In or Out- the EU referendum mega thread

Carryfast:
You’re pushing at an open door Dolph.Which part of you’ve won anyway didn’t you understand.Cameron isn’t going to take on Merkel because he’s a Europhile Federalist POS just like her.No one is going to take on Cameron or Merkel because the country has lost its bottle on one side regards throwing the zb out and taking control of the process ( that’s even if Gove or BoJo even had any bottle or let alone possibly even on the Leave side to start with ) and the equally Federalist/Socialist zb’s as he is,if not moreso,on the other side ( Corbyn,Farron,Sturgeon ).

Shame for your lot that they didn’t have these type of zb’s in office here 1939.Because then your lot and your Kraut mates would have been marching down the mall before we’d even bothered with trying to save France let alone Poland in 1940. :unamused:

So there we have it Britain defeated by a Polish born commy Kraut and Bulgaria.It took a while but you got there in the end.But only with a lot of help from our own side and a country that’s probably more communist now than Italy and Yugoslavia were combined in 1945. :open_mouth: :laughing: How long before we see a German led East Euro manned EU federal army stationed here to stop any possible remaining Nationalist secessionist tendency.

Having said that maybe Trump will hopefully get in and the yanks will save us from the Krauts and their axis ally’s plan yet again. :unamused:

Someone’s been on the Tizer! :open_mouth:

Evil8Beezle:
Dolph - I’m not reading anything into any of that pal, as it’s posturing. It’s what everyone does when entering into a battle…
They all have to talk tough, as they need to reassure their member states and their electorate, just as our PM’s would, if we had any! :laughing:

The only thing that is certain at the current time, is that they really, really, REALLY want us to get on with it! :stuck_out_tongue:
It’s almost like they don’t like the uncertainty, perhaps they are scared further cracks in the EU crap pile will start to show■■?

As I said you’d need to understand the European mindset and wildly varying nature of the agenda between just 500 miles or so North South East or West.In Bulgaria’s case you’re dealing with a bunch of nutters who were historically allied with the nazis against the Slovenians and the Serbs with some of the Croats but not all and the Bosnian Muslims.While Italy just staggered and still does between Communist to Fascist depending on the weather and location.With Slovenia and Croatia etc all then setting up a similar to this one Socialist inspired Federation that then imploded into a war of secession.Then they all got together again in the similar EU Federation because the payback looked good ( all paid for by us ).

On that note ‘don’t’ underestimate what Dolph is saying when he says these nutters mean business.While we’re facing them with …Cameron or is it BoJo or Gove. :open_mouth: :laughing: With Corbyn,Farron and Strurgeon and a bunch of young naive indoctrinated wannabee Bolsheviks all calling for surrender and to join them all again as soon as possible. :open_mouth: You couldn’t make this zb up. :frowning:

When if it was me I’d tell them zb article 50 it’s a matter of national security we’re out as of now.We’ve put a block on all further German imports and an oil embargo on the zb’s.What are they going to do about it.

Evil8Beezle:

Carryfast:
You’re pushing at an open door Dolph.Which part of you’ve won anyway didn’t you understand.Cameron isn’t going to take on Merkel because he’s a Europhile Federalist POS just like her.No one is going to take on Cameron or Merkel because the country has lost its bottle on one side regards throwing the zb out and taking control of the process ( that’s even if Gove or BoJo even had any bottle or let alone possibly even on the Leave side to start with ) and the equally Federalist/Socialist zb’s as he is,if not moreso,on the other side ( Corbyn,Farron,Sturgeon ).

Shame for your lot that they didn’t have these type of zb’s in office here 1939.Because then your lot and your Kraut mates would have been marching down the mall before we’d even bothered with trying to save France let alone Poland in 1940. :unamused:

So there we have it Britain defeated by a Polish born commy Kraut and Bulgaria.It took a while but you got there in the end.But only with a lot of help from our own side and a country that’s probably more communist now than Italy and Yugoslavia were combined in 1945. :open_mouth: :laughing: How long before we see a German led East Euro manned EU federal army stationed here to stop any possible remaining Nationalist secessionist tendency.

Having said that maybe Trump will hopefully get in and the yanks will save us from the Krauts and their axis ally’s plan yet again. :unamused:

Someone’s been on the Tizer! :open_mouth:

Unfortunately probably closer to the truth than you’d ever know.

Dipper_Dave:

Carryfast:
My point is we haven’t triggered it which means that we ain’t going anywhere yet.While yes clever people like Ken Clarke and Corbyn and Sturgeon and the LibDems are just waiting to take advantage of that fact.Because so long as we remain in it and haven’t formally handed in our notice then remain MP’s are still in with a chance of keeping us in it. :unamused:

On that note as I said what the zb has Canada got to do with us seceding from the EU. :unamused:

Are you saying that you haven’t researched this subject much and are just winging it like the rest of us and are basing your posts on predefined political stereotypes to put people in whichever box you feel fits.

Further research would reveal that the key points at play are how if and when we fit back into the single market and money market passport system. Thus by comparing already negotiated models allowing countries to trade with Europe be it Norway, Canada etc we can see how the UK may develop it’s own model for inclusion.

Our bargaining strength will of course be dependant on not only our new interpretation of free movement and how we implement it but also what we bring to the table in the first place.

Like all negotiations there will need to be comprimises but in the end when each side feel they have a bad deal but CBA to moan about it anymore negotiations will be complete.

The political party du jour will be mindful that the judgement of whether they have done a good job or not will be deceided by the electorate at election time.

As far as feeling this could all be reversed well that’s very unlikely as even after less than a week things are starting to settle down a bit, plus everybody loves some drama.
The test will come if and when we start to feel it in our pockets.

Cut the bs.As I said why would a net importer of EU products have to jump through hoops or be subject to conditions like ‘free movement’ to maintain access to the EU ‘single market’ just as before.Possibly even with some re alignment of the trade deal in our favour.None of which should take any longer than the article 50 notice period.

Realistically if we haven’t got the bottle to leave at the soonest point in time and say access to the single market as an EFTA member without being an EEA member,or it’s a full on trade war,then don’t bother we’re wasting our time.Let Corbyn and friends reverse the vote. :unamused:

Dolph:
Someone was talking how Germans wouldn’t dare because of their car industry, others like Carryfast said you cant do trade war with us.
Well put your money where your mouth is Davve, sign the document and deposit it in EU, instead Cameron resign in order to prolong the exit, creating uncertainty in UK and EU. :imp:
Good luck with trade negotiations CF, you gonna need it…

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, has dismissed Boris Johnson’s proposal that Britain might enjoy access to the European single market and restrict immigration at the same time, telling German MPs the UK would enjoy no special favours.

In a speech to the Bundestag, Merkel said negotiations over Britain’s post-EU future would not be a “cherry-picking exercise”. To applause, she warned that the UK government should be under no illusions over the decisions that would be made.

“We will make sure that negotiations will not be carried out as a cherry-picking exercise. There must be and there will be a palpable difference between those countries who want to be members of the European family and those who don’t,” she said.

Merkel said the UK could enjoy access to the single market only if it accepted the “four basic European freedoms – that of people, goods, services and capital”.

The European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, urged the UK to clarify its position on Brexit.

The leaders of Germany, France and Italy have ruled out any chance of informal negotiations on the UK’s future relationship with the bloc until it gives formal notification of its intention to leave, with a consensus emerging that this should happen in the autumn.
Other politicians have insisted that Britain would receive a worse deal outside the EU. The Dutch finance minister, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the chair of the eurozone finance ministers’ council, said Farage was “living in his own world” if he thought the UK would now get an improved trade agreement.
Dijsselbloem added: “He [Farage] thinks Britain is still a world-spanning empire and can dictate everything, and it’s not going to happen like that.”

theguardian.com/world/2016/ … any-brexit

IF you start from a base assumption that they are ALL wrong and have been about EVERYthing - it all rather looks like the tide is going out around various politician’s legs - and Farage is the only one wearing any trunks!

How can one country be accused of “dictating anything” when we’re talking about nation break-up rather than expansion, imperial powers, empire itself, and of course - wars?

Tell old Junker to Let my People Go.
It’s shocking to me that we apparently have a whole younger generation of lefties now who think that being a leftie trumps being in the democratic majority about anything.

Corbyn supporters even today - have been banging on about “OOhh but we gave him a 59% ballot in the first round!” and ignore a 4:1 ousting from his own parliamentary colleages FFS…

That’s like saying that “Red Rum didn’t really lose to L’escargot in 1975 - because he won the year before… and the year before that.” In racing we call that a “Turned over favourite”. In racing we call last Friday’s referendum result a “Turned Over Favourite”. The only people who got paid for backing Red Rum in 1975 - were those who backed it each way - and even then, they didn’t quite get their money back. Punters got over it, and were rewarded one more time a couple of years later… The result stood though!

The day of Cameron has passed. The day of Corbyn has also passed… That day was the day Cameron announced the referendum - at which point Corbyn could have got behind the Brexit campaign, either ending up backing the winner - OR getting Cameron to withdraw the referendum - either way Corbyn would have plunged into a bucket of crap, and come out smelling of roses, whilst Cameron fell into a bucket of ■■■■ - and came out sucking his thumb!

Bad and Worse… Not looking good for our two main parties - is it?
Even now - remainers continue to obstruct any half-baked (as they may well be) plans to “get things back together again”.

It’s time the lefties were taught a lesson about newly-revived Western Democracy that they’ll never forget… That a high water mark of 49% in polls will never get them elected as a government again!. :smiling_imp:

I’d rather have Boris - a guy I’ve never voted for win a snap election for the Tories - a party I’ve never voted for in government than any idiot who thinks it’s cool to be taking all our home rights away at home whilst ■■■■■■■ our taxes away abroad somewhere.

52% of us have had enuff… Now stop moaning, and get back to work!

Winseer:
Corbyn supporters even today - have been banging on about “OOhh but we gave him a 59% ballot in the first round!” and ignore a 4:1 ousting from his own parliamentary colleages FFS…

That’s like saying that “Red Rum didn’t really lose to L’escargot in 1975 - because he won the year before… and the year before that.” In racing we call that a “Turned over favourite”. In racing we call last Friday’s referendum result a “Turned Over Favourite”. The only people who got paid for backing Red Rum in 1975 - were those who backed it each way - and even then, they didn’t quite get their money back. Punters got over it, and were rewarded one more time a couple of years later… The result stood though!

The day of Cameron has passed. The day of Corbyn has also passed… That day was the day Cameron announced the referendum - at which point Corbyn could have got behind the Brexit campaign, either ending up backing the winner - OR getting Cameron to withdraw the referendum - either way Corbyn would have plunged into a bucket of crap, and come out smelling of roses, whilst Cameron fell into a bucket of ■■■■ - and came out sucking his thumb!

Bad and Worse… Not looking good for our two main parties - is it?
Even now - remainers continue to obstruct any half-baked (as they may well be) plans to “get things back together again”.

It’s time the lefties were taught a lesson about newly-revived Western Democracy that they’ll never forget… That a high water mark of 49% in polls will never get them elected as a government again!. :smiling_imp:

I’d rather have Boris - a guy I’ve never voted for win a snap election for the Tories - a party I’ve never voted for in government than any idiot who thinks it’s cool to be taking all our home rights away at home whilst ■■■■■■■ our taxes away abroad somewhere.

52% of us have had enuff… Now stop moaning, and get back to work!

:open_mouth:

There’s a flaw in that plan.

The Corbynite Bolsheviks think that they can have a re match this time in parliament and win it by ‘persuading’ the Labour vote wot won it to change its mind by shouting louder at them and the scary thing is they might just be right.In which case it doesn’t matter whether the Labour MPS don’t like Corbyn just so long as most/enough of them want to stay in the EU like Corbyn does. :bulb:

While Cameron couldn’t give a zb about UKIP and Farage any longer because the Conservative eurosceptic vote seems to have collapsed if it ever existed in which case Cameron is probably now wondering why he bothered.IE the Heath factor in the form of ideological federalism is still as strong as ever among the Cons just as it sank Powell.While all Cameron needs to do is hold onto article 50 while he decides wether to join Corbyn and Sturgeon and Farron in the nuclear option or go for Leave Light in the form of swapping EU for EEA. :bulb: :frowning:

S’not gonna happen. Corbyn is toast, and so are the Tories if they don’t go the obvious way here.

I don’t think the Tories are that stupid - I can’t say the same of Labour though. :unamused:

What’s most important over the next few days is "Who the hell is going to be a chancellor that both sides of the Tory party will accept? - and be accepted by both Remain and Brexit MPs across party lines as well?

Being a remainer himself - the first whiff of “punishment” will have everyone regret letting him stay.

Johnson for PM with a very docile Osbourne as Chancellor may work, but I wonder if Boris should replace Osbourne in the money department, and leave the path open to Teresa May to actually be the PM…

There isn’t enough time to engineer Craig wotsits hasty resignation from South Thanet - and shoehorn Farage in place - so he can be chancellor with his metal exchange experience of the financial markets and all… :frowning:

So today the EU meets and we are not there.

We.Are.Not.At.The.Table.

We are NOT going to get all the benefits of being a member of the club without paying any of the membership fees.

The result is NOT going to be overturned. We have made our bed and now we are going to have to lie in it.

Now the reality of the misleading promises and the worrying consequences are sinking in, it is no good complaining about the people who are trying to reverse the result. They won’t succeed. Instead, concentrate your energy on holding the career politicians and Media who brought us to this situation to account.

Most of this is the consequence of the Daily Mail style hysterical misreporting of how the EU actually works. Whipping people into a froth with made up stories about bendy bananas. People forget the advantages membership brings, sorry, brought us. We will probably notice them more by their absence when they are gone.

Yes just as your view of it is Socialist.As I said that worked well then.As for so called ‘moderately’ Socialist yeah right like wanting to be in a Federation founded in part by an Italian Communist.

The fact is there is no moderately Socialist.There is only Socialist which means ideologically opposed to the nation state or Nationalist which is ideologically opposed to Socialism for that reason.Which is why Shore and Heffer and even Benn were sidelined in favour of Callaghan and the rest is history because what they were proposing was ideologically Nationalist.Which they didn’t even realise themselves but Wilson obviously did among others.Not surprising with Wilson being on the Commy watch list.

With yet another zb wit Socialist running the Labour Party again now and his Bolshevik supporters trying to over turn a democratic vote because it goes against their Soviet Federalist ideology.Similar to the JNA Socialist scum who tried to stop the secession of Slovenia and Croatia together with the resulting casualties.Which is probably the inevitable similar fate of the EU.

There is not only Socialist or Federalist. That’s like saying there are only black and white but no grey. Pretty sure most peoples politics fall somewhere in the grey area like I’ve said before, somewhere just left or right of centre. I was using Socialist in it’s usually accepted sense of meaning left wing politics not as in it’s full on dictionary meaning. To clarify let’s call it Social Equality which can be within a nation state or without.

The basis of democracy as I’m sure you know is I don’t agree with what you say but I’ll vigorously defend your right to say it.
You’d do well to remember that.

Well, as they say a week is a long time in politics! This time last week I was argueing for the Remainers but today I’m urging the country to just get on with the Brexit plan. The only flaw there seems to be there was NO plan.

Last week it looked like the Brexit campaign was pretty muck akin to English nationalism, which turned out to be a correct assumption. This week however it looks like the whole mess may be playing into the hands of my country’s nationalism. As I’m a Remainer who democratically accepted the result I’d just like to say to the whole cast of this comically sorry mess we’re in, just bloody get on with it!

As a matter of interest was anyone on here who spoke up for or lobbied for the Out campaign told there was no plan ?

Whilst my main motivation to vote leave was democracy, I do accept that the only way it can work is if free movement is stopped. The only way to get that is a bespoke deal. They won’t offer it easy, so the best thing to do is threaten to pull up the drawbridge and revert to wto. Wait for them to come to us. EFTA is no good, as we will still have free movement. We will never get a raise in wages with free movement.

On a side note, who’s everyone backing for pm? I wanted Chris Grayling but it looks like he hasn’t got the stomach for the fight. I’m backing Andrea Leadson, a calm and measured head and I know she won’t buckle on free movement

All this posturing and dictating to by the EU is their reaction to an unexpected result from the UK referendum.
They are not used to being denied or disobeyed, so they are trying to save a bit of face by a display of all this bravado.
They are ■■■■ scared that Brexit will trigger off an East European style revolt and breakdown, resulting in a complete collapse of their corrupt organisation, so they are attempting to display a deterrent to other potential exit states.

As soon as the dust settles a proper grown up negotiation will take place, as they know trade and relations with the UK is slso beneficial to them, so do not be fooled by all their bluster.

None of them! Only Tory I’ve any time for is Ruth Davidson.

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Munchkin:
None of them! Only Tory I’ve any time for is Ruth Davidson.

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Well it’s highly unlikely that she would get it, maybe there to make up the numbers but not the right person to lead the country imo.

Carryfast:
Cut the bs.As I said why would a net importer of EU products have to jump through hoops or be subject to conditions like ‘free movement’ to maintain access to the EU ‘single market’ just as before.Possibly even with some re alignment of the trade deal in our favour.None of which should take any longer than the article 50 notice period.

It’s quite simple really, either we aren’t as dominant in trade as we like to think we are or we are asserting the strongest bargaining position possible.
Free movement is a given but on our terms, why would we want to lose something that benefits us. It won’t be as free as before but there will be a level of free movement albeit on our terms (or so we hope).

Article 50 will be held off till the next leader is in place, then if it’s triggered at all hopefully our leave requirements will be on the table.

Even though the EU says negotiations can’t take place before A50 is activated in reality negotiations have started albeit out in the open with public posturing for the world to see.
I’ve used the chess analogy before but that is what we have now, pawns are being moved before the key players take their place.
To activate A50 to soon is akin to moving ourselves into a ‘check’ position.

Or if you prefer we are at the precum stage of negotiating before the main thrusts.

Looking ahead at who might be best to spearhead these talks, think I’m going for Theresa May.

Looooo:
So today the EU meets and we are not there.

We.Are.Not.At.The.Table.

We are NOT going to get all the benefits of being a member of the club without paying any of the membership fees.

Obviously, as a Remainer, you see this scenario as a disadvantage. As a Leaver I see it as an advantage and an enormous benefit.

Did anyone else hear call me Daves slip of the tongue, “the people I’ve been working for…with the last 6 years” :open_mouth: :laughing:

Munchkin:
As a matter of interest was anyone on here who spoke up for or lobbied for the Out campaign told there was no plan ?

It was always known that Farage & co had a set of plans, it was always assumed that Vote Leave had plans.

Well it’s highly unlikely that she would get it, maybe there to make up the numbers but not the right person to lead the country imo.

Just saying she’s the only one I’ve time for.
All the rest are as bad as each other so not really bothered!

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Just been hearing some of the potential candidates for the next Tory leader/PM.
The way I see it is that an esetntial qualification for this is that they MUST have been pro Brexit pre referendum, in order to take us forward in that spirit after the Country’s decision, … the obvious one being Boris.
If a pro Remain candidate gets in, it just makes a further farce of the whole situation.
It’s a bit like Alan Shearer becoming the manager of Sunderland, in a football analogy. :smiley: