs to be able to introduce legislation and not have legislation passed to them for ratification.
I want the European parliament to hold the European executive to account for their actions and decisions.
None of these things are in place as far as I know in the European structure though substitute MP for MEP and these are in place at Westminster and the National assemblies of the UK.
Firstly your son is an ‘emigrant’ from the UK to where exactly and in what sense.We we didn’t have free movement before we joined the EU and we don’t have free movement now in the case of non EU/EEA countries at least if you’re not one of the chosen occupations.Did/Does any of that make either us or those countries ‘prisons’. No it just means what it says you can travel where you like but you ( rightly ) don’t have the right to reside or work for numerous different reasons like quality of life,demographics,and labour market supply.In which an indigenous worker rightly has the right to expect more right to a job in their own country than an immigrant.Although ironically in this case the biggest barriers are between the old colonies where we can’t be considered as immigrants and the home country.No doubt because the whole set up here is a cheap labour scam and/or elitist system.In which manual less academically qualified job opportunities here are sacrificed while the elites don’t give a zb because they have the right to live and work where they want.Hence the alliance of naive young Socialist bolshevik and/or elitist student classes.Who are united in the bs cause of wiping out the nation state in favour of the naive bs idea of a Europe if not a world without borders.
As for the issue of sovereignty.Ironically we’re in the situation of the Leave vote trying to return sovereignty to the National government that as a majority doesn’t want it because it wants that sovereignty handed over to people like Juncker.You couldn’t make this zb up.Unlike you I’ve reached the conclusion that it would actually now be better to remain and for the Nationalist cause to form Nationalist links across Europe to play the Socialists at their own game.What all this is doing is proving the bs of the so called centre ground when it is a clear choice of either a Nationalist Confederal Europe v a centralised Socialist Soviet Federal one.On that note I want my MEP to have the right of National opt out,substitution,and VETO over every decision.Interesting but scary times ahead in that regard.
Wiretwister:
desypete:
it occurred to me after watching some of the news about the battle of the somme 100 years ago and how brave those brits were when they went over the top to meet certain death that those people did so in the belief they were protecting us our mums and dads and they gave there life for our countrydo you think in this day and age that people who live here now and having to suffer they way they do in such poverty with low wages and the general feeling that its never going to change and worse they see people coming here from all over the eu not to escape a war but purely out of greed to better themselves as they can earn 4 times there yearly income over here so there laughing all the way to the bank and its at the natives who live and work here expense as wages are low over here if you live here but high if you come from the eu and the wages are going to stay low the more and more people come here
but anyway the point is do you think in this day and age those who voted to remain would be the type of people who would of done what those guys did 100 years ago and gone over the top to certain death to protect this country ?
why should they as they have no real pride anymore or some even say there ashamed to be a brit after the resultit shows how times have changed but if we were to be going into a war those namby pamby people or the toffs would expect every scum of the north to give up his or her life so they can carry on down south with there lifestyles
i take my hat off to all those people who died it was a hell of a price to pay but they did so for our freedom
funny how we take our freedom with a pinch of salt these days. there should be national pride being taught in our schools let the kids of the future grow up to be firstly proud of there nation
they dont even let the kids compete in sports any more as it might upset or offend and we wonder why our over paid football superstars just dont have it in themlook at wales, look a set of players that have that pride and belief it really can move mountains and the welsh are showing it in spades
but in this country its a dirty word to the polictical correct loonys who have had there day and its produced a nation of shirt liftersNot wishing to denigrate the memory of any of those young men who died at the Somme there were, if my memory serves nearly 50 nations who had casualties at the Somme not just the “Brits”. The allies had European, Empire (as it was then) soldiers on duty as well.
I do think that patriotism has been tempered but that is likely to be as much to do with the population having many information sources to access if wishing to. It would be a funny kind of bettering yourself if, as you contend, that wages are 4 times higher but living costs are an equal 4 times higher, I suspect that the basics of food and shelter may be higher still but that would be the case of market forces, supply and demand.
Would remain supporters respond to a similar threat in a similar way today? That’s the wrong question as weaponry and tactics have changed. Why on earth would you imagine that someone who voted remain is any less patriotic than someone who voted to leave. They have a alternative view of what patriotism looks like nothing more nothing less.
Once I got past the the 4th paragraph I found your comments both bitter and sad. Your view of the world bears little similarity with mine and I doubt either of us will change our perspectives. Sure we face some big tests and challenges but what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.
Just for clarity I did vote leave! NOT that immigration was front and centre in my reasoning. My son is an emigrant from the UK so by definition he is an immigrant in another. To stop immigration you have to stop emigration. Do you really want that, to turn Britain into a prison colony with no escape? Not every one who voted leave did so with immigration as high on the priority list as democratic process and openness of governance
If the commission president wants to speak on my behalf I want to have a way to hold him to account in a secret ballot.
I want my MEPs to be able to introduce legislation and not have legislation passed to them for ratification.
I want the European parliament to hold the European executive to account for their actions and decisions.
None of these things are in place as far as I know in the European structure though substitute MP for MEP and these are in place at Westminster and the National assemblies of the UK.
your right about 1 point only and that we are worlds apart in our views you highlight just how deep we are divided as i dont understand a word you say in terms of how you put your own people first in this vote ?
so your kids are doing ok are they so that is all that matters ? hardly a long term view for the rest of the kids in this country who can not afford a train fare let alone a ticket to go to anywhere else but stay in this country working low paid jobs etc
try to think of others in this world not just those outside of our country but those who already live here and who can not afford a meal out or a trip to the movies, yet they work long hours, zero hours contracts 2 or 3 days a week work but nothing else, if there lucky they might get a top up in there wages of tax credits but if they pay rent it would soon be eaten up by the council tax and rent reductions of any help they may of got there.
there are two many people living in this type of no win condition but i dont think you can see any of that side of things as life must be good for you so who cares right ?
hgv driving has slipped down the pile in wages we lost the time and half payments that were made after 8 hours, we lost saturday time and a half payments, we lost sunday double time payments, we lost bank holiday payments, we were forced by the eu to work in a new working time directive, we were forced to get a cpc card and have to keep on doing it every 5 years
all these knock on effects sent all the experienced drivers who were used to earning a good crust for the exit and it left a gap were by the only way to fill it was to bring in the cheap workers from overseas as there was no way they would put the money back up and make the job as attractive as it once was as the share holders wouldn’t get paid so much
the nhs has gone the same way our own people train over here then go looking for better pay and conditions out in country’s like the usa or Australia were they dont have free movement of people and you have to have a skill they need to get in.
ask yourself this question
just how come there are so many from the other country’s now working in the nhs ? why isn’t it full of brits still working in the nhs ? why do we seem to do a debt of gratitude for people coming over here to work in the nhs ?
what answer would you come up with ?
cheap labour ? our own people refuse to do the job as its such a low paid job with long hours etc ? its the same now in the hgv game
and you still can think its better to have an open door to everyone even when its clear how damaging its affecting our industry’s
there is a generation that has done ok out of this country there retiring now on good pensions, they have paid off there house they can even look forward to maybe selling up and enjoying life out in spian or france but the next generation behind them and many others will never get that chance they will have to carry on working till they drop
no early retirement for them just a handout to just get by on will be there lot
thankfully i am in the ok side of things but i live in an area that for a lot of people they will have nothing to show at the end of there days and there kids will certainly not be left a few quid when the end comes more likely the kids will have to take out a lend us a quid loan to pay for the funeral the way things are going
so yes we are worlds apart in our views and i would guess our very way of life
If they didn’t have a plan then that would because the never thought the people would vote leave because of the disconnect that has been evident from before the thatcher years it’s been them and us since then, most of them puppets to the elites, bankers ,big corporations ect , for once democracy of people has been shown in the referendum vote , something the ill informed or brainwashed remainer’s want to undermine, and if they got their way (which they wont do) what do they think would happen then? have they got any plans to deal with those who they have denied the democratic rights ?, i would doubt they would have, because they are still disconnected to the people when they took to the streets it wouldn’t be to just protest , there would be riots on a national scale never seen before, strikes the country would come to a standstill
Also another thing with all this they didn’t have a clue how ■■■■■■ the masses are/were with the performance of all 3 of the mainstream parties over the years both tory and new labour sold us out gave powers to the EU limp dums would of been no different had they got the chance
Hence why the underestimated the amount of support Ukip and farage has
desypete:
so yes we are worlds apart in our views and i would guess our very way of life
As I said this is now into the realms of the historic age old Federalist v anti Federalist ( Federal v Confederate ) argument.There’s no room for the centre ground here because they are polar opposites.It’s now just a case of can it by some miracle be settled peacefully or have we got history against us in that regard.Bearing in mind that while those squaddies were dying for a bs cause in France etc over an argument which started over exactly the same issue between Austria and Serbia which we could/should have stayed out of.There misled naive Federalist comrades were busy putting down a Nationalist secessionist uprising in Ireland that lasted about as long which by some miracle the secessionist side ( rightly ) won with no need to start a world war over.
IE hypocritical fighting on the side of the Nation State over the Federation on one hand while trying to enforce the dictatorial Federation on the other.
Swampey2418:
tommy t:
Well if they wanna stay in the EU …they better start packing…lmao
is that all the people they could round up to form a protest ?
not half as many that would of turned up should they not carry out the wishes of the nation that voted to get out and close the doors.
its about time london was given a bloody nose and there screaming shows just how much it has indeed given the political correct a good bloody nose.
now wonder labour is all over the place they really can not believe the small little people who have had to put up and shut up time and time again had finally got a voice and for once was able to show just how they really feel
the best laugh is that no side no matter how hard they try can dress up the results. we voted out of the eu, we voted to end the FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE ( which is all there outraged at)
its a proud day for some to be a brit but not if there a political correct type as its the end of there manipulation tactics, you know when farage was starting to make the news can anyone remember when they political corect lot stated there hate stuff trying to show the guy up as a racist ? remember also how it backfired as the public took no notice and voted ukip all over in the euro vote
that to me shown the public were now saying loud and clear that they will not listen anymore to the racist claims if anyone dares to stand up and be counted for the ordinary working man or women who comes from this country
did anyone see the behaviour of the mps at pm question time when the ukip guy stood up to speak ? all the boos and barracking that went on and the speaker had to bring the house to order ?
thatis how the mps really think about the ordinary man or women on the street that voted to leave. i hope you guys when it comes to general election time and they need your vote ask your mp was they one of the ones who booed the single mp who tried to speak in the house
there like a gang of political correct bullys all turning on that one mp but then that is how its has really been for all these years only this time the little guy has had his day
desypete:
Swampey2418:
tommy t:
Well if they wanna stay in the EU …they better start packing…lmao
is that all the people they could round up to form a protest ?
not half as many that would of turned up should they not carry out the wishes of the nation that voted to get out and close the doors.its about time london was given a bloody nose and there screaming shows just how much it has indeed given the political correct a good bloody nose.
now wonder labour is all over the place they really can not believe the small little people who have had to put up and shut up time and time again had finally got a voice and for once was able to show just how they really feelthe best laugh is that no side no matter how hard they try can dress up the results. we voted out of the eu, we voted to end the FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE ( which is all there outraged at)
its a proud day for some to be a brit but not if there a political correct type as its the end of there manipulation tactics, you know when farage was starting to make the news can anyone remember when they political corect lot stated there hate stuff trying to show the guy up as a racist ? remember also how it backfired as the public took no notice and voted ukip all over in the euro vote
that to me shown the public were now saying loud and clear that they will not listen anymore to the racist claims if anyone dares to stand up and be counted for the ordinary working man or women who comes from this countrydid anyone see the behaviour of the mps at pm question time when the ukip guy stood up to speak ? all the boos and barracking that went on and the speaker had to bring the house to order ?
thatis how the mps really think about the ordinary man or women on the street that voted to leave. i hope you guys when it comes to general election time and they need your vote ask your mp was they one of the ones who booed the single mp who tried to speak in the house
there like a gang of political correct bullys all turning on that one mp but then that is how its has really been for all these years only this time the little guy has had his day
And the little guy will win a lot more in the future too, government has to start doing what they are supposed to do work for the people and stop being puppets for the elites, maybe we should hold an anti PC vote next ? i’m sick of that nonsense as well
desypete:
Swampey2418:
tommy t:
Well if they wanna stay in the EU …they better start packing…lmao
is that all the people they could round up to form a protest ?
not half as many that would of turned up should they not carry out the wishes of the nation that voted to get out and close the doors.its about time london was given a bloody nose and there screaming shows just how much it has indeed given the political correct a good bloody nose.
now wonder labour is all over the place they really can not believe the small little people who have had to put up and shut up time and time again had finally got a voice and for once was able to show just how they really feelthe best laugh is that no side no matter how hard they try can dress up the results. we voted out of the eu, we voted to end the FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE ( which is all there outraged at)
its a proud day for some to be a brit but not if there a political correct type as its the end of there manipulation tactics, you know when farage was starting to make the news can anyone remember when they political corect lot stated there hate stuff trying to show the guy up as a racist ? remember also how it backfired as the public took no notice and voted ukip all over in the euro vote
that to me shown the public were now saying loud and clear that they will not listen anymore to the racist claims if anyone dares to stand up and be counted for the ordinary working man or women who comes from this countrydid anyone see the behaviour of the mps at pm question time when the ukip guy stood up to speak ? all the boos and barracking that went on and the speaker had to bring the house to order ?
thatis how the mps really think about the ordinary man or women on the street that voted to leave. i hope you guys when it comes to general election time and they need your vote ask your mp was they one of the ones who booed the single mp who tried to speak in the house
there like a gang of political correct bullys all turning on that one mp but then that is how its has really been for all these years only this time the little guy has had his day
Unfortunately not exactly.Remain have actually won this one because unless UKIP can make a parliamentary majority out of less than 18 million votes we’re stuffed.
This can now only realistically be settled on a European level on the basis of a Confederal Europe v a Federal one.These Federalist Bolshevik zb’s will then just turn their attentions from calling Farage a ■■■■ to everyone in Europe who dares to stand against them. 
Carryfast:
:evil:Wiretwister:
…snipped to save space…Firstly your son is an ‘emigrant’ from the UK to where exactly and in what sense.We we didn’t have free movement before we joined the EU and we don’t have free movement now in the case of non EU/EEA countries at least if you’re not one of the chosen occupations.Did/Does any of that make either us or those countries ‘prisons’.
As for the issue of sovereignty.Ironically we’re in the situation of the Leave vote trying to return sovereignty to the National government that as a majority doesn’t want it because it wants that sovereignty handed over to people like Juncker.You couldn’t make this zb up.Unlike you I’ve reached the conclusion that it would actually now be better to remain and for the Nationalist cause to form Nationalist links across Europe to play the Socialists at their own game.What all this is doing is proving the bs of the so called centre ground when it is a clear choice of either a Nationalist Confederal Europe v a centralised Socialist Soviet Federal one.On that note I want my MEP to have the right of National opt out,substitution,and VETO over every decision.Interesting but scary times ahead in that regard.
My son is in the US, has taken American Nationality alongside his British nationality. He went for the love of a good woman.
Thanks for confirming the great advocate of leave has been persuaded that remain is now his preferred choice yet still attacks those who were remain from the get go. Your position changes more than the wind and use a lot of words to say very little, or at least very little that is coherent. I might be tempted to say get knotted but you plainly already have a very tangled thought process.
Wiretwister:
desypete:
it occurred to me after watching some of the news about the battle of the somme 100 years ago and how brave those brits were when they went over the top to meet certain death that those people did so in the belief they were protecting us our mums and dads and they gave there life for our countrydo you think in this day and age that people who live here now and having to suffer they way they do in such poverty with low wages and the general feeling that its never going to change and worse they see people coming here from all over the eu not to escape a war but purely out of greed to better themselves as they can earn 4 times there yearly income over here so there laughing all the way to the bank and its at the natives who live and work here expense as wages are low over here if you live here but high if you come from the eu and the wages are going to stay low the more and more people come here
but anyway the point is do you think in this day and age those who voted to remain would be the type of people who would of done what those guys did 100 years ago and gone over the top to certain death to protect this country ?
why should they as they have no real pride anymore or some even say there ashamed to be a brit after the resultit shows how times have changed but if we were to be going into a war those namby pamby people or the toffs would expect every scum of the north to give up his or her life so they can carry on down south with there lifestyles
i take my hat off to all those people who died it was a hell of a price to pay but they did so for our freedom
funny how we take our freedom with a pinch of salt these days. there should be national pride being taught in our schools let the kids of the future grow up to be firstly proud of there nation
they dont even let the kids compete in sports any more as it might upset or offend and we wonder why our over paid football superstars just dont have it in themlook at wales, look a set of players that have that pride and belief it really can move mountains and the welsh are showing it in spades
but in this country its a dirty word to the polictical correct loonys who have had there day and its produced a nation of shirt liftersNot wishing to denigrate the memory of any of those young men who died at the Somme there were, if my memory serves nearly 50 nations who had casualties at the Somme not just the “Brits”. The allies had European, Empire (as it was then) soldiers on duty as well.
I do think that patriotism has been tempered but that is likely to be as much to do with the population having many information sources to access if wishing to. It would be a funny kind of bettering yourself if, as you contend, that wages are 4 times higher but living costs are an equal 4 times higher, I suspect that the basics of food and shelter may be higher still but that would be the case of market forces, supply and demand.
Would remain supporters respond to a similar threat in a similar way today? That’s the wrong question as weaponry and tactics have changed. Why on earth would you imagine that someone who voted remain is any less patriotic than someone who voted to leave. They have a alternative view of what patriotism looks like nothing more nothing less.
Once I got past the the 4th paragraph I found your comments both bitter and sad. Your view of the world bears little similarity with mine and I doubt either of us will change our perspectives. Sure we face some big tests and challenges but what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.
Just for clarity I did vote leave! NOT that immigration was front and centre in my reasoning. My son is an emigrant from the UK so by definition he is an immigrant in another. To stop immigration you have to stop emigration. Do you really want that, to turn Britain into a prison colony with no escape? Not every one who voted leave did so with immigration as high on the priority list as democratic process and openness of governance
If the commission president wants to speak on my behalf I want to have a way to hold him to account in a secret ballot.
I want my MEPs to be able to introduce legislation and not have legislation passed to them for ratification.
I want the European parliament to hold the European executive to account for their actions and decisions.
None of these things are in place as far as I know in the European structure though substitute MP for MEP and these are in place at Westminster and the National assemblies of the UK.
We voted to leave the EU and will be leaving it so MEP’s and that gravy train will end for them in the uk
Wiretwister:
Carryfast:
Firstly your son is an ‘emigrant’ from the UK to where exactly and in what sense.We we didn’t have free movement before we joined the EU and we don’t have free movement now in the case of non EU/EEA countries at least if you’re not one of the chosen occupations.Did/Does any of that make either us or those countries ‘prisons’.As for the issue of sovereignty.Ironically we’re in the situation of the Leave vote trying to return sovereignty to the National government that as a majority doesn’t want it because it wants that sovereignty handed over to people like Juncker.You couldn’t make this zb up.Unlike you I’ve reached the conclusion that it would actually now be better to remain and for the Nationalist cause to form Nationalist links across Europe to play the Socialists at their own game.What all this is doing is proving the bs of the so called centre ground when it is a clear choice of either a Nationalist Confederal Europe v a centralised Socialist Soviet Federal one.On that note I want my MEP to have the right of National opt out,substitution,and VETO over every decision.Interesting but scary times ahead in that regard.
My son is in the US, has taken American Nationality alongside his British nationality. He went for the love of a good woman.
Thanks for confirming the great advocate of leave has been persuaded that remain is now his preferred choice yet still attacks those who were remain from the get go. Your position changes more than the wind and use a lot of words to say very little, or at least very little that is coherent. I might be tempted to say get knotted but you plainly already have a very tangled thought process.
So let’s assume your son didn’t have the privilege of entry by marriage and was then chucked out of the US on that basis.Does that make all Brits and all Americans so called ‘prisoners’.
But yes I can understand how inconvenient differences like a Confederal Europe v a Federal one would be a mystery to you or maybe not you just don’t want to understand it.Or therefore why I’ve changed my mind in thinking that there’s no way that this argument can be sorted at a UK level.Especially when the whole Brexit project was based on the mission impossible of making a Europhile parliament implement a Eurosceptic referendum vote.Which just proves the despotic undemocratic nature of the Federalist agenda that we’re dealing with.
But yes I can understand why/how such a tactical switch by the Leave agenda,back to a united European one,in playing these Bolshevik zb’s at their own game would be a terrifying prospect to them.So yes hopefully Tharesa May and our Europhile parliament will now be stupid enough to kick Brexit into the long grass.Thereby turning this into the Confederal v Federal pan European argument that it will take to sort it.
desypete:
…snipped to save space…
your right about 1 point only and that we are worlds apart in our views you highlight just how deep we are divided as i dont understand a word you say in terms of how you put your own people first in this vote ?
so your kids are doing ok are they so that is all that matters ? hardly a long term view for the rest of the kids in this country who can not afford a train fare let alone a ticket to go to anywhere else but stay in this country working low paid jobs etctry to think of others in this world not just those outside of our country but those who already live here and who can not afford a meal out or a trip to the movies, yet they work long hours, zero hours contracts 2 or 3 days a week work but nothing else, if there lucky they might get a top up in there wages of tax credits but if they pay rent it would soon be eaten up by the council tax and rent reductions of any help they may of got there.
there are two many people living in this type of no win condition but i dont think you can see any of that side of things as life must be good for you so who cares right ?
hgv driving has slipped down the pile in wages we lost the time and half payments that were made after 8 hours, we lost saturday time and a half payments, we lost sunday double time payments, we lost bank holiday payments, we were forced by the eu to work in a new working time directive, we were forced to get a cpc card and have to keep on doing it every 5 years
all these knock on effects sent all the experienced drivers who were used to earning a good crust for the exit and it left a gap were by the only way to fill it was to bring in the cheap workers from overseas as there was no way they would put the money back up and make the job as attractive as it once was as the share holders wouldn’t get paid so muchthe nhs has gone the same way our own people train over here then go looking for better pay and conditions out in country’s like the usa or Australia were they dont have free movement of people and you have to have a skill they need to get in.
ask yourself this question
just how come there are so many from the other country’s now working in the nhs ? why isn’t it full of brits still working in the nhs ? why do we seem to do a debt of gratitude for people coming over here to work in the nhs ?what answer would you come up with ?
cheap labour ? our own people refuse to do the job as its such a low paid job with long hours etc ? its the same now in the hgv game
and you still can think its better to have an open door to everyone even when its clear how damaging its affecting our industry’sthere is a generation that has done ok out of this country there retiring now on good pensions, they have paid off there house they can even look forward to maybe selling up and enjoying life out in spian or france but the next generation behind them and many others will never get that chance they will have to carry on working till they drop
no early retirement for them just a handout to just get by on will be there lotthankfully i am in the ok side of things but i live in an area that for a lot of people they will have nothing to show at the end of there days and there kids will certainly not be left a few quid when the end comes more likely the kids will have to take out a lend us a quid loan to pay for the funeral the way things are going
so yes we are worlds apart in our views and i would guess our very way of life
I cast my vote based on MY view, it’s not meant to be for the perception of how anyone else thinks I should. A debate I had with my (remain) daughter and she said that the older generation had sold the younger generation out. My response was the younger generation would have carried the day had they voted in the same percentage as the older generation - the younger generation didn’t care enough to to do all they could to achieve their preferred outcome. What I gave them was the right to hold their leaders to account at elections, and a lesson in what happens if you choose not to use that right or to use it foolishly.
You talk about the folks on zero hours contracts but working long hours? What is it zero hours or long hours. If zero hours then what is stopping people looking for alternative employment, making the most of the skills they have or getting better, more relevant skills. If they can’t afford to eat out well in my early years nor could I, it’s partly why I appreciate these things now that I can do them. Do you really think you should dictate to any one what they should care about, what others should prioritise? Do you really think anyone who takes a different opinion to yours is somehow a lesser person because that would imply that you see yourself as superior to those whose views you do not share?
Most of the things you highlight, and I have some sympathy for issues as you describe them, are the remit of the UK governments, Westminster or devolved, some of whom have an ideological aversion to the NHS and public servants so use austerity as a tool to punish the poor. Did you notice that to motivate the wealthy you reward them well, to motivate the poor you reward them less. But when did we last have a chance to make a change? Answer - last year. What was the outcome? Answer - more of the same. You may say that less than half the people voted for this government and you would be right. When did we have a chance to change the voting system to one that gave a fairer reflection of the countries wishes? Answer - in the last 5 years. What was the outcome? Stay with what we had. The chance to change was in our own gift and, as a nation, we chose not to. I did vote to change but I was in the losing camp on those occasions. This time I was on the winning side as were you so why do you think my different opinions are so wrong, dangerous and selfish. I want people to have a way to hold their leaders to account and change them if they so wish. How they exercise that choice is up to them. Maybe you should direct your venom into the direction of those who didn’t use the best collective tool they have to effect change.