In or out of EU ? Poll

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
501

Stanley Knife:

The-Snowman:
I sure Cameron,with all the scare tactics he was deploying at the time, had NOTHING at all to do with her comments though :unamused:

You’re surely not suggesting that our Dave would lower himself to underhand scurrilous tactics with
the Scottish ego and the German jackboot? :unamused:

Perish the thought

Stanley Knife:
all the In crowd have to do is play on the fears of the unknown after exit. And as facts and figures :unamused: will be thrown at the voting public at such a rate so as to confuse fear will be a comfort blanket for a great deal of voters to hang on to.

Thats pretty much what happened up here but some people are so warped they think all sorts of guff that they WANT to be true and spout it as fact

502

Stanley Knife:

boredwivdrivin:
probably Carswell? (UKIP MP) would be a better figurehead amongst the politicians. he seems more rational and more conversationalist.

The argument within certain circles is that Carswell is a Tory plant, put there purely to disrupt the running of UKIP’s machine.

His remarks about the leadership of UKIP on the very day when they should have been concentrating on Cameron’s charade in Brussels questions his motives. The fact he doesn’t state on any of his social media pages that he is a UKIP MP is curious for a self-serving politician. His defection looked like a great coup at the time but he’s shown himself to be a naive self-promoter with no self-awareness and no political acuity.

Just look at how the Tories threw the kitchen sink at Mark Reckless and Nigel Farage at the GE, but virtually ignored Carswell.

I think Carswell was expected to be “One of several” MPs of UKIP, which, as you say above, was going to be devoid of Reckless and Farage. Perhaps a party of 6-10 UKIP MPs was expected, to which Carswell would then effectively be leader of, being the senior man. These “additional” MPs expected to take seats like Grimsby, Thurrock, Portsmouth, etc - never materialized of course, leaving Carswell looking rather daft as an infiltration agent to an otherwise empty party…

503

Stanley Knife:

boredwivdrivin:
probably Carswell? (UKIP MP) would be a better figurehead amongst the politicians. he seems more rational and more conversationalist.

The argument within certain circles is that Carswell is a Tory plant, put there purely to disrupt the running of UKIP’s machine.

His remarks about the leadership of UKIP on the very day when they should have been concentrating on Cameron’s charade in Brussels questions his motives. The fact he doesn’t state on any of his social media pages that he is a UKIP MP is curious for a self-serving politician. His defection looked like a great coup at the time but he’s shown himself to be a naive self-promoter with no self-awareness and no political acuity.

Just look at how the Tories threw the kitchen sink at Mark Reckless and Nigel Farage at the GE, but virtually ignored Carswell.

+1

It’s bad enough that Farage doesn’t realise that the UK is as much a dead duck as the EU regarding all the downsides of Federal/Unionist government.Without then also being naive enough to trade UKIP’s core principles for a worthless seat in parliament,by a Con defector who’s done nothing but ■■■■■ and moan about UKIP’s stance and leadership etc etc since he arrived.

On that note while I’d agree with boredwivdrivin’s view regarding ditching the UK,the idea that Farage isn’t good enough to lead the out campaign and UKIP and not kicking out Carswell back to the Cons is just political suicide for the Party.

504
505

Carryfast:
the idea that Farage isn’t good enough to lead the out campaign and UKIP and not kicking out Carswell back to the Cons is just political suicide for the Party.

Farage is a politician, in the true sense of the word, and an excellent salesman, but a lousy strategist. The OUT campaign need to find someone of the ilk of Linton Crosby; devious, underhanded and conniving - but a past master of strategy.

506

Stanley Knife:
Farage is a politician, in the true sense of the word, and an excellent salesman, but a lousy strategist. The OUT campaign need to find someone of the ilk of Linton Crosby; devious, underhanded and conniving - but a past master of strategy.

Why would the out campaign need devious conniving underhandedness.When it just needs to state and rely on the unarguable facts that we’re being ripped off as a net contributor,in a scam which threatens us with trade sanctions,unless we keep paying and submit to Federal EU rule.Or other than trying to infiltrate the opposition ( unlikely to succeed ) where and how would it be applied and what difference would it make anyway ?.While Farage is the most effective weapon in the case of the former and the opposition knows it.

507

Carryfast:
…the idea that Farage isn’t good enough to lead the out campaign and UKIP and not kicking out Carswell back to the Cons is just political suicide for the Party.

Stanley Knife:
Farage is a politician, in the true sense of the word, and an excellent salesman, but a lousy strategist. The OUT campaign need to find someone of the ilk of Linton Crosby; devious, underhanded and conniving - but a past master of strategy.

Winseer:
I think Carswell was expected to be “One of several” MPs of UKIP,… These “additional” MPs expected to take seats like Grimsby, Thurrock, Portsmouth, etc - never materialized of course, leaving Carswell looking rather daft as an infiltration agent to an otherwise empty party…

the facts are that UKIPs best ever result is 28% of vote in euro 2014
telegraph.co.uk/news/politic … tions.html

this is nowhere near enough to win referendum !

the out vote has got to appeal to euro sceptic tories , labour and even greens (yes there are a few !)

it cant afford to offend any particular sectors of society , including that favourite of UKIP : women !

i personally would never dream of voting UKIP as most of their policies are utter idiot tripe .

Stanley Knife:
The In crowd don’t have to provide any arguments for staying in. As a country we have been trapped inside a darkened room called the EEC/EU; all the In crowd have to do is play on the fears of the unknown after exit. And as facts and figures :unamused: will be thrown at the voting public at such a rate so as to confuse fear will be a comfort blanket for a great deal of voters to hang on to.

+1

““do is play on the fears of the unknown after exit.””

this is a terrible english disease : fear of change .

if Farage does his normal campaign of negatitity we will lose .

OUT has to have a positive message and paint a picture of a better future outside euroland

something like “yes we can” from Obama .

OUT needs to be savvy in the new media dynamics : arsebook and twitting and all that strange stuff . it needs to have someone not carrying baggage . someone who is not seen to be doing it for political advantage , rather for this countries future .

needs someone who can appeal across age , ■■■ , class and race

all of these measures i think Farage fails on

Winseer:
I thought Dyson was threatening to pull all factories out of the UK outright - IF we “voted to leave”?

nope . he got a gripe with the germans . thinks they are running the whole barrel of nonsense for their own advantage . fancy !!

thisismoney.co.uk/money/news … years.html
thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/poli … 456435.ece

508

Let’s leave out those of us “bolted onto” the “out” or “in” decision for the moment…

Taking a look at those who’ve “yet to decide” - there presumably is a reason for their reticence to date:-

"I don’t know WHAT to vote for or WHAT to believe or WHO to trust…

If you are an employer, you’ll be wanting to stay in. You’ll tell your employees that “if we don’t stay in, I’ll have to lay you off” rather than “If we leave, I may have to pay you higher wages, or go under from lack of staff” which is probably nearer the truth.

If you are an employee - you might feel that you’d get a decent wage rise - if it were not for the abundance of immigrant staff waiting to take your job the moment you even sniff at a pay rise…
Best bet for you then is “out” - but will your employer let you make that kind of decision as a “grunt” as it were? - Chances are, the average employer will encourage the average employee into a state of apathy… “No show” is a vote for the status quo after all. That is, we’re in now - and would stay in on a low turnout…

So… You’re self employed, a pensioner, retired, still at school, in higher education, or on the dole…

It’s all down to you folks - but it’s minus those “still at school” now, as that 16 & 17 year olds getting the vote has been nipped in the bud already.

A pensioner is the easiest to lie to.
Someone retired is easiest to get to “not bother turning up to vote”.
Someone in higher education is still blaming Nick Clegg for how expensive their education has become - rather than foreign students being able to bid-up the prices of courses, accommodation, and even the price of a second hand car!

On the dole? - There’s talk of Cameron not being able to cut benefits for immigrants - unless he blanket cuts them for EVERYONE - which will include YOU of course.

The referendum is winnable. Apathy can still lose it for us all though.

509

Yes i agree with you its winable .

But it is loseable as well .

BBC report says 75% unsure or undecided .

Im worried as , like u , i realise this is a once only chance in a lifetime to secure our future .

Im scared a shouty pensioner , like farage , could do more harm than good . particularly amongst the metrosexual city dwellers , and the scared of change wierdos .

Thats why i think OUT must be led by a non political highly respectable person who sings a positive message and has the brains to develop a winning strategy .

Certainly a mandelson/alastair campbell type rapid rebutal unit is needed .

A positive catchy OUT philosophy is required that is easily understood , and that forces IN to go negative and shouty .

A fund raising process needs to be developed as IN have almost unlimited resources .

I have no idea of the answers , i just feel that UKIP dont have them either

510

As the European Union faces the worst and most dangerous crisis since its creation, not only is Britain refusing to help, it is actually using this historic moment of weakness to extract “concessions” from its fellow members. This is the back story to the “Brexit” referendum, in which the government is threatening to leave the EU unless its demands for a “better deal for Britain” are met. Indeed, why merely kick a man while he’s down if you can go through his wallet too?
This is why the best way forward for Europe is to threaten to hit the English as hard as we can. We must stop treating membership of the EU as a favour granted by England, and instead make the English feel their vulnerability and dependence.

First and foremost, this means a change of tone. For many mainland Europeans the EU offers the promise of freedom from the threat of nationalism. But the English have a different experience. They are taught to believe that nationalism is what saved them from Adolf Hitler and, as a consequence, they see no need for a post-national political entity. This is why for England, the EU is an economic rather than a cultural and political project. Read pro-Europe newspapers such as the Financial Times or listen to English pro-Europe politicians, and every argument is framed around the country’s national interest.

But alas, what a missed opportunity this referendum is. A child can see that the EU needs fundamental reform and just imagine for a moment that England had argued not for a better deal for Britain, but for all of us Europeans.

theguardian.com/commentisfre … cameron-eu

511

Dolph:
As the European Union faces the worst and most dangerous crisis since its creation, not only is Britain refusing to help, it is actually using this historic moment of weakness to extract “concessions” from its fellow members. This is the back story to the “Brexit” referendum, in which the government is threatening to leave the EU unless its demands for a “better deal for Britain” are met. Indeed, why merely kick a man while he’s down if you can go through his wallet too?
This is why the best way forward for Europe is to threaten to hit the English as hard as we can. We must stop treating membership of the EU as a favour granted by England, and instead make the English feel their vulnerability and dependence.

First and foremost, this means a change of tone. For many mainland Europeans the EU offers the promise of freedom from the threat of nationalism. But the English have a different experience. They are taught to believe that nationalism is what saved them from Adolf Hitler and, as a consequence, they see no need for a post-national political entity. This is why for England, the EU is an economic rather than a cultural and political project. Read pro-Europe newspapers such as the Financial Times or listen to English pro-Europe politicians, and every argument is framed around the country’s national interest.

But alas, what a missed opportunity this referendum is. A child can see that the EU needs fundamental reform and just imagine for a moment that England had argued not for a better deal for Britain, but for all of us Europeans.

theguardian.com/commentisfre … cameron-eu

More lies and ■■■■■■■■

512

Of course, anything that you don’t like is lies.

513

Dolph:
Of course, anything that you don’t like is lies.

Its NATO that’s kept peace in Europe not the EU plus why isn’t there any mention of Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland wanting to quit the EU?
Again there’s many Scots Welsh and Northern Irish people who want to leave this corrupt club
Where’s all the so called other EU countries other than a handful that are trying to stop Isis
Your rose tinted ideas as in a open border policy from Turkey to across Europe as made it a open door for any would be loon or fanatic

514

The EU needs reform for sure - but those that can deliver it are in a position where they don’t need to offer such reforms.

Only being voted out of office would clear their minds, and then get them to campaign for a “vote us back in for the reforms you wanted”.

No deal buster!

If you wouldn’t do it whilst you were IN power - then we’re not going to re-elect you now you’re out of power - on the off-chance you’re telling the truth now!

It’s remarkable how being “voted out” clears a politician’s mind as to “why we lost”. Shame they couldn’t realize beforehand, and bust a nut getting what was wanted of them done BEFORE the end.

This, of course, is where Cleggy went wrong. He used his period of influence at the Cabinet table - getting what done in the end? - YES to the big “Student Fee” price he had to politically pay - but then pushed AV rather than PR - which of course met with utter rejection at the public level. The public now perceive Cleggy as a failure as a result, and 41 of his Libdems paid the price for that failure - but not him. Word has it that Cameron “made sure Cleggy didn’t lose HIS seat” - Just his colleagues, including of course Vince Cable…

Cameron doesn’t need to “lose” if the EU referendum goes against the way he wants… All he needs to do is jump on his own people’s bandwagon - and be a winner himself!

What if in the very near future, Cameron suddenly announces that "I’ve asked the EU for reforms - They’ve said ‘we’ll take a look after you’ve had your referendum’… So we go into that referendum not officially knowing where we stand (nothing actually offered whatsoever!) Cameron might well postpone the referendum to the next year, announce that he’s now in favour of Brexit himself, and state to the EU that this “extended deadline” is in case they’d like to put something on the table in the meantime… Which they indeed MIGHT - If our very own Prime Minister starts listening to his rank-and-file people by the millions rather than a few business leaders and exporters in their thousands…

PROMISES of “looking at future deals” won’t do! We want it agreed AND more importantly - IMPLEMENTED before we can trust anything the EU offers Cameron - let alone what he offers the rest of the British Public!

The knives will really be out for those politicians that agree to some lacklustre “promise of a promise” deal that will disappear into the morning mist as soon as we’re daft enough to “just about stay in by a small margin” as was the case in the Scottish referendum… Politician’s job done there getting one over everyone too! :frowning:

515

gazsa401:

Dolph:
Of course, anything that you don’t like is lies.

Its NATO that’s kept peace in Europe not the EU plus why isn’t there any mention of Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland wanting to quit the EU?
Again there’s many Scots Welsh and Northern Irish people who want to leave this corrupt club
Where’s all the so called other EU countries other than a handful that are trying to stop Isis
Your rose tinted ideas as in a open border policy from Turkey to across Europe as made it a open door for any would be loon or fanatic

Its not NATO that kept peace to be exact, but nuclear deterrent of several countries, including UK. If it was down to non conventional war, Warsaw pact troops were going to drink tea at the English channel in 48hrs. :smiling_imp:
Not enough Scott’s were against EU, if there were we would not have see the England scare campaign last year to keep Scotland in the union(UK).
Well ISIS was crated manly by US, UK and France actions, who brought destruction to Iraq, Syria and Libya. Your mess, fix it! Why all of us should suffer because of your imperialistic campaigns. The main supporters(terrorists, guns, money etc) of ISIS in the region are Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, good old friends of UK and US!
Well we live very well with open door policy, until this summer, when Merkel decided to take Syria refugees. Most countries open their borders because they don’t want them on their territory, if all want to go to Germany. On that note Bulgaria borders remain close and guarded for the safe of EU! Also on that note, you have more muslims (and home grown terrorists) from outside of EU then most nations in EU, yet you are not in Schengen and you can control your borders from non EU migrant, non EU is where the muslims are coming.

516

boredwivdrivin:
the out vote has got to appeal to euro sceptic tories , labour and even greens (yes there are a few !)

it cant afford to offend any particular sectors of society , including that favourite of UKIP : women !

i personally would never dream of voting UKIP as most of their policies are utter idiot tripe .

needs someone who can appeal across age , ■■■ , class and race

all of these measures i think Farage fails on

In other words you’re saying lets ditch the EU in exchange for pandering to the home grown bleeding heart socialist,pro immigration,global warmist believer regime.In which case what would have changed. :confused: :unamused:

517

It’s quite possible that Trident is actually the most effective of ALL the nuclear deterrents currently deployed in the world today.

Consider this: A country currently nowhere near being our enemy suddenly attacks us with it’s own more limited nuclear arsenal… Our trident subs can re-target to bring damnation down upon any country in the world it chooses - at the drop of a hat. America can’t re-configure it’s Titans for France - should their unexpected stab in the back come from that direction for example… :open_mouth:

It’s not “matter of opinion” that out “triple redundant at sea” system more than anything else keeps Britain on the top shelf today. It’s fact pure and simple. The moment we ditch Trident, and demote ourselves to mere European City State status - we will last as long in the next conflict in the Euroland theatre of war - as Luxembourg or Monaco.
Any suggestion that we get rid of it therefore - is a totemic throwing away of one’s electoral chances into the bin.

Cameron might well have been resting on his laurels after the election of Corbyn, who’ll be the most effective campaigner for the Tory party since Michael Foot in 1983, and his famous “Longest Suicide Note in History” right in the wake of the Falklands War as it was then.

The danger - to see it from the electorate’s point of view here - is that the next government of this country will be Osbourne as PM, who having failed to get a majority - ends up in Coalition with the SNP - the prospects of which so many voted for Cameron last year to prevent!

Trident is a polarizing issue yes… Some decisions however need to be taken away from the electorate for their own good. This is one of them.
About the only positive aspect of being in NATO and the EU - is that at least they do not pressure us to give up our soul as a once-great nation - as well as our legal sovereignty - which we appear to have done some time since. It’s supposed to be “not too late to get it back” - But …we’ll see.

518

Dolph:

gazsa401:

Dolph:
Of course, anything that you don’t like is lies.

Its NATO that’s kept peace in Europe not the EU plus why isn’t there any mention of Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland wanting to quit the EU?
Again there’s many Scots Welsh and Northern Irish people who want to leave this corrupt club
Where’s all the so called other EU countries other than a handful that are trying to stop Isis
Your rose tinted ideas as in a open border policy from Turkey to across Europe as made it a open door for any would be loon or fanatic

Its not NATO that kept peace to be exact, but nuclear deterrent of several countries, including UK. If it was down to non conventional war, Warsaw pact troops were going to drink tea at the English channel in 48hrs. :smiling_imp:
Not enough Scott’s were against EU, if there were we would not have see the England scare campaign last year to keep Scotland in the union(UK).
Well ISIS was crated manly by US, UK and France actions, who brought destruction to Iraq, Syria and Libya. Your mess, fix it! Why all of us should suffer because of your imperialistic campaigns. The main supporters(terrorists, guns, money etc) of ISIS in the region are Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, good old friends of UK and US!
Well we live very well with open door policy, until this summer, when Merkel decided to take Syria refugees. Most countries open their borders because they don’t want them on their territory, if all want to go to Germany. On that note Bulgaria borders remain close and guarded for the safe of EU! Also on that note, you have more muslims (and home grown terrorists) from outside of EU then most nations in EU, yet you are not in Schengen and you can control your borders from non EU migrant, non EU is where the muslims are coming.

To be fair ‘if’ we’d have had the all out conventional war between Israel and the US v Russia and its Arab allies that we needed in 1973 I’d guess that the German border with France would have been as far as the Warsaw Pact got.Before America and us took them apart in a war on two fronts both in the Middle East and in Europe.IE we certainly couldn’t have defeated Russia on its own turf but we’d have had a good chance of stopping any expansionist invasion plans.On that note could Russia really have trusted its WP allies like Poland to not turn against them.

While you seem to be a bit selective in obviously ignoring the historic contribution that Russia and its East Euro allies have made to destabilising and causing the mess in the Middle East by arming the Arabs to the teeth in an anti semitic attempt to wipe out Israel and interfere with Western oil supply interests.Which is obviously ongoing with Russia’s alliance with Iran and America stupidly answering that by allying itself with the equally bat zb crazy wahabbist Saudis.Instead of the West and Russia getting together to disarm all of the different Islamic Middle Eastern factions.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with the question of us subjecting ourselves to the Federalist mess that is the EU and it’s government.

519

Winseer:
It’s quite possible that Trident is actually the most effective of ALL the nuclear deterrents currently deployed in the world today.

Consider this: A country currently nowhere near being our enemy suddenly attacks us with it’s own more limited nuclear arsenal… Our trident subs can re-target to bring damnation down upon any country in the world it chooses - at the drop of a hat. America can’t re-configure it’s Titans for France - should their unexpected stab in the back come from that direction for example… :open_mouth:

It’s not “matter of opinion” that out “triple redundant at sea” system more than anything else keeps Britain on the top shelf today. It’s fact pure and simple. The moment we ditch Trident, and demote ourselves to mere European City State status - we will last as long in the next conflict in the Euroland theatre of war - as Luxembourg or Monaco.
Any suggestion that we get rid of it therefore - is a totemic throwing away of one’s electoral chances into the bin.

Cameron might well have been resting on his laurels after the election of Corbyn, who’ll be the most effective campaigner for the Tory party since Michael Foot in 1983, and his famous “Longest Suicide Note in History” right in the wake of the Falklands War as it was then.

The danger - to see it from the electorate’s point of view here - is that the next government of this country will be Osbourne as PM, who having failed to get a majority - ends up in Coalition with the SNP - the prospects of which so many voted for Cameron last year to prevent!

Trident is a polarizing issue yes… Some decisions however need to be taken away from the electorate for their own good. This is one of them.
About the only positive aspect of being in NATO and the EU - is that at least they do not pressure us to give up our soul as a once-great nation - as well as our legal sovereignty - which we appear to have done some time since. It’s supposed to be “not too late to get it back” - But …we’ll see.

Ironically Trident is in reality just an extension of the US’s nuclear deterrent under American rules of engagement that would realistically only allow it to be launched in ‘retaliation’ for a strike on the US.Not as a first strike pre emptive or even retaliatory defence assett to defend us.At least if it involves the implication of retaliation against the US.

While if the aim is to push back against the Federalist ambitions of people like Merkel and Junker etc.Then there’s not much point in looking for guidance or help from America bearing in mind that it killed a large proportion of its own population in real terms in exactly that aim.On that note I’d trust Le Pen and Farage more than I’d trust those like Obama.

520

Yes, it does make sense that the US want to keep hold of Britain and it’s Trident - as something they don’t actually have themselves. In that regard, then of course we could get a situation where America is attacked, Europe is not, but we’d be “told” via NATO that we have to launch a retaliatory strike at whatever new target the US (through channels) give us. Would those channels operate though?

Each of our subs at sea has it’s own protocols with regards to “orders taken whilst at sea”. IF the chain of command is broken at the top, then on the day - our subs will be carrying out UK contigency orders ahead of US ones - which may well involve the UK leaving the US to burn, if they are attacked in a conflict we are otherwise not involved in.

Corbyns “I wouldn’t push the button” might not even arise!

“Someone else won’t push it not for him”. :smiley: