Look at Churchills speach in 1952 ( and I don’t mean the dog advert ) we are geographly Europe,but we will never be part of Europe.Nothing has changed .Stop this scaremonemongering its slowly falling on deaf ears.
OUT…OUT…OUT…should have happened 15 years ago
Stanley Knife:
This is interesting: Michael Crick, of C4* (nearly as pro EU biased as the BBC), reckons he has enough to call in the police on alleged Tory by-election overspends while fighting UKIP in Clacton and Rochester? It’s a possibility that UKIP may have had the Tories rattled enough that they overstepped the law more than ‘acceptable’.Bearing this in mind it’s also possible that the BBC election programs at the time could be looked at, as every day it seemed they were being fed yet another UKIP scandal, most of them involving ex Tory councillors and ex Tory party workers. Someone was supplying the BBC’s anti UKIP addiction and that someone had access to confidential details of ex Tories.
Of course, if this goes to the Electoral Commission, Jenny Watson, the supercilious lefty incompetent waste of space in charge will only chase this up if it’s politically expedient,
especially as the Home Secretary will have to authorise an investigation - Dave’s mate Theresa May!
*Curious that Crick’s indignation at financial secrecy and the lavish overspending of sinister cash rich concerns with questionable political motives surfaces only shortly after he . . . erm . . . left the BBC, after many long, happy years.
Bearing in mind that our membership of the EEC/EU was always illegal from the point of view of treason by the letter of the law and now allows documented former East German and Polish Communists to say ‘there will be consequences’ if we leave.Without diplomatic protest of that interfering in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country and appropriate action against the EU regards same,why is the above any surprise.Realistically we’re in the middle of a corrupt zb storm of dodgy illegal foreign interference in domestic government affairs since 1973 in collusion with people like Heath and his pro EU successors.
Realistically there’s no place for any government that compromises the nation’s sovereignty to whatever level and it should be the job of the military to sort out any issues whereby any government department or minister facilitates that in any way.Not a matter for ‘referendum’ or the need for UKIP to try to sort it out in a potentially,allegedly,rigged infiltrated,compromised,government system.
Now that’s interesting and messy if happens.
Imagine that the UK as a whole votes to leave the European Union in the referendum when voters in Scotland vote to remain in the European Union. If this led to another Scottish independence referendum being held, how would you vote in response to the question ‘‘Should Scotland be an independent country’’?
Yes 57.7%
No 42.3%
Heres hoping !
Scroll back to about page 11 for more info .
Dolph:
Now that’s interesting and messy if happens.Imagine that the UK as a whole votes to leave the European Union in the referendum when voters in Scotland vote to remain in the European Union. If this led to another Scottish independence referendum being held, how would you vote in response to the question ‘‘Should Scotland be an independent country’’?
Yes 57.7%
No 42.3%
We can all grab a load of statistics to argue a case, from your links.
Pollsters TNS last week found that Scottish support for the EU had fallen from 49% in May 2015 to 44% in January
Imagine that the UK as a whole votes to leave the European Union in the referendum when voters in Scotland vote to remain in the European Union. If this led to another Scottish independence referendum being held, how would you vote in response to the question ‘‘Should Scotland be an independent country’’?
Yes 57.7%
No 42.3%The exact figures shouldn’t be taken too seriously, because people tend to be bad at working out how they would feel about a subject in hypothetical circumstances.
Ipsos-Mori have asked the independence question. This is only the third ‘real world’ poll (telephone or face-to-face) to test support for independence since the referendum - and, extraordinarily, all three have shown a Yes lead.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
Yes 52.1% (-2.
No 47.9% (+2.
So that’s a 5% increase in a yes vote if the UK leaves the EU over a basic Yes/No vote for Scottish independence, in polling statistics terms 5% isn’t really enough to call it conclusive.
The crucial point about scottish independance is whether the english are allowed an opinion
Because if english are , the vote becomes not only one on scottish independance …
But one of english independance too
boredwivdrivin:
The crucial point about scottish independance is whether the english are allowed an opinionBecause if english are , the vote becomes not only one on scottish independance …
But one of english independance too
Absolutely! Never happen though as we all know that an English vote on Scottish independence will not produce the result “they” want.
The ‘Michael Crick’ files have been sent to the police, with rumours that they also include info on the South Thanet result. Maybe they’ll get to the bottom of the ballot boxes that couldn’t be found for six hours. 
the maoster:
boredwivdrivin:
The crucial point about scottish independance is whether the english are allowed an opinionBecause if english are , the vote becomes not only one on scottish independance …
But one of english independance too
Absolutely! Never happen though as we all know that an English vote on Scottish independence will not produce the result “they” want.
Which all gets a bit more interesting assuming a narrow EU ‘in’ vote with the balance decided by the Scottish margin.Or vice versa of an out vote against a Scottish majority in vote. 
It’s difficult to see how ‘they’ ( the establishment ) will actually allow any referendum on the EU ‘if’ ‘they’ 1) think there’s any realistic chance of the out campaign succeeding and 2 ) if that inevitably means the breakup of the UK.
On that note if it’s an honest EU referendum that issue would obviously need to be dealt with by putting all the requirements for a further English and Scottish independence referendum in place ready to cater for that scenario.Without that provision there’s no way that the EU ‘referendum’ can be credible.Let alone the question of equal media exposure for the out campaign and can we even trust any referendum to not be rigged anyway.Bearing in mind the unlawful treasonous nature of our EEC/EU membership treaties anyway.
Stanley Knife:
The ‘Michael Crick’ files have been sent to the police, with rumours that they also include info on the South Thanet result. Maybe they’ll get to the bottom of the ballot boxes that couldn’t be found for six hours.
Sounds interesting.But who controls the police.
Seems like Sarah Wollaston MP has thrown her lot in with Brexit after ripping her boss Call Me Dave’s ‘hard fought’ renegotiation:
Prime Minister has set out the terms of his provisional deal with the leaders of our EU partners and it is a threadbare offering. What use are ’emergency breaks’ when the driver has no control or ‘red cards’ that have no credible chance of being deployed? Apart from a small concession on sham marriages, the truth is that the proposals will have no significant impact on our ability to limit inward migration from the EU. They will however, usher in rafts of bureaucratic cost and complexity with sliding scales for length of residency and nationality for child benefit.
David Cameron was right that the EU will need further reform but if this is the best that can be grudgingly conceded when there is a serious risk of a British exit, what chance of any meaningful further reform if and when we are tied-in long term by the referendum? The proposed red card system to halt unwanted EU diktats will need a majority of other leaders in support…so it is vanishingly unlikely to be of use if future policies are imposed against our national interest.”
Drip, drip, drip . . .
Grassroots Out seems to have merged vs the establishment-run “vote leave” with leave.eu.
Yeh. I’m ■■■■■■■ in knots already.
This is another one of those things designed to trip people up like putting a Liberal Democrat underneath a Literal Democrat on the ballot paper.
I’m bloody dyslexic myself - so I’m fuming enough as it is.
All these parties should just bloody well untie sff… 
Heres an idea winseer .
Ive just hit play on the VHS and perused Question Time . largely on fastforward it has to be said .
On show were the finest politicians the principality could muster . plus Nige . thankfully tho there were no scots who seem obligatory at any english QT .
I watched Nige and tried to quantify his attributes . tricky , the camera doesnt love him , he sounds like a weirdo , doesnt make any lucid points , carries mucho baggage , seems shifty , scared my cat and my granny thought i had recorded crimewatch by mistake .
Thereupon i hatched a plan to strengthen the OUT campaign considerably …
Get Nige to work for the Ins .
boredwivdrivin:
I watched Nige and tried to quantify his attributes . tricky , the camera doesnt love him , he sounds like a weirdo , doesnt make any lucid points , carries mucho baggage , seems shifty , scared my cat and my granny thought i had recorded crimewatch by mistake .
Blimey that would be a much better description of Cameron and Osbourne and they are actually running the country. 
As for Farage how lucid does it need to get when all he needs to say is that EU membership costs us more than we get out of it,is a trade scam that benefits the Germans and a foreign aid scam that benefits Eastern Europe.Under a system of Federal government and with an immigration policy that panders to the Socialist dreams of those like Merkel and Junker and Hollande.
Having said that unfortunately no Farage isn’t in the same league as Shore and Powell but probably the best we’re going to get among the present day options.
I remember i previously agreed that he was best man for the job , after suffering a terrible kicking on here .( and assuming dyson/boris/carswell types dont want job )
But crikey he needs to pull his socks up fast .
He is hamstrung by his daft Unionist views . a fat dude laid Nige out by saying post brexit we are still having land border with EU thru Ireland !! The obvious answer is why is NI part of british isle and not irish isle ■■. but no Nige cant say that because he is a UK unionist .
He also made a mess of the ‘is brexit the answer to immigration question’ . clearly brexit is NOT answer to immigration , but without brexit there is NO chance of fixing it .
He ballsed up the ‘steelworks’ question and was rescued by old lady in audience who said US put massive (200%+) tariffs on chinese steel .
I think he is struggling with the torn loyalties of being a figure head for Brexit , and being leader of a bunch of reactionary rightwing nutters party .
He needs to do 1 job or the other , as the 2 positions are contradictory .
We cannot afford to lose the referendum
boredwivdrivin:
I remember i previously agreed that he was best man for the job , after suffering a terrible kicking on here .( and assuming dyson/boris/carswell types dont want job )But crikey he needs to pull his socks up fast .
He is hamstrung by his daft Unionist views . a fat dude laid Nige out by saying post brexit we are still having land border with EU thru Ireland !! The obvious answer is why is NI part of british isle and not irish isle ■■. but no Nige cant say that because he is a UK unionist .
He also made a mess of the ‘is brexit the answer to immigration question’ . clearly brexit is NOT answer to immigration , but without brexit there is NO chance of fixing it .
He ballsed up the ‘steelworks’ question and was rescued by old lady in audience who said US put massive (200%+) tariffs on chinese steel .
I think he is struggling with the torn loyalties of being a figure head for Brexit , and being leader of a bunch of reactionary rightwing nutters party .
He needs to do 1 job or the other , as the 2 positions are contradictory .
We cannot afford to lose the referendum
Absolutely.
We’ve got two brilliant anti EU advocates in the form of Farage and Hannan.But both of who,like Powell was to a point,are lumbered with all their Conservative Party roots free markets and UK Unionist ideology bs baggage.
Ironically if it’s all about a proper nationalist stance in that regard we’d be looking at someone like Le Pen and the FN which unfortunately faces an equally zbwit opposition by those with all the Socialist baggage which regards real Nationalism which we need as being ‘right wing’. On that note I never watched question time because it’s usually just a load of biased bs with a planted on message audience.However ‘if’ Farage found himself facing a BBC picked audience that was calling for a protectionist trade policy and breakup of the UK ,in addition to leaving the EU,that can only be a good sign for the out campaign.In that it shows a shift in public attitudes towards what’s needed in a Nationalist and by definition protectionist solution to a free markets Globalist/Federalist problem.On that note it would be interesting to see Farage’s stance given that choice.Personally I think it would just confirm his limits in being no Le Pen.While by the same logic Boris or Carswell can only be considered as at least as bad if not worse.
So yes given the choice between what’s really needed in a Nationalist Labour Party v dodgy Conservative ideology I would obviously prefer the former.But unfortunately it isn’t an ideal world and we don’t have that choice at least ‘yet’.The issue then being obvious if people really want Nationalist policy,as opposed to Socialist or Con,then they’ll need to call for it and then vote for it.
It’s really sad that there are going to be so many people in this country that’ll vote for something because “It’s against what someone they don’t like wants” - in this case, Nigel Farage.
I wonder however if Cameron is playing a feint here - and he actually strongly wants us OUT himself - but feels that people will only vote out en-masse if it’s to spite HIM playing the “pandering to the in camp” as he is…
He flatters himself if he thinks he’s more right-wing Tory than Farage I reckon.
Consider this though: If Cameron were leading the “OUT” campaign right now, then not only would Nigel Farage step aside and give him room - but Merkel would quickly become reactionary - and offer all kinds of concessions to him personally that would be no good for the rest of the country. There are plenty of course who think he’s already been offered just such clandestine concessions, like a million Euro per year bankroll after he leaves office, and suchlike. If that’s the case, it would be yet more corruption by our prime minister of course - but just as with Blair - they’ve run away with their payoff - whilst the rest of the country licks it’s wounds, mourns it’s dead, and has no way of going back when what’s done is finally done for the last time - throwing away the last of our sovereignty in this case. 
Carryfast:
boredwivdrivin:
I watched Nige and tried to quantify his attributes . tricky , the camera doesnt love him , he sounds like a weirdo , doesnt make any lucid points , carries mucho baggage , seems shifty , scared my cat and my granny thought i had recorded crimewatch by mistake .Blimey that would be a much better description of Cameron and Osbourne and they are actually running the country.
As for Farage how lucid does it need to get when all he needs to say is that EU membership costs us more than we get out of it,is a trade scam that benefits the Germans and a foreign aid scam that benefits Eastern Europe.Under a system of Federal government and with an immigration policy that panders to the Socialist dreams of those like Merkel and Junker and Hollande.
Having said that unfortunately no Farage isn’t in the same league as Shore and Powell but probably the best we’re going to get among the present day options.
Maybe Nigel just doesn’t like bright lights. I don’t either, which adds to the reasons why I’ve tried to stay on working nights for the past quarter century. 
Winseer:
Maybe Nigel just doesn’t like bright lights. I don’t either, which adds to the reasons why I’ve tried to stay on working nights for the past quarter century.
To be fair boredwivdrivin has made some accurate points regarding Farage’s ideological free markets UK Unionist baggage which logically contradicts a credible out campaign.IE there is an obviously massive difference between Le Pen’s anti free market anti immigration position and reasoning for same regards ditching the EU.
As opposed to that of Farage’s contradictory anti free labour markets stance regards cheap East Euro labour and anti federalist stance regards the EU.Only to throw it all away on a pro globalist free markets stance.Which is crucifying our steel industry for example and logically doing nothing to solve the issues of UK commerce taking advantage of cheap foreign labour.In addition to a pro Federalist UK stance.Which also ironically threatens to keep us in the EU based on a Scottish balance of pro EU votes in the case of the very real possibility of a narrow margin being the deciding factor.
The logical result being jumping out of the frying pan of the German stasi run EU.Into the fire of the Chinese Communist Party run global free market economy.That’s assuming the UK ‘Union’ doesn’t force us to stay in the EU by default of the pro EU Scottish vote.
In fairness to Nige these were probably difficult bright lights to shine under .
He was stuck in a room with possibly the most modestly talented bunch of politicians ever assembled under 1 roof outside of parliament : 1 fat fool , 1 dim girl ,1 black comedian and 1 anonymous tory minister . possibly his spin doctors had been saying : appear reasonable , dont be shouty , dont bully , try looking human , listen , look statesman like . all things that dont come natural to Nige .
Then there is the problem of every English Question Time having to , bizarrely , have a Scottish politician present . So Nige only gets a slot at Llanelli !! Not his natural stomping ground .
Of course if he followed my advice form an English independance party , he would by default be a supporter of Welsh independance , and might well find this audience more sympathetic .
He could then form WIP ( welsh Ind Party) as a sister organisstion to EIP (Eng Ind Par) and should be able to wipe the floor with Plaid Cymru who seem to be the most ineffective political party in Britain since the BNP .