In or out of he eu referendum

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
341

Dolph:
What actually UK produce that is an interest of the rest of the world, if you ditch EU. What US, China, Brazil, Australia be interested into?
After Brexit will UK be interesting place to invest money? Will UK remain as leading European financial market? Will foreign companies stay or move to mainland EU? Will EU citizens be kicked out? What will happen to their saving, years of contribution, property and vice versa, what will happen to all Brits living in EU? What will happen to all the EU treaties and rules UK is signatory to? Will UK have to follow EU rules in order to trade with the union? Will UK remain to use EU port without paying hefty tax/tariffs etc?
What will actually happen, does any one care to explain this to the people in UK?

CF you seems to be obsessed by the Germans, are you jealous of them or something? :laughing:

Firstly the domestic market is more important to us than the outdated idea that we can export our way out of debt.In a world in which the historic export markets are already saturated by their own domestic industries or foreign competition.

Why do you think we would/should give a zb about the EU treaties if/when we’re out of the Federalist scam.IE they’d no longer apply to us in any way shape or form.Now let me guess in your typically Federalist view you think that should result in sanctions taken against us.

As for the Germans not jealous.Just the realistic view that they are and always will be a rival to us.With a dangerous Federalist entitlement to right to rule tendency and who don’t do fairness in their dealings with foreign countries.Who’ll take advantage of any perceived or real weakness in their rivals.On that note I’m with the Greeks on that view obviously not the Bulgarians who’ve historically shown where they stand at least twice in that regard. :bulb:

342

muckles:

Carryfast:

gazsa401:
I’m in the Labour Out campaign and I can’t wait to vote

I’d guess that being on the same side as historic figures like Shore,Heffer and Benn is something to be proud of in that regard. :bulb: :wink:

But aren’t they Old School Socialists?

No.Socialists who were well on the road to making the transition from Socialist to Nationalist.Probably having made that transition in the case of Shore. :bulb:

343

Carryfast:

muckles:

Carryfast:

gazsa401:
I’m in the Labour Out campaign and I can’t wait to vote

I’d guess that being on the same side as historic figures like Shore,Heffer and Benn is something to be proud of in that regard. :bulb: :wink:

But aren’t they Old School Socialists?

No.Socialists who were well on the road to making the transition from Socialist to Nationalist. :bulb:

Oh I see, did they know that?

344

muckles:
Oh I see, did they know that?

In the case of Shore probably.In the case of myself at least not at the time while Benn and Heffer probably never did realise it.

345

Carryfast:

muckles:
Oh I see, did they know that?

In the case of Shore probably.In the case of myself at least not at the time while Benn and Heffer probably never did realise it.

Wow gets complicated,
Can you go back and edit every post where you’ve put Socialist and change it to Bad Socialist, so us simple truck drivers don’t miss-understand your great writing, otherwise thing might get quoted out of context.

346

muckles:
Wow gets complicated,
Can you go back and edit every post where you’ve put Socialist and change it to Bad Socialist, so us simple truck drivers don’t miss-understand your great writing, otherwise thing might get quoted out of context.

Don’t blame me if the in campaign’s understanding,of the difference between Nationalist ideology,as opposed to Socialist,is as bad as their understanding of basic maths.You can include all those mug German voters and supporters who believed the lie that Nationalism and Socialism can be put together. :unamused:

On that note their is no ‘good’ Socialism.There’s only Hitler’s version or Stalin’s version or Mao’s version or also now Merkel’s and Junker’s and Hollande’s etc version.No surprise that Corbyn is on the side of the In campaign as part of that agenda.

Unlike Shore,Benn and Heffer and now Kate Hoey.On that note Hoey,like those previous examples,is closer to Le Pen in her outlook regards the national interest and the idea of the nation state,than Corbyn. :bulb:

347

Carryfast:

muckles:
Wow gets complicated,
Can you go back and edit every post where you’ve put Socialist and change it to Bad Socialist, so us simple truck drivers don’t miss-understand your great writing, otherwise thing might get quoted out of context.

Don’t blame me if the in campaign’s understanding,of the difference between Nationalist ideology,as opposed to Socialist,is as bad as their understanding of basic maths.You can include all those mug German voters and supporters who believed the lie that Nationalism and Socialism can be put together. :unamused:

On that note their is no ‘good’ Socialism.There’s only Hitler’s version or Stalin’s version or Mao’s version or also now Merkel’s and Junker’s and Hollande’s etc version.No surprise that Corbyn is on the side of the In campaign as part of that agenda.

Unlike Shore,Benn and Heffer and now Kate Hoey.On that note Hoey,like those previous examples,is closer to Le Pen in her outlook regards the national interest and the idea of the nation state,than Corbyn. :bulb:

So exactly what political/ideological system do you believe we should adopt?

348

muckles:
So exactly what political/ideological system do you believe we should adopt?

The one that probably Shore ( and arguably unknowingly Heffer and Benn ) were trying to lead the Labour Party to and which Le Pen is trying to lead France to.Nationalism.IE the national interest and the self determination and sovereignty of the Nation State.

‘Not’ to be confused with the impossible contradiction of so called National Socialism which the Socialists would conveniently like to paint Nationalism as.When in fact the nazis were just another branch and version of Socialist ideology.

349

Carryfast:

eddie snax:
The fact we are importing more from other EU countries, than we export to the other EU countries, doesn’t alter the fact, that as a market and market potential, the EU is at a ball park glance(excluding our gdp) 5 x the size of the UK. We are the 2nd largest economy, after Germany, but Germany and France together, are twice the size of the UK in GDP terms.

Great the in campaign defeats its own bs rhetoric again.By proving its total inability to understand basic economics.Things like the importance of the difference between ‘size’ of the market as opposed to ‘market share’ and the fact that the trade deficit figures and net contribution figures show that EU membership is a massive net cost and burden on our economy.Yes the EU has a ‘sizeable’ market ‘potential’ … for ze Germans not for us.The net result being that we’ve lost more by providing open access to the domestic market than we can ever hope to gain in the EU market.Which explains those inconvenient trade deficit figures since we joined the federalist scam. :unamused:

So feel free to explain how running a massive trade deficit with a large potential market is supposedly ‘good’ for us and our economy.Let alone paying billions in net contributions for the privilege.Let me guess if I’ve read it right you’re worried about being denied access to your favourite German imports. :unamused:

I’ll ignore your last facile comment.

ONSUK trade with EU and non-EU countries 2014
Goods and services
---------------- Exports ------- Imports -------- Balance
--------------- £ billion----% —£ billion----%----- £ billion
-----EU ---------230-----45%------289---- 53%---- --59
Non-EU --------283-----55%------259-----47%----- +24
—Total --------513----100%-----548----100%---- -34
Source:ONS Balance of Payments Statistical Bulletin

That’s a basic table of the trade for 2014, and yes I know that there is a defecit with the EU, but there is still an Export trade to the value of £230 billion, so were does that trade get made up from, and further in this report, it shows that is a manufactured goods defecit, and that services were in credit.

The EU as a bloc is by far the UK’s largest trading partner. Exports to the US were £88.0 billion and exports to China £18.7 billion in 2014.2 The share of UK exports accounted for by the EU fell from 55% in 2002 to 45% in 2014. The EU accounted for 58% of UK imports in 2002. This fell to 51% in 2011 but increased again to 53% in 2014.

This paragraph shows that the US and China, our next 2 largest trading partners I assume, only accounted for £106.7billion.
So where do we make all these extra exports too, once the EU has been jettisoned.

Carryfast:
Firstly the domestic market is more important to us than the outdated idea that we can export our way out of debt.In a world in which the historic export markets are already saturated by their own domestic industries or foreign competition.

:

Blimey :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: I thought I was dealing an intellectual :open_mouth:

We should only be interested in our domestic market, the once great mercantile trading nation of Great Britain should shut the door and pass ever dwindling pot of beans between each other. Grow Up :unamused:

Dolph:
What actually UK produce that is an interest of the rest of the world, if you ditch EU. What US, China, Brazil, Australia be interested into?
After Brexit will UK be interesting place to invest money? Will UK remain as leading European financial market? Will foreign companies stay or move to mainland EU? Will EU citizens be kicked out? What will happen to their saving, years of contribution, property and vice versa, what will happen to all Brits living in EU? What will happen to all the EU treaties and rules UK is signatory to? Will UK have to follow EU rules in order to trade with the union? Will UK remain to use EU port without paying hefty tax/tariffs etc?
What will actually happen, does any one care to explain this to the people in UK?

:

There are so many unknowns, but I don’t think that London will have to worry about its position as the financial capital of the world, its a lot to do with global finance trading, and Londons position to do with time zones, vis a vis Tokyo and other far east financial centres, and New York, and the fact that most world banks have a presence in London already.

Other trading partners would have to decide, how soon they wanted to set up by lateral agreement, and that would depend on what was in it for them. Some may want to let the dust settle for a years or two, some agreements may run straight through from EU agreements already up and running.

I think that if we started kicking people out, other countries may reciprocate, so we’d have flood of pensioner from Spain and Portugal, and bankers from Germany and Poland (apparently), not to forget the Chalet Girls from the French Italian and Austrian Alps, so every cloud has a silver lining :wink:

Personally, I don’t understand, why we’d put the country into a period of stagnation, and that’s what I think will be the net result of Brexit, and that’s why I’m voting IN/REMAIN,
And lets not forget, that the SNP would use Brexit as a valid reason (whether you think that’s right or not) to bring forward a Scottish independence vote, which would bring forward more uncertainty, and stagnation.

And to what purpose, so you can believe that all your laws, that you think Brussells, or the Germans are imposing on us, will be removed. When in truth, the Whitehall mandarins, and the Westminster elite, will just set up a whole new load of bureaucracy, I mean look at the FORS regs, and side guard regs that Boris has imposed on transport in London, and that is sod all to do with the EU :unamused:

350

Carryfast:

muckles:
So exactly what political/ideological system do you believe we should adopt?

The one that probably Shore ( and arguably unknowingly Heffer and Benn ) were trying to lead the Labour Party to and which Le Pen is trying to lead France to.Nationalism.IE the national interest and the self determination and sovereignty of the Nation State.

‘Not’ to be confused with the impossible contradiction of so called National Socialism which the Socialists would conveniently like to paint Nationalism as.When in fact the nazis were just another branch and version of Socialist ideology.

So we don’t confuse it with another political system, can you give an example of a country (past or present) that’s adopted nationalism?

351

eddie snax:
I’ll ignore your last facile comment.

ONSUK trade with EU and non-EU countries 2014
Goods and services
---------------- Exports ------- Imports -------- Balance
--------------- £ billion----% —£ billion----%----- £ billion
-----EU ---------230-----45%------289---- 53%---- --59
Non-EU --------283-----55%------259-----47%----- +24
—Total --------513----100%-----548----100%---- -34
Source:ONS Balance of Payments Statistical Bulletin

That’s a basic table of the trade for 2014, and yes I know that there is a defecit with the EU, but there is still an Export trade to the value of £230 billion, so were does that trade get made up from, and further in this report, it shows that is a manufactured goods defecit, and that services were in credit.

The EU as a bloc is by far the UK’s largest trading partner. Exports to the US were £88.0 billion and exports to China £18.7 billion in 2014.2 The share of UK exports accounted for by the EU fell from 55% in 2002 to 45% in 2014. The EU accounted for 58% of UK imports in 2002. This fell to 51% in 2011 but increased again to 53% in 2014.

This paragraph shows that the US and China, our next 2 largest trading partners I assume, only accounted for £106.7billion.
So where do we make all these extra exports too, once the EU has been jettisoned.

Blimey :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: I thought I was dealing an intellectual :open_mouth:

We should only be interested in our domestic market, the once great mercantile trading nation of Great Britain should shut the door and pass ever dwindling pot of beans between each other. Grow Up :unamused:

You’re still obviously unable to grasp the idea that a trading relationship which puts us in trade deficit ain’t worth keeping anyway.Especially when that deficit is mostly made up of what we can produce for ourselves and especially when it costs us the additional amount of our net EU contributions in addition for the privilege.As for how do we make up for any so called potential loss of EU export markets ( based on what evidence exactly ) we can obviously make up for it out of the much higher 289 billion figure that they export to us.Assuming they really want a trade war just because we’ve told Merkel to do one and shove her EU treaties and rules.On that note does the 230 billion EU exports figure include oil and gas exports ?.In which case assuming it does that just means more depletion of our natural resources for the privilege of buying German goods that we could make for ourselves.Nothing new there.

As for concentrating on the domestic market,in the realisation that most of the rest of the world is now a financial liability,in regards to trade,in the saturated under cut markets of the 21st century,in which the Fordist economic system is now just a memory in favour of third world and Communist exploited cheap labour.Go tell British Steel Workers how good EU membership is.Let alone the ‘benefits’ of global free trade in that environment.

So yet more evidence.The IN campaign for people who don’t understand basic maths. :unamused:

352

muckles:

Carryfast:

muckles:
So exactly what political/ideological system do you believe we should adopt?

The one that probably Shore ( and arguably unknowingly Heffer and Benn ) were trying to lead the Labour Party to and which Le Pen is trying to lead France to.Nationalism.IE the national interest and the self determination and sovereignty of the Nation State.

‘Not’ to be confused with the impossible contradiction of so called National Socialism which the Socialists would conveniently like to paint Nationalism as.When in fact the nazis were just another branch and version of Socialist ideology.

So we don’t confuse it with another political system, can you give an example of a country (past or present) that’s adopted nationalism?

Not surprisingly Nationalism is still trying to bust through the barriers put up by both the Federalist cheap labour ideology of the Europhile Cons and their banker cronies and their Socialist allies made up of people like Hollande and Merkel and Corbyn,in trying to convince voters that Nationalism doesn’t mean ■■■■.On that note pre EEC Ireland would probably fit the definition.As would an FN administration winning out in France.

In just the same way that a Confederate States of Europe,made up of Sovereign states,as opposed to a USE federation made up of subservient no longer sovereign states,wouldn’t mean slavery. :unamused:

353

Carryfast:

muckles:

Carryfast:

muckles:
So exactly what political/ideological system do you believe we should adopt?

The one that probably Shore ( and arguably unknowingly Heffer and Benn ) were trying to lead the Labour Party to and which Le Pen is trying to lead France to.Nationalism.IE the national interest and the self determination and sovereignty of the Nation State.

‘Not’ to be confused with the impossible contradiction of so called National Socialism which the Socialists would conveniently like to paint Nationalism as.When in fact the nazis were just another branch and version of Socialist ideology.

So we don’t confuse it with another political system, can you give an example of a country (past or present) that’s adopted nationalism?

Not surprisingly Nationalism is still trying to bust through the barriers put up by both the Federalist cheap labour ideology of the Europhile Cons and their banker cronies and their Socialist allies made up of people like Hollande and Merkel and Corbyn,in trying to convince voters that Nationalism doesn’t mean ■■■■.On that note pre EEC Ireland would probably fit the definition.

In just the same way that a Confederate States of Europe,made up of Sovereign states,as opposed to a USE federation made up of subservient no longer sovereign states,wouldn’t mean slavery. :unamused:

So you’d accept a confederation of European states?

354

muckles:

Carryfast:

muckles:
So exactly what political/ideological system do you believe we should adopt?

The one that probably Shore ( and arguably unknowingly Heffer and Benn ) were trying to lead the Labour Party to and which Le Pen is trying to lead France to.Nationalism.IE the national interest and the self determination and sovereignty of the Nation State.

‘Not’ to be confused with the impossible contradiction of so called National Socialism which the Socialists would conveniently like to paint Nationalism as.When in fact the nazis were just another branch and version of Socialist ideology.

So we don’t confuse it with another political system, can you give an example of a country (past or present) that’s adopted nationalism?

That is actually an incredibly good question. Well asked.

To colour your point I’d add " a country that’s adopted nationalism without…" Falling to communism or heading on the road to fall from capitalism.

355

muckles:
So you’d accept a confederation of European states?

Assuming you can understand the difference between that,as opposed to the Constitution contained within the treaties of Rome/Maastricht/Lisbon,yes why not.

IE a ‘Conditional’/‘Contra’,take your pick,Federation in which the ‘Conditions’ by definition mean that every seperate state retains the right of individual Sovereignty,opt out,substitution and VETO,over every aspect of the decision making process affecting the group.

356

Freight Dog:

muckles:

Carryfast:

muckles:
So exactly what political/ideological system do you believe we should adopt?

The one that probably Shore ( and arguably unknowingly Heffer and Benn ) were trying to lead the Labour Party to and which Le Pen is trying to lead France to.Nationalism.IE the national interest and the self determination and sovereignty of the Nation State.

‘Not’ to be confused with the impossible contradiction of so called National Socialism which the Socialists would conveniently like to paint Nationalism as.When in fact the nazis were just another branch and version of Socialist ideology.

So we don’t confuse it with another political system, can you give an example of a country (past or present) that’s adopted nationalism?

That is actually an incredibly good question. Well asked.

To colour your point I’d add " a country that’s adopted nationalism without…" Falling to communism or heading on the road to fall from capitalism.

As I said pre EEC Ireland would fit the definition.

As for ‘falling to communism’ the breakup of the former Yugoslavia would be an example of Nationalism actually ‘defeating’ Socialism/Communism.Which make no mistake is where the Stasi Merkel led EU Federation is ultimately also heading unless it can be peacefully smashed now.

357

Carryfast:

muckles:
So you’d accept a confederation of European states?

Assuming you can understand the difference between that,as opposed to the Constitution contained within the treaties of Rome/Maastricht/Lisbon,yes why not.

IE a ‘Conditional’/‘Contra’,take your pick,Federation in which the ‘Conditions’ by definition mean that every seperate state retains the right of individual Sovereignty,opt out and VETO over every aspect of the decision making process affecting the group.

But how can a group that decides to come together because they have common goals act totally independently?
If you allow the the wishes of an individual to override the goals of the group, surely it no longer becomes a group of the like minded, but individuals acting for themselves?

358

If you don’t have ‘unanimous’,locally agreed,democratic consent on every issue, without the ability to opt out of/change/VETO any decision,you don’t have a consenting group of ‘like minded individuals’.America has been here before in the corruption of its original Confederate Constitution and the result being what happened in 1861 and don’t give me the slavery bollox.

On that note how does the right of opt out or substitution for example translate as stopping any or all of the the rest of the group doing what it wants. :unamused:

359

Carryfast:
If you don’t have ‘unanimous’,locally agreed,democratic consent on every issue, without the ability to opt out of/change/VETO any decision,you don’t have a consenting group of ‘like minded individuals’.America has been here before in the corruption of its original Confederate Constitution and the result being what happened in 1861 and don’t give me the slavery bollox.

you have many groups where the members have a common aim, but disagree on the details, if there is a right of veto on every decision the group will probably never move forward to achieve it’s main aim. If a member of that group finds it can’t accept the conditions agreed by the majority then they really have to leave the group or the group will cease to be a group.
(Could really be an argument for the UK leaving the EU, we really don’t agree with the aims of the group and we don’t want to be bound by the decisions of the group, but we can’t remain in the group and just keep vetoing anything that doesn’t suit us, as that would mean neither the UK or the EU can progress)

And you will never get a group of people who totally agree with each other on every detail, even if they are like minded and want to achieve a common goal. so you’d have no chance of a group of nations agreeing on every detail.

And my understanding of Democratic consent isn’t a unanimous agreement but all members having an equal vote, but agreeing to accept decision of the majority.

360

Carryfast:
As I said pre EEC Ireland would fit the definition.

As for ‘falling to communism’ the breakup of the former Yugoslavia would be an example of Nationalism actually ‘defeating’ Socialism/Communism.Which make no mistake is where the Stasi Merkel led EU Federation is ultimately also heading unless it can be peacefully smashed now.

I beg to differ. I don’t think PRE EEC Ireland would fit that definition at all. They were defiantly falling from capitalism. Victorian levels of poverty rife in small towns and villages anywhere outside of Dublin. Something had to change, that’s one of the very reasons cited why the poor sorry buggers thought they’d found it in the EU.