muckles:
Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:10 pm2 months, 14 pages and nearly 400 replies, Not bad for a thread where the OP started it off by writing:
bald bloke:
No need to comment as a lot of comments have been made on another thread.Just a simple vote will do.
I put something similar the other day, the reply is at the top of the page.
BillyHunt:
I wouldnât have thought you could hijack a system thatâs already in place. And how can the immigrant vote sway an election away from the indigenous population give the huge disparity of numbers involved? If the locals canât ge bothered to vote, like some on here, whoâs fault is that? Luckily in the French elections they did come out & vote. Face it, even they donât want them running the place.
The âsystem thatâs in placeâ is âsupposedâ to be a ânationalâ vote for a ânationalâ government.The system certainly has arguably been hijacked when that strictly defined electoral process gets turned into a vote for the removal of national sovereignty in the form of Federalism and/or opening that process up to the interests of the pro immigration agenda in all its forms.While the figures provided suggest that there are more who want the FN in power than Hollandeâs Socialists.The obvious question then being why would the UMP/Republicans want to do dodgy deals with the less voter popular Socialists than with the more voter popular FN.
theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ⌠e27628747/
Which leaves the next question,why is the idea of a French government to rule France not a European one and French jobs for French workers and stopping an obvious plan to alter the demographic of the country in a way which dilutes the level of the indigenous demographic v immigrant one,being branded as supposedly far right/anti working class.Assuming that the definition of âleftâ means whatâs good for the working class ?.Which suggests that even the terms âleftâ and ârightâ have been hijacked by the pro immigration/Federalist agenda in just the same way as the electoral process has. 
The answer to your first Q is easy, they are politicians first & foremost. To that end, once they are in they want to stay in, doing virtually anything to achieve that personal goal. If you ever back a winner at an election you will see how they will do the same.
The answer to your second Q is? I canât see the Q in your ramble.
BillyHunt:
The answer to your first Q is easy, they are politicians first & foremost. To that end, once they are in they want to stay in, doing virtually anything to achieve that personal goal. If you ever back a winner at an election you will see how they will do the same.
The answer to your second Q is? I canât see the Q in your ramble.
As I said co operating with the less voter popular socialists to block the FN being in its more voter popular rightful place is neither democratic or âbacking a winnerâ.
While it seems obvious that branding the FN as supposedly âfar rightâ is all part of that.In which case the question as to why should the FNâs policies be branded as âfar rightâ,as opposed to left,and why should the Republican/Socialist alliance be considered as being supposedly âleftâ of the FN,under all normal definitions of the two terms,seems simple and clear enough.IE what is supposedly âgoodâ/âbetterâ for the French working class in the Republican/Socialist agenda v that of the FN ?.
Thatâs as maybe, but their, the incumbent politicians, main aim has been achieved, they still have their seats while the âpopularâ party are on the outside looking in. Again. It doesnât have to be fair, itâs politics, and any party, be it ukip or fn, need to get seats otherwise you get nothing.
BillyHunt:
Thatâs as maybe, but their, the incumbent politicians, main aim has been achieved, they still have their seats while the âpopularâ party are on the outside looking in. Again. It doesnât have to be fair, itâs politics, and any party, be it ukip or fn, need to get seats otherwise you get nothing.
If it ainât fair,in the form of a direct proportional link between voter popularity and representation in government,then it ainât democracy.
Which then leaves the inconvenient ongoing question as to what is it that defines the FN as supposedly being to the so called âfar rightâ of the Republican/Socialist alliance ?.
On the basis of the definition of âleftâ being whatâs best for the indigenous French working class under their own democratically accountable sovereign national government.
As opposed to the status quo of Federal EU government control which puts foreign outside bankers and immigrant interests ahead of those of the indigenous working class population.
Britain would be landed with ÂŁ11bn in new tariffs if it left the EU and did not get a free trade agreement, according to the leader of the group campaigning to stay in. Lord Rose, who heads Britain Stronger in Europe, published research suggesting that the UK would have to begin trading with the EU using World Trade Organisation rules, which would cost businesses and consumers more.
Speaking as David Cameron heads to Brussels for two days of talks on Britainâs future in the EU, the businessman said that the campaigns arguing that Britain should leave the EU are proposing a specific deal: ending all budget contributions, ending free movement and repatriating economic regulations while retaining full access to the single market.
âThe [Leave Europe] campaignsâ proposals are a pipedream. They do not have a credible or achievable alternative which can replicate, let alone improve upon, the benefits the single market brings, and if they were to pursue their terms as currently proposed there would be a real risk of Britain leaving Europe with no trade deal at all,â Rose said.
âThe cost of failure to secure a trade deal would be huge: family finances and Britainâs economy would be under threat. Britain would move to trading with the EU according to World Trade Organisation rules.â
theguardian.com/politics/201 ⌠e-research
This will never happen(bold text), either UK will be out of EU with all of its consequences including no free access to EU market or will remain in EU. You canât pick and choose which principles to follow and which to ignoreâŚ
Dolph:
Britain would be landed with ÂŁ11bn in new tariffs if it left the EU and did not get a free trade agreement
The UK imports more from the EU than it exports so if Britain is landed with ÂŁ11bn of new tariffs then the EU will have ÂŁ15bn of new tariffs from us. â â â for tat stupidity.
Free trade agreements would be signed within a month of us coming out; a lot of companies cash flow would be destroyed if we were to wait the stipulated two years for the process of removal from the EU to take place.
Jonathan Portes is as far to the left of the bleeding heart brigade as you can get but even he has been querying the disparity between official immigration statistics and the number of new National Insurance numbers issued. In an FOI request to HMRC he asked how many new NI numbers issued to migrants are active. HMRC refused to release the data, the excuse is unbelievable.
â⌠following the General Election, there is an active negotiation process at an international level in which UK Ministers and officials are engaged to secure support from the European Commission and other Member States for changes in EU law governing EU migrantsâ access to benefits in the UK, in line with the Governmentâs manifesto commitments. The information is being used to inform the development of policy options as part of the negotiation process and therefore relates to the formulation of Government policy. HMRC continues to believe that releasing information in the form requested would, at this stage, be unhelpful to the negotiation process.â
Stanley Knife:
Dolph:
Britain would be landed with ÂŁ11bn in new tariffs if it left the EU and did not get a free trade agreementThe UK imports more from the EU than it exports so if Britain is landed with ÂŁ11bn of new tariffs then the EU will have ÂŁ15bn of new tariffs from us. â â â for tat stupidity.
Free trade agreements would be signed within a month of us coming out; a lot of companies cash flow would be destroyed if we were to wait the stipulated two years for the process of removal from the EU to take place.
Not â â â for tat if businesses move to mainland Europe after Brexit, or bankrupt if stay because of high EU trade tariffs. UK imports 45% of all of its goods from EU, this amounts to 8% of all EU export. Who do you think will be hurt more? And how do you know what and when will be signed, you have crystal ball or something? Because in order to have free trade agreement, you have to sign up to EU riles, like NOR, SUI and Iceland did. Who not only have free movement of EU citizens, but are in Schengen as well. Do you think with the politicians you have you can squeeze EU to grant to better trade deals then its own member states. You will be non EU state and direct competition to all of the rest, who in their right mind will do that. Im assuming you will reject EEA, because of the things I said earlier - free movemement, Schengen etc.
The choice is all your, just make sure you know all the facts before going to the election bootâs.
Dolph:
And how do you know what and when will be signed, you have crystal ball or something? Because in order to have free trade agreement, you have to sign up to EU riles, like NOR, SUI and Iceland did.
The EU stipulates that you must sign up to the EU rules, but those rules have never been tested. If a big player like the UK refused to sign up do you seriously think the major companies within the EU and UK would cease trading immediately. The EU is a political and bureaucratic football that can be tossed aside at will, but business is business!
Im assuming you will reject EEA, because of the things I said earlier - free movemement, Schengen etc.
The choice is all your, just make sure you know all the facts before going to the election bootâs.
Iâve spent the past 30 years wanting out of this mess, Iâm certainly not going to allow your âfactsâ to get in the way.
And yes I would certainly reject EEA - and as for Schengen, thatâs dead in the water now.
Stanley Knife:
Dolph:
And how do you know what and when will be signed, you have crystal ball or something? Because in order to have free trade agreement, you have to sign up to EU riles, like NOR, SUI and Iceland did.The EU stipulates that you must sign up to the EU rules, but those rules have never been tested. If a big player like the UK refused to sign up do you seriously think the major companies within the EU and UK would cease trading immediately. The EU is a political and bureaucratic football that can be tossed aside at will, but business is business!
No they wont cease trading, simply you will be hit with 20%+ import tariffs as non EU importer, in order to stay competitive and keep prices low your tycoons will import cheap labor from Asia, Africa and S.America, someone have to replace the 2 million EE, right. And you will end up in worst situation, another poster here said he prefers Afghaniâs and Indians instead of Bulgarians, Romanians and Polish. Well I wish you luck.
Thereâs zero chance of reversing the immigration already done.
WHY then does everyone bang on about THAT when itâs like trying to get the genii back in the bottle?
All that can be done at this late stage is to halt further stragglers to the party, and the most important issue of all? - CEASE paying the EU for âBeing a Memberâ.
You wouldnât pay a hitman to murder you, and you wouldnât write your boss a letter asking to be sacked - so WHY do we stay a member of the EU - just to lose so much money that âThereâs none for public services anywhereâ?
If tariffs on EU goods went up âonce we leftâ - Weâd just stop buying it anymore, and it would be the EU that loses out rather than the UK, whoâd just re-source the same goods from further afieldâŚ
Dolph:
Stanley Knife:
Dolph:
Britain would be landed with ÂŁ11bn in new tariffs if it left the EU and did not get a free trade agreementThe UK imports more from the EU than it exports so if Britain is landed with ÂŁ11bn of new tariffs then the EU will have ÂŁ15bn of new tariffs from us. â â â for tat stupidity.
Free trade agreements would be signed within a month of us coming out; a lot of companies cash flow would be destroyed if we were to wait the stipulated two years for the process of removal from the EU to take place.
Not â â â for tat if businesses move to mainland Europe after Brexit, or bankrupt if stay because of high EU trade tariffs. UK imports 45% of all of its goods from EU, this amounts to 8% of all EU export. Who do you think will be hurt more? And how do you know what and when will be signed, you have crystal ball or something? Because in order to have free trade agreement, you have to sign up to EU riles, like NOR, SUI and Iceland did. Who not only have free movement of EU citizens, but are in Schengen as well. Do you think with the politicians you have you can squeeze EU to grant to better trade deals then its own member states. You will be non EU state and direct competition to all of the rest, who in their right mind will do that. Im assuming you will reject EEA, because of the things I said earlier - free movemement, Schengen etc.
The choice is all your, just make sure you know all the facts before going to the election bootâs.
Blimey Dolph wonât you ever give up on this bs trade war argument.Your comparison is based on an apples v oranges comparison of total EU trade v UK.In which case you seem to be selectively happy to use that EU figure when comparing UK exports but not when comparing EU exports to us.IE the EU hits us we hit Germany the East Euros being just an irrelevant side show to that.The fact is weâre in trade deficit not surplus with the EU much of that trade deficit being made up of the liability of our trade with Germany.In which case a trade war can only benefit us while hitting the EUâs major net exporters to us like Germany disproportionately the hardest which is the point youâve conveniently missed.
On that note if getting our manufacturing industries up and running again is the aim then such a trade war with the EU is a positive not a negative.Based on the simple mathematical fact that the domestic market was and is worth more to us than the zb EU one ever was or will ever be.
Winseer:
Thereâs zero chance of reversing the immigration already done.WHY then does everyone bang on about THAT when itâs like trying to get the genii back in the bottle?
Thatâs only the case so long as people are happy to go along with the Socialists calling anyone who disagrees with that idea âracistsâ.
Dolph:
Next century British drivers on the waiting line for Schengen visa in order to enter France or Holland, in other words mainland Europe, yeah right.
Hahaha British Government is notorious of screwing working people. Without EU British people will be in a lot worst situation then today, but then you will have no one to blame for.
Its easier for me to copy-paste comment I agree with from a Brit:Well andrew garner, you might then ask why it is the UK Government that has been the most determined opponent of the EU Social Chapter; Working Time Directive; and numerous other workerâs rights benefits enjoyed by the majority of other EU member states.
EU capitalists as you put it are actually far more socially considerate and believe in high wage economies such as Germany and France, Sweden, Denmark and the Benelux countries.
UK capitalists are the ones that are continually moaning about raising the minimum wage and having to provide their workforce with pensions and permanent terms of employment contracts.
If the UK does leave the EU why on earth does anyone imagine that workers are going to be better off? On the contrary the outsourcing of jobs and weakening of job protection rights will simply accelerate.
By all means advocate a Brexit, but do so on the basis of facts not fiction".
Sawyers transport sent home almost 30 drivers from Bulgaria in the past few weeks, the reason, they gained there license through grandfather rights in there own country, they never ever sat a driving test in a hgv, the insurance companys wont insure them anymore, there one of the reasons why drivers wages arenât rising, of course its not the sole reason but a big factor. how can some young person compete with this?? they have to fork out thousands to gain there license, but some flip flop can waltz in never having spent a penny and get a job driving a hgv. In the experience through the company I work for many claim to have driven all over Europe, a lot of the times its lies, one driver lied about being an experienced driver, a few weeks after starting he killed a cyclist,(the drivers fault, he was driving on the hard shoulder) the truth then came out, heâd never drove a truck before !!!
Carryfast:
Winseer:
Thereâs zero chance of reversing the immigration already done.WHY then does everyone bang on about THAT when itâs like trying to get the genii back in the bottle?
Thatâs only the case so long as people are happy to go along with the Socialists calling anyone who disagrees with that idea âracistsâ.
A Nationalist and Socialist is surely a â â â â by any other name⌠Bit of âpot calling kettle blackâ then as far as the SNP banging on about anyone other than themselves being âRacistâ then eh?
They canât even say âSassenachâ without hawkingâŚ
Winseer:
Carryfast:
Winseer:
Thereâs zero chance of reversing the immigration already done.WHY then does everyone bang on about THAT when itâs like trying to get the genii back in the bottle?
Thatâs only the case so long as people are happy to go along with the Socialists calling anyone who disagrees with that idea âracistsâ.
A Nationalist and Socialist is surely a â â â â by any other name⌠Bit of âpot calling kettle blackâ then as far as the SNP banging on about anyone other than themselves being âRacistâ then eh?
They canât even say âSassenachâ without hawkingâŚ
I think the term goes along the lines show me someone who says that a nationalist can also be a socialist Iâll show you a liar. 
TheYoungTrucker:
Dolph:
Next century British drivers on the waiting line for Schengen visa in order to enter France or Holland, in other words mainland Europe, yeah right.
Hahaha British Government is notorious of screwing working people. Without EU British people will be in a lot worst situation then today, but then you will have no one to blame for.
Its easier for me to copy-paste comment I agree with from a Brit:Well andrew garner, you might then ask why it is the UK Government that has been the most determined opponent of the EU Social Chapter; Working Time Directive; and numerous other workerâs rights benefits enjoyed by the majority of other EU member states.
EU capitalists as you put it are actually far more socially considerate and believe in high wage economies such as Germany and France, Sweden, Denmark and the Benelux countries.
UK capitalists are the ones that are continually moaning about raising the minimum wage and having to provide their workforce with pensions and permanent terms of employment contracts.
If the UK does leave the EU why on earth does anyone imagine that workers are going to be better off? On the contrary the outsourcing of jobs and weakening of job protection rights will simply accelerate.
By all means advocate a Brexit, but do so on the basis of facts not fiction".Sawyers transport sent home almost 30 drivers from Bulgaria in the past few weeks, the reason, they gained there license through grandfather rights in there own country, they never ever sat a driving test in a hgv, the insurance companys wont insure them anymore, there one of the reasons why drivers wages arenât rising, of course its not the sole reason but a big factor. how can some young person compete with this?? they have to fork out thousands to gain there license, but some flip flop can waltz in never having spent a penny and get a job driving a hgv. In the experience through the company I work for many claim to have driven all over Europe, a lot of the times its lies, one driver lied about being an experienced driver, a few weeks after starting he killed a cyclist,(the drivers fault, he was driving on the hard shoulder) the truth then came out, heâd never drove a truck before !!!
I donât know what kind of BS is this âgrandfather rightâ, but doesnât exist. I pass my C class 2 month ago, I took 1 month of training on 16 speed manual lorry(manual is mandatory by law), my exam was 1 hour driving in and out of town+vehicle components and functioning, done by Bulgarian equivalent of DVSA(IAAA), my whole exam was video taped. A week earlier I had passed the written exam, which was live fed to IAAA headquarter, no talking was allowed at all, not even with the examiner, simply no talking, ID cards were checked, the exam was done on tablets and we all students were required to take picture with it. All of this to prevent cheating.
Please do elaborate what this grandfather rights are, because no one knows what is this. And Im Bulgarian living in Bulgaria. My father has C licence since 1966, he also never herd of this ârightâ. This Bulgarians are simply crooks who bribed officials to get licence, doesnât mean all Bulgarians are.
Last month a British immigrant(expat 
) run over 2 pedestrians in Ruse province,Bulgaria, one died one badly hurt. Before that a British national destroyed property, vehicles and threatened to kill gas station employees with knifes; another British citizen under the influence of drugs stole a baby in stroller from the mother hands after knocking the father on the ground. Another British citizen stabbed in the back and killed 18 old student, this very same Brit was living under false identity in Sofia, because he was wanted by British authorities for crimes in UK.
My point is there is good and bad people everywhere, there is corruption on many levels in all countries. I feel sorry you had bad experience with Bulgarian drivers, because the very same schmucks are making bad name for hard working law abiding people like me and I canât stand them. To lie about experience is down right stupid and dangerous, I donât know what to say, they donât have excuse.
In US I worked with great many Eastern Europeans - Bulgarians, Serbians, Poles, all great drivers.
I also have no Europe experience and if I apply for job in UK, that will be one of the first thing to share, I donât understand why people lie, they will be in fvcked up situation the next day(low bridge, weight restriction, tight â â â â â â â â â â â â etc.), not the TM or the HR guy/gal.
In US I worked with great many Eastern Europeans - Bulgarians, Serbians, Poles, all great drivers.
