In or out of EU ? Poll

Winseer:
It’s really sad that there are going to be so many people in this country that’ll vote for something because “It’s against what someone they don’t like wants” - in this case, Nigel Farage.

I wonder however if Cameron is playing a feint here - and he actually strongly wants us OUT himself - but feels that people will only vote out en-masse if it’s to spite HIM playing the “pandering to the in camp” as he is…

He flatters himself if he thinks he’s more right-wing Tory than Farage I reckon. :unamused:

It’s the definition of ‘right’ v ‘left’ which is the problem.

Ironically the country is heading down the tubes so long as the sheep continue to buy the LabLibDemCon propaganda that nationalist/protectionist means ‘right wing’.While given an accurate definition of ‘right’ being what the CBI want,Cameron is already way to the right of Farage and Le Pen is as left as it gets. :bulb:

boredwivdrivin:
Of course if he followed my advice form an English independance party , he would by default be a supporter of Welsh independance , and might well find this audience more sympathetic .

He could then form WIP ( welsh Ind Party) as a sister organisstion to EIP (Eng Ind Par) and should be able to wipe the floor with Plaid Cymru.

^ This.

But unfortunately none of which would make much difference without re education of the public that Nationalist Protectionist anti immigration isn’t right wing let alone ■■■■.While the ‘UK’,like the EU,is just an artificial Federalist institution that denies the population of the British Isles it’s rights to self determination just as the Conqueror and his Plantagenet etc successors intended.

Le Penn? left? :open_mouth:

Winseer:
Le Penn? left? :open_mouth:

Absolutely depending on the definition of ‘left’.Assuming it means what’s good for the working class ? what’s wrong with the idea of French jobs for French workers.

In a protected market that stops them being under cut by cheap foreign labour.Or in fact any foreign competition regards anything which can be produced domestically.Or subject to competition for housing and services by large scale immigration.

As opposed to what’s best for the establishment in the form of taking advantage of cheap exploited Chinese Communist labour and a free domestic labour market subject to an open door immigration policy,for example. :bulb:

I suppose if one calls “Momentum” a group of hard lefties - they operate in a similar manner to the Nationalist Socialist party of Germany… So, in that context - one could say “As Left as Hitler” or “Just left of Genghis Khan”. :neutral_face:

Winseer:
I suppose if one calls “Momentum” a group of hard lefties - they operate in a similar manner to the Nationalist Socialist party of Germany… So, in that context - one could say “As Left as Hitler” or “Just left of Genghis Khan”. :neutral_face:

As I’ve said Nationalism and Socialism are mutually exclusive.IE Socialists don’t do the right to self determination and respect of the nation state and national borders.

While Fordist Capitalism can only logically work under a protectionist economic policy.Which then leaves the question as to any example of where the working class are ever better off under Socialist economic policy v Fordist Capitalism.IE ■■■■ Germany or the DDR or Soviet Russia or today’s China v 1960’s USA.

So Socialism is actually the extreme right whether it’s Hitler’s version or Marx.By a definition of left which is what’s good for the working class which in this case would obviously mean the 1960’s US economic principles.‘But’ in Europe under a nationalist protectionist anti federalist regime which would provide economic sustainability and democratic local control over government based on the right of self determination.Which would logically translate as a totally new form of politics which blows apart all previous pre conceptions of ‘right’ v ‘left’ in the form of the Nationalist Labour Party here at least.

IE everything which scares the zb out of the US Federal Government in the form of the Confederate States of Europe in which state sovereignty is supreme and in which we opt out of the global free market economy. :bulb: :smiling_imp: :wink: :smiley:

Winseer:
It’s really sad that there are going to be so many people in this country that’ll vote for something because “It’s against what someone they don’t like wants” - in this case, Nigel Farage.

I wonder however if Cameron is playing a feint here - and he actually strongly wants us OUT himself - but feels that people will only vote out en-masse if it’s to spite HIM playing the “pandering to the in camp” as he is…

He flatters himself if he thinks he’s more right-wing Tory than Farage I reckon. :unamused:

Consider this though: If Cameron were leading the “OUT” campaign right now, then not only would Nigel Farage step aside and give him room - but Merkel would quickly become reactionary - and offer all kinds of concessions to him personally that would be no good for the rest of the country. There are plenty of course who think he’s already been offered just such clandestine concessions, like a million Euro per year bankroll after he leaves office, and suchlike. If that’s the case, it would be yet more corruption by our prime minister of course - but just as with Blair - they’ve run away with their payoff - whilst the rest of the country licks it’s wounds, mourns it’s dead, and has no way of going back when what’s done is finally done for the last time - throwing away the last of our sovereignty in this case. :frowning:

As Cameron is married to a scion of the Astor bloodline i imagine vulgarities such as future income streams is hardly going to be a big issue for this Eton/Oxon factory-farmed replicant.Just a thought.

He will do whatever the Bilderburg,Cfr,Club of Rome have groomed him to do from infancy,ditto Farage in this perpetual pantomime of Hegelian smoke and mirrors at the behest of messrs-Jakob,Evelynn and Nathaniel Rothschild,owners of planet earth and all its denizens.

manalishi:

Winseer:
It’s really sad that there are going to be so many people in this country that’ll vote for something because “It’s against what someone they don’t like wants” - in this case, Nigel Farage.

I wonder however if Cameron is playing a feint here - and he actually strongly wants us OUT himself - but feels that people will only vote out en-masse if it’s to spite HIM playing the “pandering to the in camp” as he is…

He flatters himself if he thinks he’s more right-wing Tory than Farage I reckon. :unamused:

Consider this though: If Cameron were leading the “OUT” campaign right now, then not only would Nigel Farage step aside and give him room - but Merkel would quickly become reactionary - and offer all kinds of concessions to him personally that would be no good for the rest of the country. There are plenty of course who think he’s already been offered just such clandestine concessions, like a million Euro per year bankroll after he leaves office, and suchlike. If that’s the case, it would be yet more corruption by our prime minister of course - but just as with Blair - they’ve run away with their payoff - whilst the rest of the country licks it’s wounds, mourns it’s dead, and has no way of going back when what’s done is finally done for the last time - throwing away the last of our sovereignty in this case. :frowning:

As Cameron is married to a scion of the Astor bloodline i imagine vulgarities such as future income streams is hardly going to be a big issue for this Eton/Oxon factory-farmed replicant.Just a thought.

Yeh, but you can’t criticize the Astors, lest you be accused of automatically being “another Hitler”. It didn’t take long for Farage to originally be accused of being “another Hitler” when as far as I know, he’s not criticized any individuals at all - merely announced a crackdown on things like criminals, white collar scams, and being a thug at large having burned your papers… Oh dear! It seems that White Collar scams can be run by anyone of any religion, colour, or nationality. The actual “business plan” of said scam though? - I don’t recall anyone blaming the kosher landowning gentry for that. :confused: :question:

It’s not that Muslims are up for singling out here… They just don’t stop whatever they are doing when pushed to do so by indigenous Brits… “Walking down the street with an incompatible religion” might be said.
It’s not that Zionists are up for singling out here… They’ll just be coming up with another scheme designed to scam money out of the taxpayers, aided and abetted by the government to do so. “Financial Innovation” is another name for this.
It’s not that Eastern Europeans are for singling out here… They only took that job that you could not afford to take. You’ve got a mortgage to pay. They’ll likely get housing benefit.
It’s not that even Commonwealth immigrants are beyond criticism - Have you ever tried ordering a drink at a bar from someone who wants to lamp you if you offer them a tip, wants to take your girlfriend off you, or drives a better car than you can even afford to insure? Huh? :confused: :unamused:

Then there’s everyone else… Standing behind you at cashpoints, asking for money online, and acting like their as poor as a mosque mouse (can’t say “church” these days…) Always attempting to be some kind of drain, be they in front of you at casualty, bed blocking, council house blocking, or even job blocking. It’s never been harder for PAYE-Working indigenous Brits to get any public services as it is now. I reckon it is this latter group of people that were taking UKIP into second place vs Labour in the North of England.

I have to assume that Wales, Scotland don’t have these issues locally - they might be somewhat less socialist and more firebrand if they did.

How few people get the single benefit that comes from all this? - A low interest rate on their mortgage forever?
Taking out a base rate tracker at around the time Farage took over UKIP - has probably been the biggest bit of upside “seeing what is coming and doing something about it” to occur since the turn of the century.
…But not if you listened to those who advised you to NOT take out a tracker when rates were 7.5% and falling… but to FIX all the way down, paying those huge fees, AND paying over 1% more than the prevailing rate whilst you’re at it…

Nope, I’m not soapboxing here. I did see it all coming - lest I be a lot worse off a decade later.
I didn’t vote for Blair, I laughed when that toffee-nosed twit Mellor lost his putney seat, I make do and mend, and I attempt as much as possible to avoid confrontations with foreigners that have the law on their side in all things it seems. Can’t remember the last time I “went to a pub” or “spent an evening in London outside of my vehicle”… London is a foreign city now. You drive around seeing small pockets of age-old Londoners who’ve holed themselves up in side streets with 7.5t on them Quivering in fear, wondering if their tax credits will yet be cut, whilst gangs of Merc-driving Hokah-Smoking non-whites are giving it large outside the Kebab shop across the street, chatting to their self-employed tax-fiddling “dial a molestor” minicab mates next door…

It’s not the race, colour, or lifestyle. It’s the fact that it’s in your face all the time, and WE get criticized for any concerns raised whatsoever. I’m only against the ones that take the ■■■■ - that would be the government and those who demand I cannot criticize. Most of them are white politically correct types that read the guardian, and voted for Corbyn to be leader. FFS. We should be careful what we wish for when the only choices are “Supporting the white collar fiddlers” or “supporting those who’d deny you free speech” eh? :frowning: :frowning:

Eloquently put as ever old boy.I think a website i peruse called- Tomatobubble (Anti New York Times) might be of interest to you.

£5.- on Cameron

Farage made the one important point during the last election - it comes down to the numbers of people here because the more that come here the more pressure it puts on the NHS and housing as well as jobs

If the UK does not have full control of its borders then all the rest is pointless negotiating IMO

ADD - the poll figures are about 80% out at the moment on this site - that says a lot ! - wonder if the rest of the UK will use common sense in the referendum or go by the spin …

ROG:
Farage made the one important point during the last election - it comes down to the numbers of people here because the more that come here the more pressure it puts on the NHS and housing as well as jobs

If the UK does not have full control of its borders then all the rest is pointless negotiating IMO

ADD - the poll figures are about 80% out at the moment on this site - that says a lot ! - wonder if the rest of the UK will use common sense in the referendum or go by the spin …

‘Full control’ of our borders is just one aspect of the ‘full sovereignty’ issue which isn’t and never was on the table.Cameron’s ‘re negotiations’ are just a diversionary scam being used by the in campaign in the hope that it will fool the Euro Sceptics in the Con ranks.While Farage needs to just stick to making an ever increasing forceful case that the argument has now moved on to being about who rules the country.Parliament,which we can hold democratically accountable,or EU Federal majority vote and the CBI .In which nothing less than 100% parliamentary control is good enough and which ( hopefully ) the Euro Sceptic Con faction is now onside with.Assuming that type of Euro Sceptic commitment among the Cons which the country needs it’s difficult to see how the Cons aren’t going to be torn apart in a pro EU v anti EU internal fight regardless of what Cameron does now and what bs ‘deal’ he can get from Merkel and her supporters like Hollande and Cameron knows it.

The really scary flaws in Farage’s position being that he seems to still regard holding the UK together as being more important than the issue of the ongoing fight to smash EU federalism.To the point where he seems to be saying that he’s happy to walk away from the argument ‘if’ the referendum goes against him and even ‘if’ it’s based on the Scottish vote being the difference between in or out.In which case adding insult to the injury,of not only condemning future generations of English voters to foreign federal rule,with no ongoing get out clause,regarding membership and secession being subject to continuous review and choice,but also because a few Scottish want it.While the bias,double standards and hypocrisy of the in campaign seems clear in that regard in the case of it being seen as ok for the Scots to opt out of an English out vote taking Scotland out,but not ok for the English to opt out of a Scottish in vote keeping England in.Possibly in large part explained by the Royal’s position regarding the subject of breakup of the UK and an obvious pro EU bias within. :unamused: :open_mouth:

Only good thing is carryfast that some of the diehard tartan nationalists think that voting OUT is best way of ensuring a new UK referendum .

They think that as an independant jockland they could take their country back into EU after leaving UK .

This may bring the Scottish vote down from north korean levels .

Heres hoping they are brighter than they look and manage to achieve this .

If the Tories want to stay in then i say OUT. If the Tories want out then i say stay IN . :laughing:

boredwivdrivin:
Only good thing is carryfast that some of the diehard tartan nationalists think that voting OUT is best way of ensuring a new UK referendum .

They think that as an independant jockland they could take their country back into EU after leaving UK .

This may bring the Scottish vote down from north korean levels .

Heres hoping they are brighter than they look and manage to achieve this .

I can see how that that might just work in an environment where it’s in both the SNP’s and English anti EU interest to get an out majority. :smiley: :smiling_imp:

Tommy7437:
If the Tories want to stay in then i say OUT. If the Tories want out then i say stay IN . :laughing:

The idea is to take advantage of the Con Euro Sceptic vote,which we know is all about selling the country out to the Chinese Communist dominated global free market instead of the German and Socialist interest dominated EU one.Because we can’t get the Nationalist/Protectionist v Socialist v Con three way fight the country needs at home without getting the country back under our own control first. :bulb:

The out campaign looks like over 90% consisting of Tory Eurosceptics and UKIP.

What about all those Labour voters who think that Corbyn is a swell guy?

he who wants to keep in bed with Socialist Europe…

I suggest that there may be more sheep with this group (poor people who think they’ll be less poor with “more of the same forever”) than the “other” group of sheep - old folk who’s pensions have yet to be taken off them, yet they still live on to vote Conservative behind the scenes (hidden from pollsters)…

The simple equation is that Tory Eurosceptic+100% of UKIP < 51% of the poll, let alone the electorate.

If turnout is comparable to Last May - around 35% of people won’t vote at all (effectively a vote for any status quo) and around 30% will be voting “IN”. This gives an overall 65% vote that is NOT “Get Out”.

It doesn’t matter that 35% of people end up voting “OUT” and that 35% outnumber the 30% that voted to stay in.

To paraphrase Joe Stalin:-

“Those who vote count for nothing. Those who decide how the vote is counted - count for everything.”

The Bookmaker’s price for us “Staying In” (NOT the vote for “Stay in” to outnumber the "Get Out vote!!) is steady at 1.44 decimal. Roughly odds-on 8/15

Winseer:
The out campaign looks like over 90% consisting of Tory Eurosceptics and UKIP.

What about all those Labour voters who think that Corbyn is a swell guy?

he who wants to keep in bed with Socialist Europe…

I suggest that there may be more sheep with this group (poor people who think they’ll be less poor with “more of the same forever”) than the “other” group of sheep - old folk who’s pensions have yet to be taken off them, yet they still live on to vote Conservative behind the scenes (hidden from pollsters)…

The simple equation is that Tory Eurosceptic+100% of UKIP < 51% of the poll, let alone the electorate.

If turnout is comparable to Last May - around 35% of people won’t vote at all (effectively a vote for any status quo) and around 30% will be voting “IN”. This gives an overall 65% vote that is NOT “Get Out”.

It doesn’t matter that 35% of people end up voting “OUT” and that 35% outnumber the 30% that voted to stay in.

To paraphrase Joe Stalin:-

“Those who vote count for nothing. Those who decide how the vote is counted - count for everything.”

The Bookmaker’s price for us “Staying In” (NOT the vote for “Stay in” to outnumber the "Get Out vote!!) is steady at 1.44 decimal. Roughly odds-on 8/15

:confused:

That seems like a pessimistic figure when surely the out vote is most/all of the UKIP vote + a known and an unknown Con euro sceptic vote who voted tactically in the election to keep out a false SNP/Lab threat.But won’t be so forgiving when the choice is a Davis/Fox etc v Cameron and Osbourne etc internal Party fight.In addition to an unknown Lab vote who hopefully might realise that supporting the idea of British jobs for German and East Euro workers isn’t the best way to further the cause of indigenous working class fortunes.In addition to hopefully a massively under estimated Scottish tactical vote that realises the best way to get Scottish independence is to get an out majority thereby forcing another Scottish independence referendum.

On that note how does the non vote affect a result that surely is/should be just how many votes for in v votes for out ?.

Bearing in mind no one has said anything about abstentions counting as a vote for in. :confused: Which if true would surely be good reason for the out campaign to withdraw from the referendum process and then turn it into the democratic national sovereign parliament v Federalist treason fight it should really be anyway.

Politicians rarely worry about “less beer today” as they do “getting out of delivering more jam for tomorrow” alas.

As sitting prime minister, Cameron always has the nuclear option to get rid of unruly colleagues if the worst comes to the worst.

The honourable member for Haltemprice on the other hand - might think his power is greater than can actually be wielded. The poor showing of UKIP in the south of England shows this for what it is.

If people thought they had to turn a prior Tory marginal into a new safe Tory seat - then UKIP have little power among those who are better off IN the EU - ie the wealthier south of England.

It’s the full monty team up north that almost voted UKIP, but ended up keeping the safe Labour bod in their seat - who might yet swing this entire thing one way or the other.

DO the north of England hate the South of England more - or merely the Tory party though?

I must agree with some previous posts that suggest “Whatever way Cameron wants it - I’m voting the other way”. British bloody-mindedness at it’s best. :wink: