In or out of he eu referendum

[carryfast]

eddie snax:

Carryfast:
Let’s get this right.We’re expected to believe,that an unsigned for,non existent amendment,to all the relevant treaties,regarding giving us special Confederal status,within an obviously Federal European governmental system,will deliver all that.

While stopping ‘further’ integration isn’t the same thing as ‘returning’ powers ‘previously’ ‘already’ lost as advertised.While ‘if’ your claims are true how does a Union that supposedly allows any member to do what you’ve described not fit the definition of a Confederal arrangement anyway…:

I have never argued against confederalism, I have merely pointed out My belief that we should remain as part of the EU, if we can hold an autonomous position within the EU then all the better.
I also believe that, other Nations within the EU, whom don’t hold the weight of power that the UK does, are looking to see how this all pans out, and might choose to force the issue for themselves, I’m primarily thinking Denmark and Sweden, both have not yet adopted the Euro, despite reaching the parameters to accept monetary union.
This is one of the reasons that I believe that the EU will make future trade deal negotiations drag on for years, stifling growth here, and there, as a way of putting off other smaller countries (economies) from going the way of Brexit.
I think that the Architects of the European project, would accept, a group of countries being part of the EU, but autonomous from much of its legislation/laws/rules. In order to keep the wider project on the road, the sometimes talked of 2 speed Europe.

Just to save you the effort, that is a kind of amalgam of Federal, and Confederal, but unlike the US, this eutopia will be achieve without bloodshed

As I said it seems clear that whatever so called ‘deal’ Cameron did it wasn’t subject to any signed amendment to all the treaties regarding our status at least.IE it doesn’t exist nothing has changed.

As for an ‘amalgam’ of Federal and Confederal that’s just another impossible contradiction in that it can only be one or the other.The two ideas being totally incompatible and mutually exclusive.As the Americans found out in 1861 and to date.On that note the message to the in campaign is be careful what you wish for.

washingtontimes.com/news/201 … as-too-mu/

[eddie_snax]

Carryfast:
As for an ‘amalgam’ of Federal and Confederal that’s just another impossible contradiction in that it can only be one or the other.The two ideas being totally incompatible /

Plenty of countries through out the world, have autonomous regions, we even have that in the UK, so why cant it be up scaled to a nation state level, within a regional membership body, such as the EU.

This is 2016, not 1861

[carryfast]

eddie snax:

Carryfast:
As for an ‘amalgam’ of Federal and Confederal that’s just another impossible contradiction in that it can only be one or the other.The two ideas being totally incompatible /

Plenty of countries through out the world, have autonomous regions, we even have that in the UK, so why cant it be up scaled to a nation state level, within a regional membership body, such as the EU.

This is 2016, not 1861

Because the terms of the treaties of Rome,Maastricht,and Lisbon don’t provide for autonomy to nation state level IE right of State opt out and substitution etc over all of the decision making process of the Group.With our ongoing membership of the EU still being subject to the terms of those treaties without any signed amendment releasing us from them.Not surprisingly because any such amendment would by definition then make the EU a Confederate Constitution.

As for it being 2016 not 1861 I wouldn’t want to bet on Obama not sending the US army in if Texas for example went for secession now just as in 1861.

[winseer]

As per the arguments about the “EU not being to blame if you’re life has sucked for the past decade”…

Do you have austerity in your life right now?
Yes.
Is it because of this government?
Yes.
Do you feel that this government would be weakened by us leaving the EU?
Yes.
Would you get the government you originally wanted if we left?
Yes.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
As per the arguments about the “EU not being to blame if you’re life has sucked for the past decade”…

Do you have austerity in your life right now?
Yes.
Is it because of this government?
Yes.
Do you feel that this government would be weakened by us leaving the EU?
Yes.
Would you get the government you originally wanted if we left?
Yes.

It’s a bit more complicated than that.An out vote would put in the essential foundations that we’d need,for the type of change in economic policy that it would take,to end austerity.Austerity basically being the inevitable effects of a Post Fordist economy and race to the bottom free markets and resulting trade deficit,lack of economic growth and loss of tax revenues.On that note we’d only get the government we need with either a move by the Cons against free markets and towards Fordist Capitalism and Protectionism.Or a move by Labour away from Socialism and towards same.Farage having already shown that he can think along protectionist lines regards the labour market in the form of at least stopping the cheap east euro labour supply and in regard to cheap/dumped Chinese steel imports.None of which can possibly take place while we remain in the EU.

[eddie_snax]

Winseer:
As per the arguments about the “EU not being to blame if you’re life has sucked for the past decade”…

Do you have austerity in your life right now?
Yes.
Is it because of this government?
Yes.
Do you feel that this government would be weakened by us leaving the EU?
Yes.
Would you get the government you originally wanted if we left?
Yes.

The thing is, you assume that, if we leave the government will fall, were as more likely the leadership will fall. In this scenario, we end up with a Johnson government, and without a popular vote to put him there. I know that the Tories didn’t have the majority of the populous behind them, but they did get past the post, and that for now is how we elect. Ofcoarse, had we opted for AV when that was offered during the coalition, then we would have a much different political landscape, but we are where we are.

[winseer]

No, the Cameron & Osbourne government will fall. Now that Theresa May has jumped the wrong way as well, she’s a gonner on Brexit too.

In the other camp, we’d have Boris able to select all the Europhobes for his first cabinet - and Yes, that was the government I wanted when I voted UKIP last year.

It’s important that Staunch Corbynites also see this referendum as an opportunity to remove Cameron and Osbourne - and use their vote tactically, rather than to please their leader.

[eddie_snax]

Winseer:
No, the Cameron & Osbourne government will fall. Now that Theresa May has jumped the wrong way as well, she’s a gonner on Brexit too.

In the other camp, we’d have Boris able to select all the Europhobes for his first cabinet - and Yes, that was the government I wanted when I voted UKIP last year.

It will still be a tory Government, and if you believe that the Cameron Osbourne scenario is responsible for your austerity, then don’t expect any change from the Johnson regime. Whether that be a pseudo UKIP cabinet or a right wing Tory cabinet

[carryfast]

Winseer:
No, the Cameron & Osbourne government will fall. Now that Theresa May has jumped the wrong way as well, she’s a gonner on Brexit too.

In the other camp, we’d have Boris able to select all the Europhobes for his first cabinet - and Yes, that was the government I wanted when I voted UKIP last year.

It’s important that Staunch Corbynites also see this referendum as an opportunity to remove Cameron and Osbourne - and use their vote tactically, rather than to please their leader.

Boris really isn’t as bright as some would like to think in addition to the question as to where he actually stands IE staunch Cameron supporter one day pretend anti EU the next.

While a Kate Hoey led Labour,David Davis led Conservative and Farage UKIP coalition/alliance would be as good as it gets.As for Labour voters if the aim is to create an environment of British jobs for British workers,in a trading regime which protects their living standards and a tax regime which stops austerity,Corbyn’s pro EU socialist ideology won’t fix that.

[carryfast]

eddie snax:
It will still be a tory Government, and if you believe that the Cameron Osbourne scenario is responsible for your austerity, then don’t expect any change from the Johnson regime. Whether that be a pseudo UKIP cabinet or a right wing Tory cabinet

Let’s just say the present status quo,of the CBI and Chinese Communist Party and Merkel led shower of zb in the form of Cameron and Osborne,is about as ‘right wing’ as it gets.I’d guess that putting Boris into the out side is the Cameronite Cons insurance policy in that regard.

[eddie_snax]

Carryfast:

eddie snax:
It will still be a tory Government, and if you believe that the Cameron Osbourne scenario is responsible for your austerity, then don’t expect any change from the Johnson regime. Whether that be a pseudo UKIP cabinet or a right wing Tory cabinet

Let’s just say the present status quo,of the CBI and Chinese Communist Party and Merkel led shower of zb, is about as ‘right wing’ as it gets…

MMM, now you really are just having ago for the sake of having ago

Carryfast:
Let’s just say the present status quo, of Cameron and Osborne,is about as ‘right wing’ as it gets.I’d guess that putting Boris into the out side is the Cameronite Cons insurance policy in that regard.

Although Cameron and Osbourne are Tory, I don’t think they are nowhere near as right wing as many true blue Tories would want to see.

Boris a stalking horse, in position at Camerons reguest, common behave

Carryfast:
Boris really isn’t as bright as some would like to think in addition to the question as to where he actually stands IE staunch Cameron supporter one day pretend anti EU the next.

While a Kate Hoey led Labour,David Davis led Conservative and Farage UKIP coalition/alliance would be as good as it gets.As for Labour voters if the aim is to create an environment of British jobs for British workers,in a trading regime which protects their living standards and a tax regime which stops austerity,Corbyn’s pro EU socialist ideology won’t fix that.

Don’t know about Kate Hoey, but Farage and Davis are about as big business globalists as it gets, so where does that fit in with your contention about a change from free market thinking.

Carryfast:
It’s a bit more complicated than that.An out vote would put in the essential foundations that we’d need,for the type of change in economic policy that it would take,to end austerity.Austerity basically being the inevitable effects of a Post Fordist economy and race to the bottom free markets and resulting trade deficit,lack of economic growth and loss of tax revenues.On that note we’d only get the government we need with either a move by the Cons against free markets and towards Fordist Capitalism and Protectionism.Or a move by Labour away from Socialism and towards same.:

Labour has already tried that, in the form of Blair. Though I haven’t read all the tsunami of Daily Mail and Daily Express tory columns, I’m fairly confident, that none of them, will be talking about protectionism, the whole stance behind the OUT campaign(from an economic policy viewpoint), as I understand, to get away from the restrictions of the EU, in order to be able to trade freely with the rest of the world, on our terms, and with the EU on our terms. No talk of a move away from free market capitalism

Carryfast:
.Farage having already shown that he can think along protectionist lines regards the labour market in the form of at least stopping the cheap east euro labour supply and in regard to cheap/dumped Chinese steel imports.None of which can possibly take place while we remain in the EU.

And don’t think that Farage campaigning against free movement off people(as a mechanism to supress wages), and cheap/dumped Chinese steel imports, to be anything other than opportunism, which is fine, as long as you take it at face value. Remember, Farage a former City trader, free market ethics run deep through his core

[carryfast]

eddie snax:

Carryfast:

eddie snax:
It will still be a tory Government, and if you believe that the Cameron Osbourne scenario is responsible for your austerity, then don’t expect any change from the Johnson regime. Whether that be a pseudo UKIP cabinet or a right wing Tory cabinet

Let’s just say the present status quo,of the CBI and Chinese Communist Party and Merkel led shower of zb, is about as ‘right wing’ as it gets…

MMM, now you really are just having ago for the sake of having ago

Carryfast:
Let’s just say the present status quo, of Cameron and Osborne,is about as ‘right wing’ as it gets.I’d guess that putting Boris into the out side is the Cameronite Cons insurance policy in that regard.

Although Cameron and Osbourne are Tory, I don’t think they are nowhere near as right wing as many true blue Tories would want to see.

Boris a stalking horse, in position at Camerons reguest, common behave

Carryfast:
Boris really isn’t as bright as some would like to think in addition to the question as to where he actually stands IE staunch Cameron supporter one day pretend anti EU the next.

While a Kate Hoey led Labour,David Davis led Conservative and Farage UKIP coalition/alliance would be as good as it gets.As for Labour voters if the aim is to create an environment of British jobs for British workers,in a trading regime which protects their living standards and a tax regime which stops austerity,Corbyn’s pro EU socialist ideology won’t fix that.

Don’t know about Kate Hoey, but Farage and Davis are about as big business globalists as it gets, so where does that fit in with your contention about a change from free market thinking.

Carryfast:
It’s a bit more complicated than that.An out vote would put in the essential foundations that we’d need,for the type of change in economic policy that it would take,to end austerity.Austerity basically being the inevitable effects of a Post Fordist economy and race to the bottom free markets and resulting trade deficit,lack of economic growth and loss of tax revenues.On that note we’d only get the government we need with either a move by the Cons against free markets and towards Fordist Capitalism and Protectionism.Or a move by Labour away from Socialism and towards same.:

Labour has already tried that, in the form of Blair. Though I haven’t read all the tsunami of Daily Mail and Daily Express tory columns, I’m fairly confident, that none of them, will be talking about protectionism, the whole stance behind the OUT campaign(from an economic policy viewpoint), as I understand, to get away from the restrictions of the EU, in order to be able to trade freely with the rest of the world, on our terms, and with the EU on our terms. No talk of a move away from free market capitalism

Carryfast:
.Farage having already shown that he can think along protectionist lines regards the labour market in the form of at least stopping the cheap east euro labour supply and in regard to cheap/dumped Chinese steel imports.None of which can possibly take place while we remain in the EU.

And don’t think that Farage campaigning against free movement off people(as a mechanism to supress wages), and cheap/dumped Chinese steel imports, to be anything other than opportunism, which is fine, as long as you take it at face value. Remember, Farage a former City trader, free market ethics run deep through his core

Saying that Cameron and Osborne are a CBI and Chinese Communist Party led shower of zb isn’t just ‘having a go for the sake of having a go’.It’s ( a lot ) more accurate than your In campaign propaganda,of trying to dress up the inconvenient contradiction in Farage’s obviously protectionist stance regards cheap East Euro labour and Chinese steel imports,as ‘opportunism’,just because it doesn’t fit your globalist free marketeer accusation script.On that note no the CBI are full on supporters of the Cameron pro EU agenda and certainly no friend of Farage.That seems to prove with who and where the big business agenda accusation truly belongs.

ibtimes.co.uk/nigel-farage-u … cbi-519404

theguardian.com/business/201 … referendum

As for your idea of Blair being a so called supporter of Protectionism and Fordism.Based on exactly what example.

On that basis you’re going to need to provide something a lot better and more truthful,regarding who and where,the real accusation of big business led shower of zb sits.While on current evidence it’s that Davis,Hoey and Farage alliance which occupies the ‘left’ side of this argument not Cameron and Osborne.Assuming that left means what’s best for the British working class and not the CBI and Chinese Communist Party.

On that note the CBI’s stated solution to the trade deficit issue is yet more of the same old bs and mission impossible of increasing exports to match imports. Against a background of saturated if not self sufficient export markets let alone the idea of Germans buying British not German. As opposed to what’s needed in cutting the import bill to a level that matches exports at least in respect of anything which we can produce for ourselves.

[winseer]

Corbyn bangs on today about “a bonfire of worker’s rights if we leave the EU”.

One big problem with some of the EU regulations there to “benefit” workers as they stand - is they are not rigidly enforced. For example, A driver is supposed to be on a maximum 48 hour week, and be on duty no longer than 10 hours on a shift that counts as “overnight”. So… What the firms do is count all parked up in a queue time, break time, and loading time when the driver is not the loader - as “not towards those 48 hours or 10 hour shifts”. The result? It’s common in Transport now for a full time driver to expect hours upto 15 hours per day three times per week, and another 3 shifts of maximum 13 hours. That’s an 84 hour week folks - putting us drivers not only on more hours than a junior doctor - but like a junior doctor, ,we’re so half asleep by day four of these “maxed out” shifts - that the public and driver safety are going to be seriously affected for the worse. BUT “it’s only 48 hours on paper” so the EU says it’s OK. Try and tell your firm “I’m not working more than 10 hours on a shift ever, and more than 48 hours in a week ever” and you’ll be given the boot, especially if you are on a zero hours contract.

The only backup you have - is finding a more benevolent employer who won’t take the ■■■■ as in the perhaps extreme examples I’ve given above.

We all know though that there ARE drivers out there to this day “at work” for 70-90 hours per week nonetheless…

[juddian]

How can any politician in this country stand up and without any hint of shame bleat on about workers rights.

They abandoned the British working class completely, and their party under the leadership of the Blair regime presided over the flooding of our country with millions of unskilled workers which has kept their job prospects and wages depressed for nigh on 20 years.
Ably assisted by the new liberal social democrat party led by our own Cast Iron Cameron.

This age of career politician do irony in a big way, but it aint very bloody funny for millions who’ll be week to week and day to day and in the hands of arse wipe money lenders, and struggle all their lives.

I spit on career politicians and their lackeys and the ■■■■■■■■ and lies they spout.
Quite how any working person can vote for these shysters of the three so called main parties will baffle me to me box.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Corbyn bangs on today about “a bonfire of worker’s rights if we leave the EU”.

The only thing that Corbyn is bothered about is his bs Socialist ideology in which no surprise the zb wit sees Merkel as an ally.

On that note ‘workers rights’,like the difference between the strength of British Unions in 1972 v 1984 when the TUC joined Thatcher and the CBI to throw the NUM and with it the Union movement to the wolves.No surprise that they’d now do the same thing regarding the national interest.

[bluey_circles]

Winseer:
Corbyn bangs on today about “a bonfire of worker’s rights if we leave the EU”.

One big problem with some of the EU regulations there to “benefit” workers as they stand - is they are not rigidly enforced. For example, A driver is supposed to be on a maximum 48 hour week, and be on duty no longer than 10 hours on a shift that counts as “overnight”. So… What the firms do is count all parked up in a queue time, break time, and loading time when the driver is not the loader - as “not towards those 48 hours or 10 hour shifts”. The result? It’s common in Transport now for a full time driver to expect hours upto 15 hours per day three times per week, and another 3 shifts of maximum 13 hours. That’s an 84 hour week folks - putting us drivers not only on more hours than a junior doctor - but like a junior doctor, ,we’re so half asleep by day four of these “maxed out” shifts - that the public and driver safety are going to be seriously affected for the worse. BUT “it’s only 48 hours on paper” so the EU says it’s OK. Try and tell your firm “I’m not working more than 10 hours on a shift ever, and more than 48 hours in a week ever” and you’ll be given the boot, especially if you are on a zero hours contract.

The only backup you have - is finding a more benevolent employer who won’t take the ■■■■ as in the perhaps extreme examples I’ve given above.

We all know though that there ARE drivers out there to this day “at work” for 70-90 hours per week nonetheless…

I agree, it is too important a job from a safety point of view for drivers to be pushed to the max - but how do you think being out of the EU will help ? I’m not so sure it will
I’m mostly minded to vote to leave, but two of the more appealing aspects of being within the EU for me are, better protection for the environment and better protection for workers rights.

[winseer]

Corbyn talks about ending Austerity. How TF can we do that if we’re giving all our hard-earned away overseas?

We don’t owe the rest of the world anything at all. Let charity begin at home - and get the UK back into the black before giving pound one more to some (often hostile) foreign country for what exactly?

We have perma-austerity because there’s nothing left for us.
Public services are swamped under by those who’ve never paid in, and many never will.
Jobs kept at rock-bottom pay scales - because there’s always another immigrant who can be shoehorned into a minimum wage job, providing there are tax credits there to keep them in Britain in digs, or sheds with beds when working in the country…

Cameron could raise taxes, but the electorate will do anything to help a foreigner - except pay more taxes to pay for it!
Osbourne promised to get the deficit down - but blew it when he didn’t cut the pay of bodies like the Judiciary, high-ranking forces personnel, and of course Westminster.
Now he borrows ever more money like it’s going out of style and makes Gordon Brown like remarkably “Prudent” by comparison.

People yearn for the “good old days” when at least Gordon Brown’s borrowings were spent on creating British jobs in the public sector… Better than donating it to the Indian Space Programme, the EU, and China who really don’t need our cash right now.

[carryfast]

Bluey Circles:
two of the more appealing aspects of being within the EU for me are, better protection for the environment and better protection for workers rights.

‘Better protection for the environment’ in this case translates as us adhering to rules made the Germans etc while the Germans subsidise their industrial competitiveness by opening new coal fired power stations.

As for workers rights you mean like no EU wide and enforced minimum wage which makes cheap East Euro labour more attractive to exploitative organisations like the CBI and transfer of western capital for investment in East Euro industry.Or movement ( economic migration ) of East Euro labour thereby distorting western developed labour markets.As for the road transport industry worker’s rights like all the above and lifting of cabotage restrictions adding to the issues and ‘the right’ to have knackered drivers running around working 15 hour shifts.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Corbyn talks about ending Austerity. How TF can we do that if we’re giving all our hard-earned away
Osbourne promised to get the deficit down -

We won’t get the deficit down while the economists are in denial about the link between trade deficits and national debt.While we won’t sort the trade deficit unless we get our industrial strength up and running again on the basis that we can’t export our way back into trade balance.In which case it’s obvious that EU membership is a lose lose situation in that regard in being one big foreign aid scam to benefit Germany and US geopolitical aims in Eastern Europe.

[juddian]

Carryfast:

Winseer:
Corbyn talks about ending Austerity. How TF can we do that if we’re giving all our hard-earned away
Osbourne promised to get the deficit down -

We won’t get the deficit down while the economists are in denial about the link between trade deficits and national debt.While we won’t sort the trade deficit unless we get our industrial strength up and running again on the basis that we can’t export our way back into trade balance.In which case it’s obvious that EU membership is a lose lose situation in that regard in being one big foreign aid scam to benefit Germany and US geopolitical aims in Eastern Europe.

That’s one of the best and most concise on the money posts you’ve ever put up.

Spot on CF.
An economy now based primarily on the housing bubble which goes hand in hand with constant high immigration to operate a service industry (a contradiction in terms if ever i heard one)…what could possibly go wrong.