In or out of EU ? Poll

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
521

Winseer:
Yes, it does make sense that the US want to keep hold of Britain and it’s Trident - as something they don’t actually have themselves. In that regard, then of course we could get a situation where America is attacked, Europe is not, but we’d be “told” via NATO that we have to launch a retaliatory strike at whatever new target the US (through channels) give us. Would those channels operate though?

Each of our subs at sea has it’s own protocols with regards to “orders taken whilst at sea”. IF the chain of command is broken at the top, then on the day - our subs will be carrying out UK contigency orders ahead of US ones - which may well involve the UK leaving the US to burn, if they are attacked in a conflict we are otherwise not involved in.

Corbyns “I wouldn’t push the button” might not even arise!

“Someone else won’t push it not for him”. :smiley:

I’d be very surprised if our PM or military Chiefs even have access to the launch codes with the ‘independent’ deterrent just being a con to keep the electorate happy.While unless America descends into inter ethnic and/or Federalist anti Federalist internal warfare it’s difficult to see any circumstances whereby it would be worth us sitting back if someone decides to take out America because at that point the world wouldn’t be a very friendly place for the civilised western world to want to live in.Although on the other side of that coin I think America would rather take us out than take a hit in retaliation for a unilateral Brit launch against anyone,assuming the ‘independent’ deterrent really is that.In either case we don’t need to be part of the USE.Which is the real choice we face ‘if’ Cameron honours the promise of a referendum and that referendum isn’t rigged.Although unfortunately the US obviously regards secession and anti Federalism in whatever form as a threat and that’s probably the main issue that is actually keeping us in the scam and what is driving it,with everything else in the in campaign being a diversion from that fact. :bulb:

522

Carryfast:

boredwivdrivin:
the out vote has got to appeal to euro sceptic tories , labour and even greens (yes there are a few !)

it cant afford to offend any particular sectors of society , including that favourite of UKIP : women !

i personally would never dream of voting UKIP as most of their policies are utter idiot tripe .

needs someone who can appeal across age , ■■■ , class and race

all of these measures i think Farage fails on

In other words you’re saying lets ditch the EU in exchange for pandering to the home grown bleeding heart socialist,pro immigration,global warmist believer regime.In which case what would have changed. :confused: :unamused:

as i pointed out above UKIP does not have enough votes to win referendum alone (28% best ever share of vote) .

therefore OUT must indeed appeal to socialists , pro controlled immigrationers and climate change worriers .

UKIP domestic policies do not have wide appeal , and if OUT turns into a UKIP run campaign …

…IN will win

523

Guys lets forget NATO .

As Turkey and US are members it is irrelevant to EU membership issue .

expect more of this tho as campaign starts , OUT need to keep on message and have a strategy to deal with classic diversionary tactics .

the issue is we need democracy in England for English .

524

boredwivdrivin:

Carryfast:

boredwivdrivin:
the out vote has got to appeal to euro sceptic tories , labour and even greens (yes there are a few !)

it cant afford to offend any particular sectors of society , including that favourite of UKIP : women !

i personally would never dream of voting UKIP as most of their policies are utter idiot tripe .

needs someone who can appeal across age , ■■■ , class and race

all of these measures i think Farage fails on

In other words you’re saying lets ditch the EU in exchange for pandering to the home grown bleeding heart socialist,pro immigration,global warmist believer regime.In which case what would have changed. :confused: :unamused:

as i pointed out above UKIP does not have enough votes to win referendum alone (28% best ever share of vote) .

therefore OUT must indeed appeal to socialists , pro controlled immigrationers and climate change worriers .

UKIP domestic policies do not have wide appeal , and if OUT turns into a UKIP run campaign …

…IN will win

Or to look at it another way ‘if’ the out campaign turns into a socialist friendly pro immigration pro global warmist fest then we’ve got nothing to gain by leaving and who’s to say in that case it wouldn’t actually mean that the out campaign had been infiltrated by those with exactly the same aims as Merkel and Junker anyway.That is the issue which Farage needs to be wary of in the calls to change his stance.On that note there’s no way that Socialism and Nationalism can co exist without something dodgy being behind the idea.Bearing in mind that Socialism by definition means a world without national borders and therefore by default Federalism.

525

Carryfast:
Or to look at it another way ‘if’ the out campaign turns into a socialist friendly pro immigration pro global warmist fest then we’ve got nothing to gain by leaving

its is hardly likely to turn to this . and if it did OUT could not win either .

OUT needs a broad alliance to stop federalist EU and return English sovereignty . what ever happens afterwards is up to domestic ballot box .

you seem to be implying that OUT is a means for UKIP to impose its domestic policies ■■

surely you can see this is suicide , and will condemn us to EU servitude in perpetuity

Carryfast:
Bearing in mind that Socialism by definition means a world without national borders and therefore by default Federalism.

forget Socialism for a bit . there is no socialist party in England and in all the years of EU i have yet to see a full Socialist agenda . quite the opposite .

Socialism would require :

Nationalisation of major industries . Workers CoOps for small/medium industries .
agrarian land reform and dispersal to proles
abolishing stock market
Nationalisation of housing stock
Secular education & abolishing elitism in education
Equality for women .
Equality of incomes .
Single party rule .
Redistribution of wealth
Abolishing Privilege
Abolishing monarchy
leaving NATO and US cooperation

i dont see any of this happening anywhere in Europe . so we can agree its got nothing to do with socialism !

but we do see of course the expansion of borders . this is partly socialist ( but not defining of ), and i cannot think of any example of socialism (outside of India) granting freedom of movement like the EU is doing .

and of course if this border expansion was wholly socialists then it would not be presented as creation of a socialist block , it would be a reaction to spread of capitalism .

the EU does not seem anti capitalist . leaving EU allows us to make all decisions domestically , nothing else .

So arguing about socialism is detrimental to achieving an exit from EU …

…because we probably need some socialist voters to achieve a majority for exit .

526

boredwivdrivin:

Carryfast:
Or to look at it another way ‘if’ the out campaign turns into a socialist friendly pro immigration pro global warmist fest then we’ve got nothing to gain by leaving

its is hardly likely to turn to this . and if it did OUT could not win either .

OUT needs a broad alliance to stop federalist EU and return English sovereignty . what ever happens afterwards is up to domestic ballot box .

you seem to be implying that OUT is a means for UKIP to impose its domestic policies ■■

surely you can see this is suicide , and will condemn us to EU servitude in perpetuity

Carryfast:
Bearing in mind that Socialism by definition means a world without national borders and therefore by default Federalism.

forget Socialism for a bit . there is no socialist party in England and in all the years of EU i have yet to see a full Socialist agenda . quite the opposite .

Socialism would require :

Nationalisation of major industries . Workers CoOps for small/medium industries .
agrarian land reform and dispersal to proles
abolishing stock market
Nationalisation of housing stock
Secular education & abolishing elitism in education
Equality for women .
Equality of incomes .
Single party rule .
Redistribution of wealth
Abolishing Privilege
Abolishing monarchy
leaving NATO and US cooperation

i dont see any of this happening anywhere in Europe . so we can agree its got nothing to do with socialism !

but we do see of course the expansion of borders . this is partly socialist ( but not defining of ), and i cannot think of any example of socialism (outside of India) granting freedom of movement like the EU is doing .

and of course if this border expansion was wholly socialists then it would not be presented as creation of a socialist block , it would be a reaction to spread of capitalism .

the EU does not seem anti capitalist .

So arguing about socialism is detrimental to achieving an exit from EU …

…because we probably need some socialist voters to achieve a majority for exit .

Your banging your head against the wall
I class myself as a socialist in some form or other
I’m against the EU in a big way and there’s many more like me who’ll be voting to leave this Merkel led corrupt club
I do advocate some state owned industries as in energy and utility companies and public transport the mail industry and so on
But the resident know it all will soon be on here telling me I’m wrong and I’m a supporter of uncontrollable immigration and and open door policy
For which I don’t support either

527

would having Farage lead the out campaign stop you voting ■■

obviously , like me , you are not going to vote “IN” . but would you just not bother as you dont want to be seen endorsing Farage and his idiot policies ■■?

528

boredwivdrivin:
would having Farage lead the out campaign stop you voting ■■

obviously , like me , you are not going to vote “IN” . but would you just not bother as you dont want to be seen endorsing Farage and his idiot policies ■■?

I’d still vote out if Farage was leading the out campaign
The thing I’ve got in common with Farage is that we both want out that’s about it
I think Corbyn could pull off a great coup if he stuck to his personal beliefs and change party policy with a out campaign especially if Camoron sides with the in campaign as he says he’s going to

529

Corbyn is just an opposition MP . he has no strategy . he is blinded by his own moral values and metrosexual metropolitan opinions .

He needs to realise that the bedrock of his party is bluecollar workers who dont live in liberal london .

The vast majority of these people want out of EU .

Id vote OUT even if Farage and his mates leads campaign just like you , but i fear he will do more damage than good , and potentially cost us the vote

530

boredwivdrivin:
we probably need some socialist voters to achieve a majority for exit .

That’s as much an impossible contradiction as the idea of a Socialist,pro immigration,pro EU,Federalist Scottish Nationalist Party. :open_mouth: :laughing: Knowing how socialism works If it looks like a dodgy duck trying to infiltrate the out campaign,or in the SNP’s case a Socialist Party taking advantage of Nationalist feeling,and flies and quacks like one then its a dodgy duck.The reality is if Farage is daft enough to get taken in by that type of cynical attempt,to de rail the out campaign,or for that matter Carswell’s ■■■■■■■■ concerning Farage’s leadership,then we might as well join the East Euros like Dolph in at least trying to de rail Merkel’s and Junker’s etc socialist world without borders plan from within.

On that note I didn’t view Benn,Heffer or Shore as part of the above plan.IE they were actually Nationalists who just didn’t know it and ‘thought’ they were Socialists.Just as I did at the time.

In just the same way that Enoch Powell was a Nationalist who ‘thought’ he was a Con until he knew better.I’d put Farage as being closer to that ideal than Carswell. :bulb:

531

gazsa401:

boredwivdrivin:
would having Farage lead the out campaign stop you voting ■■

obviously , like me , you are not going to vote “IN” . but would you just not bother as you dont want to be seen endorsing Farage and his idiot policies ■■?

I’d still vote out if Farage was leading the out campaign
The thing I’ve got in common with Farage is that we both want out that’s about it
I think Corbyn could pull off a great coup if he stuck to his personal beliefs and change party policy with a out campaign especially if Camoron sides with the in campaign as he says he’s going to

Corbyn ditches the EU and replaces it with a home grown Socialist immigration policy and an ideological stance which is the antithesis of the nation state and national borders.What could possibly go wrong and what’s changed from Junker and Merkel being in charge. :unamused:

532

boredwivdrivin:
Corbyn is just an opposition MP . he has no strategy . he is blinded by his own moral values and metrosexual metropolitan opinions .

He needs to realise that the bedrock of his party is bluecollar workers who dont live in liberal london .

The vast majority of these people want out of EU .

Id vote OUT even if Farage and his mates leads campaign just like you , but i fear he will do more damage than good , and potentially cost us the vote

Again the blokes only been in the job 5 minutes he’s already getting rid of the Blairite ■■■■■ which ruined the party and totally forgot the blue collar folk of this country
I’ve posted on topics on the other side about who would other posters think should be in power but again there’s no response

533

Carryfast:

gazsa401:

boredwivdrivin:
would having Farage lead the out campaign stop you voting ■■

obviously , like me , you are not going to vote “IN” . but would you just not bother as you dont want to be seen endorsing Farage and his idiot policies ■■?

I’d still vote out if Farage was leading the out campaign
The thing I’ve got in common with Farage is that we both want out that’s about it
I think Corbyn could pull off a great coup if he stuck to his personal beliefs and change party policy with a out campaign especially if Camoron sides with the in campaign as he says he’s going to

Corbyn ditches the EU and replaces it with a home grown Socialist immigration policy and an ideological stance which is the antithesis of the nation state and national borders.What could possibly go wrong and what’s changed from Junker and Merkel being in charge. :unamused:

Again this country did well long before the likes of Merkel,Junker and the whole concept of the EU came along when it was just a common market
Again you come on here with your “my views are right” speeches well pray tell us what you have in mind and then I’ll put your name forward to lead the OUT campaign

534

gazsa401:
…
I’ve posted on topics on the other side about who would other posters think should be in power but again there’s no response

im not a labour party member , so really dont care about alternatives .

but i think they should have elected a female leader , the 2 who unfortunately ended up in the leadership race were ■■■■ out blairites , which sunk their chances .

overall the labour party needs to ditch the liberal polytechnic middle class people and reconnect with the working class .

out of 232 labour MPs , 213 have signed up to pro EU campaign

labourlist.org/2015/11/the-full- … -campaign/

hence why i am not going to rejoin labour anytime soon !!

535

gazsa401:
this country did well long before the likes of Merkel,Junker and the whole concept of the EU came along when it was just a common market
Again you come on here with your “my views are right” speeches well pray tell us what you have in mind and then I’ll put your name forward to lead the OUT campaign

What I’ve got in mind is what Le Pen is saying and to a lesser extent Farage.Not Corbyn’s bat zb Socialist ideology which would be no different to that of Merkel’s,Hollande’s or Junker’s in every way that matters like immigration and economic policy and national borders.The problem being that the Socialists think only they have the monopoly on what’s best for the working class thereby branding those like Le Pen as ‘far right’. :unamused:

536

Le Pens got as much chance of being the next Queen of England as being elected as a leader of a country just look at the recent French council elections
The French won’t want us to leave as they’re one of the biggest gainers from the CAP
Again you dismiss anyone who supports a fairer society
Really I don’t see many capitalists championing the side of the working man left to this shower of ■■■■ that’s in charge I can see we’ll have nothing left in this country because it’ll have all been sold off
This lot wants us all to have no rights in any shape or form more of a return to the mill owners work and poor houses

537

Carryfast:

boredwivdrivin:
we probably need some socialist voters to achieve a majority for exit .

That’s as much an impossible contradiction as the idea of a Socialist,pro immigration,pro EU,Federalist Scottish Nationalist Party. :open_mouth: :laughing:

nope , no contradiction . gazsa identifies himself as loosely socialist . he wants to vote OUT . the OUT campaign needs his vote .

in a referendum every vote counts , unlike parliamentary elections .

if you really want to succeed from EU, campaign requires gazsa vote and mine !

Carryfast:
Knowing how socialism works If it looks like a dodgy duck trying to infiltrate the out campaign,or in the SNP’s case a Socialist Party taking advantage of Nationalist feeling,and flies and quacks like one then its a dodgy duck.The reality is if Farage is daft enough to get taken in by that type of cynical attempt,to de rail the out campaign,or for that matter Carswell’s ■■■■■■■■ concerning Farage’s leadership,…

you clearly have NO idea how socialism works . you keep stating it is defined by rolling back the borders . ive given you some ideas of how to define socialism in list above . almost all are non existant in EU or UK .

and ofcourse , if you are correct in your definition as exclusive to ALL socialism , how do you explain Castro ( socialist , eventually) actively prevented immigration from Haiti and Dominicon Republic ; and refused to help their freedom struggles against extreme right wing US backed dictatorships of Trujillo or Papa Doc ■■

maybe Castro was not a good enough socialist for you . just a wet lefty perhaps ■■

Carryfast:
…then we might as well join the East Euros like Dolph in at least trying to de rail Merkel’s and Junker’s etc socialist world without borders plan from within.

you do realise what you have just said ■■

you have endorsed TROTSKYITE tactics in undermining EU :exclamation:

Trotsky was a very long term tactical genius . but even he would recognise this as a long shot , as by the time this battle is won : the war will be lost .

Carryfast:
On that note I didn’t view Benn,Heffer or Shore… Nationalists … Socialists.Just as I did at the
… Enoch Powell …Nationalist …Con … :bulb:

All this stuff is irrelevant to EU referendum , and our future . Not least because they are all DEAD !

you and your buddies in UKIP need to understand that your agenda overlaps other ideologies . and to be successful various individuals with opposing views need to work together to defeat the common enemy .

538

boredwivdrivin:

gazsa401:
…
I’ve posted on topics on the other side about who would other posters think should be in power but again there’s no response

im not a labour party member , so really dont care about alternatives .

but i think they should have elected a female leader , the 2 who unfortunately ended up in the leadership race were ■■■■ out blairites , which sunk their chances .

overall the labour party needs to ditch the liberal polytechnic middle class people and reconnect with the working class .

out of 232 labour MPs , 213 have signed up to pro EU campaign

labourlist.org/2015/11/the-full- … -campaign/

hence why i am not going to rejoin labour anytime soon !![/quote
There’s not many of today’s Labour MPs who were not selected by Blairs change in selecting candidates for MPs
This is now being changed where grassroot members can choose their own candidates and not have a unknown thrust on them
Again I don’t agree with all what Corbyn believes in but when he came to my hometown to talk it was quite refreshing in listening to a MP who actually listened and answered questions from the audience without going round the houses and trying to dodge a question
Which most politicians do nowadays also the increase in youngsters being drawn into politics

539

Carryfast, if there is Socialist country in Europe, thats UK. You are Socialist nanny state :smiling_imp:
Socialist and open borders are oxymoron, I grew up in Socialist country, Peoples Republic of Bulgaria, where borders were secured by fence and regular army with AK’s, MG’s and RPG’s guarding them. Where you cant even go to the border, 30-40km before that you would be stopped. My father had to get special police permission(this is how it looked socbg.com/2013/12/%D0%BE%D1%82%D … D0%B7.html) in order for us to go fishing close to Greek border.
There is nothing socialist about EU borders. I cant believe Im saying this, but I agree with boredwivdrivin regarding Socialism.

540

Dolph:
Carryfast, if there is Socialist country in Europe, thats UK. You are Socialist nanny state :smiling_imp:
Socialist and open borders are oxymoron, I grew up in Socialist country, Peoples Republic of Bulgaria, where borders were secured by fence and regular army with AK’s, MG’s and RPG’s guarding them. Where you cant even go to the border, 30-40km before that you would be stopped. My father had to get special police permission(this is how it looked socbg.com/2013/12/%D0%BE%D1%82%D … D0%B7.html) in order for us to go fishing close to Greek border.
There is nothing socialist about EU borders. I cant believe Im saying this, but I agree with boredwivdrivin regarding Socialism.

It’s a bit more complicated than that.Firstly the idea of the Eastern Bloc Iron Curtain etc was all about the the logical conclusion of what happens when Socialism tries to hide the benefits of the Capitalist system from its naive followers.Nothing to do with the ideology of Soviet type Federalism which was just a corruption of the usual socialist ideology of internationalism.

On that note trust me Corbyn is a Socialist and therefore ideologically internationalist ( actually anti nationalist ) in just the same way as Merkel and Junker are and anyone else who labels themselves a socialist and understands the definition of the word.While anyone who thinks that it’s possible to be ‘loosely’ socialist to the point of being in favour of national borders is either too naive to understand the meaning of socialism or they are lying.

noii.org.uk/files/socialism_and_controls.pdf