In line with Europe

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
1

Something of the following should have been announced in todays budget.

All Foreign LGV’s entering the United Kingdom by any means:

May only enter the country with a maximum of 200ltrs of Deisel, duty will be levied on any excess amount. Foreign vehicles are welcome to use the same sources of fuelling used by UK hauliers

A toll of £500 will be charged on each entry for wear and tear maintenance of the UK roads network, an average trans germany toll is approx 600 euros.

Thinking of posting this on the No10 website.

wonder how much that would generate, and it would be at least a step towards enable the UK Haulage industry to compete on a more level playing field.

Thoughts lads ?

2

bigtrev:
Something of the following should have been announced in todays budget.

All Foreign LGV’s entering the United Kingdom by any means:

May only enter the country with a maximum of 200ltrs of Deisel, duty will be levied on any excess amount. Foreign vehicles are welcome to use the same sources of fuelling used by UK hauliers

Well any UK haulier I have worked for in the last 20 odd years has used sources for fuelling in Belgium, France, Spain, Luxembourg etc. Your idea would stop UK hauliers who still run abroad doing that and hammer another nail into their coffin.

bigtrev:
A toll of £500 will be charged on each entry for wear and tear maintenance of the UK roads network, an average trans germany toll is approx 600 euros.

Way out with your figures there, To cross Germany from the Dutch border at Venlo to the Polish border at Forst, a distance of 710 kilometres, is €110, you could do it five times and still have change from €600. Any road user charge levied on foreign trucks will also have to be imposed on UK registered vehicles, it’s EU law and we are in the EU and unlikely to leave any time soon. German transporters also pay the maut, and the Dutch and Belgian hauliers require a vignette, so your idea will impose even more costs onto UK hauliers.

So, while these ideas sound great when a group of drivers sit around complaining about Johnny Foreigner in reality they would send more UK firms to the wall as they are faced with yet another Government imposed tax. It will also hit all of us in our pockets as our wages won’t go as far due to the increase in the price of goods in the shops most of all basic requirements such as food, £500 on each trailer load of fruit from Spain or vegetables from Holland will mean us handing more over at the till in Asda/Tesco/Morrisons etc.

bigtrev:
Thinking of posting this on the No10 website.

Best not to, don’t want to give them more ideas to drive the UK haulage industry into oblivion.

bigtrev:
wonder how much that would generate, and it would be at least a step towards enable the UK Haulage industry to compete on a more level playing field.

It would make competing even harder as it increases cost for all so the playing field is still as unlevel as ever.

3

I doubt Darling Alistair can change European law just like that without it being passed through Europe. And £500 per truck who is going to pay that? We will on our shopping bills.

4

Trev, if you had looked through the site this has been done to death
more times than soft mick, as for the ROAD CHARGES in Germany
Italy Holland ; POLAND and all the points of the compass , these are also levered on their own vehicles as well,200liters of Fuel went out of the EU partner country’s years ago,in GERMANY if you have EURO 4/5
motor its cheaper than Euro-0/1/2/3; by lots, by the way
ITS roughly 733km from AACHEN --KEIFERSFELDEN
TIMES 28CENTS is about €205 one way,

5

Still a hell of a lot of money, Pete, and the rates never reflected it when it came in. Also, German hauliers were given the MAUT back for 2 years IIRC, so there was never any balance there.
In truth, something should be done to ensure payment is made by all hauliers travelling into the UK. With all the tracking cameras the UK has, they could figure something out, or they could do as the swiss used to do where you said where you were going and paid accordingly. As things stand, the UK hauliers are at a disadvantage and the EU could really not care less.

6

I thought the main reason we didn’t have the charges here was because (excepting Irish) most foreign HGVs in Britain are actually delivering something here whereas abroad they are usually passing through enroute somehwere else.

7

coffee said that anything imposed on foreigners coming in would be imposed on us as well,why when we already pay through the nose here .fair enough they pay there road taxes in there own country but have it free here yet we are all supposed to be eu members and should be charged the same wherever we go. :smiley: :smiley:

8

hothow:
coffee said that anything imposed on foreigners coming in would be imposed on us as well,why when we already pay through the nose here .

Because that, like it or not, is EU law. If you impose a charge on trucks you charge all trucks including those from your own country, which is why all the countries that have this type of charge also collect it from their own transport companies. It doesn’t make any difference that we have a road fund licence already, although the Government could refund this to hauliers if a new charge was introduced but can you really see them doing that? Wouldn’t win any votes come election time with the green lobby. Even if they did, a daily or distance based charge will be more than the current RFL for most hauliers over a year, unless the new charge was so small as to be not worth administering.

9

Thanks God the country budget is not your responsibility, you’d lead us to even deeper ■■■■.

bigtrev:
May only enter the country with a maximum of 200ltrs of Deisel, duty will be levied on any excess amount. Foreign vehicles are welcome to use the same sources of fuelling used by UK hauliers

As the UK is a part of the EU duties cannot be levied on its border with other EU members on goods purchased in another EU country.
What would you think of the Germans if they introduced the same rule - their fuel is more expensive than in any of the countries around them.

bigtrev:
A toll of £500 will be charged on each entry for wear and tear maintenance of the UK roads network, an average trans germany toll is approx 600 euros.

You cannot introduce toll selectively to foreigners only. Either to all or to nobody. Just as UK hauliers pay UK road tax, foreign hauliers pay equivalent/similar tax in their home countries - regardless of time spent or distance driven there. And if anybody travels aborad, then he pays their toll - together with locals.
After all, you don’t have to pay German / French / whatever toll - just avoid motorways…

bigtrev:
Thinking of posting this on the No10 website.

well, you have already made a fool out of you publicly so it won’t do any extra harm

bigtrev:
and it would be at least a step towards enable the UK Haulage industry to compete on a more level playing field.

Of course not!
Raising taxes and charges is very primitive way of patching the holes in the budget. It only works for short time (until people find a way around); it is not a proper solution.

Quite the opposite should be introduced:
decrease fuel duty - to stop lorries coming to the UK with full tanks and to start them buying as much as possible in the UK,
motorway toll - quite difficult in this country due to serious reliance on individual car travel. if the toll was introduced, cost-conscious people (and that’s probably most brits) would went onto alternative toll free roads. To prevent jams and chaos a serious changes would have to be done to public transport system,
flat tax rate instead of the stupid tiered system - to stop people and businesses trying to make less profit so as to fit into lower tax category, to limit off-shoring and outsourcing,
profit tax and business rate discounts to big companies to keep them from closing UK factories and moving their production abroad,
motivate (and force) people to work - how come one can be indefinitely on benefits and welfare? half a year, a year max, should be enough to find a job or to be re-trained for different job or even relocated to different part of the country to get a job
stop poking into the US arse, leave Iraq and Afganistan, cut defence expenses…
etc
etc
…

The biggest cause of UK incompetitiveness does not lie abroad nor is caused by foreigner coming/living/working here. It’s the UK’s very own rules and system. You can make them even more complex, ridiculous, expensive, but that won’t make you better off - simply because it is not what the others are doing. Sure you can “■■■■ against everybody”, but you are then excluding yourself from the game…

10

@bobthedog, Sorry my friend but the GERMAN transport
never got the maut returned for two(2)years, from the govt
the only way they could get compensation, was by telling their
customers that they were to pay, the maut and most customers
do that, as they would not get there goods moved or else,
Also many big supermarkets like REWE; ALDI;EDEKA;
send a lot of there trucks via the side roads to there destinations
saving the maut,The problem as regards Fuel is down to the
UK government,if they drop the tax and make it viable to refuel
in the UK then we would see a increase in revenue as more
people bought fuel, as was posted GERMANY a liter
of Petrol costs between €1.40–€1.50, Diesel€1.19–€1.29
at present here in Dortmund, in some cases it will either be
Lower or Higher in other parts ,

11

brit pete:
@bobthedog, Sorry my friend but the GERMAN transport
never got the maut returned for two(2)years, from the govt
the only way they could get compensation, was by telling their
customers that they were to pay, the maut and most customers
do that, as they would not get there goods moved or else,
Also many big supermarkets like REWE; ALDI;EDEKA;
send a lot of there trucks via the side roads to there destinations
saving the maut,The problem as regards Fuel is down to the
UK government,if they drop the tax and make it viable to refuel
in the UK then we would see a increase in revenue as more
people bought fuel, as was posted GERMANY a liter
of Petrol costs between €1.40–€1.50, Diesel€1.19–€1.29
at present here in Dortmund, in some cases it will either be
Lower or Higher in other parts ,

And in France, the big French companies boycotted the toll roads. The company I worked for had a tracking system on the trucks and if you passed a peage the satellite messaging would spring into action telling you to contact a planner to explain why you had entered a toll road.

At least they gave us an alternative route to follow and extra time to get to deliveries, plus the restos on the RN are better :stuck_out_tongue:

12

HomoFaber:
Thanks God the country budget is not your responsibility, you’d lead us to even deeper [zb].

bigtrev:
May only enter the country with a maximum of 200ltrs of Deisel, duty will be levied on any excess amount. Foreign vehicles are welcome to use the same sources of fuelling used by UK hauliers

As the UK is a part of the EU duties cannot be levied on its border with other EU members on goods purchased in another EU country.
What would you think of the Germans if they introduced the same rule - their fuel is more expensive than in any of the countries around them.

bigtrev:
A toll of £500 will be charged on each entry for wear and tear maintenance of the UK roads network, an average trans germany toll is approx 600 euros.

You cannot introduce toll selectively to foreigners only. Either to all or to nobody. Just as UK hauliers pay UK road tax, foreign hauliers pay equivalent/similar tax in their home countries - regardless of time spent or distance driven there. And if anybody travels aborad, then he pays their toll - together with locals.
After all, you don’t have to pay German / French / whatever toll - just avoid motorways…

bigtrev:
Thinking of posting this on the No10 website.

well, you have already made a fool out of you publicly so it won’t do any extra harm

bigtrev:
and it would be at least a step towards enable the UK Haulage industry to compete on a more level playing field.

Of course not!
Raising taxes and charges is very primitive way of patching the holes in the budget. It only works for short time (until people find a way around); it is not a proper solution.

Quite the opposite should be introduced:
decrease fuel duty - to stop lorries coming to the UK with full tanks and to start them buying as much as possible in the UK,
motorway toll - quite difficult in this country due to serious reliance on individual car travel. if the toll was introduced, cost-conscious people (and that’s probably most brits) would went onto alternative toll free roads. To prevent jams and chaos a serious changes would have to be done to public transport system,
flat tax rate instead of the stupid tiered system - to stop people and businesses trying to make less profit so as to fit into lower tax category, to limit off-shoring and outsourcing,
profit tax and business rate discounts to big companies to keep them from closing UK factories and moving their production abroad,
motivate (and force) people to work - how come one can be indefinitely on benefits and welfare? half a year, a year max, should be enough to find a job or to be re-trained for different job or even relocated to different part of the country to get a job
stop poking into the US arse, leave Iraq and Afganistan, cut defence expenses…
etc
etc
…

The biggest cause of UK incompetitiveness does not lie abroad nor is caused by foreigner coming/living/working here. It’s the UK’s very own rules and system. You can make them even more complex, ridiculous, expensive, but that won’t make you better off - simply because it is not what the others are doing. Sure you can “■■■■ against everybody”, but you are then excluding yourself from the game…

Quote - Quote - Quote etc

your rather up your own arse are,nt you chap.

The point i am making, is the foreign operators are not just coming into the country and making a drop then exiting. There are operators at tilbury, only making a trip out of the country 1 day per month, otherwise they are doing tramping around the country, some turkish operators, Barsan for one have thre own office in coventry and are tramping trucks through the UK, they ARE :smiley: taking work from the likes of you and me. speaking with some of them they are earning less than 300 euro;s a week. Either something needs to be done to even out the playing field or the only alternative is class 1 drivers in this country will eventually have to drop there wages to about £230 a week to compete.

They make no contribution toward the upkeep of the roads, they are not paying taxes on earnings made here, even our troops pay taxes when they are not even in the country for six months.

13

Been away from Europe a long time now Pete, and it was just as I was told. Thing is, if the German operators were getting the Maut paid by their customers-i.e. if the customers actually paid, then it was still a huge advantage. I fully understood the idea behind the Maut but it was ■■■■■■■■■■ and awkward to use if your plans changed halfway through a trip and you had to find a machine to get a different ticket, etc. I always thought a transit levy would have been fairer all round. More to the point, while we all had a long time travelling to Germany for free before it was introduced, it still went from a fiver a day to “the sky’s the limit” overnight.

With the french peages, often it was worth using them anyway simply for the time factor and for the fuel savings. But you had a choice as a rule, in Germany you really don’t. I also remember when all the Vignette machines had been removed from Germany and the German trucks were getting nailed in Belgium for no EV in their windshields. That was so neighbourly, wasn’t it? It was a further demonstration that the overall dislike between countries still exists.

You will get no argument from me about fuel duty. If the UK had only woken up to the fact that they would make more by charging less then things would be very different. The same principle applies to tobacco and alcohol, which would also stop some of the leaking of money from the UK. It should not be acceptable that the UK is still paying more and getting less, same as for Germany or anyone else. Fuel duty for commercial vehicles could easily be adjusted at the pumps, or on cardlock bills, then people would buy it there. It may even cut down on ■■■■■ fuel thefts up to a point, because trucks wouldn’t have to carry 1400 litres of fuel all the time. It should be the same net price across the EU, not variable as it is.

The OP got his figures way out but the principle still applies. If the EU law states that any levy applied to one should be applied to all then trucks entering the UK should pay the same rate as UK trucks. Therefore, a 5 axle tractor trailer should pay 4 quid per day for every day on the UK soil. It is about the same rate as the UK operators pay so would not affect them. While not a lot in and of itself, over a year it would make a difference.

14

bobthedog:
Thing is, if the German operators were getting the Maut paid by their customers-i.e. if the customers actually paid, then it was still a huge advantage.

My customers paid the maut when it was introduced, I obviously wasn;t going to charge the same pre and post maut so the charge went on the invoice and it was paid.

bobthedog:
If the EU law states that any levy applied to one should be applied to all then trucks entering the UK should pay the same rate as UK trucks. Therefore, a 5 axle tractor trailer should pay 4 quid per day for every day on the UK soil. It is about the same rate as the UK operators pay so would not affect them. While not a lot in and of itself, over a year it would make a difference.

Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. Our current RFL would be separate to any new charge so it would go from £0 to £4 for foreign hauliers and £4 to £8 for UK, unless the Government gave us a rebate on the RFL and that is as likely as driver CPC trainers actually understanding the WTD and tacho rules.

15

Trevor, I’m just trying to explain that the problem, or the core of the problem if you like, is not abroad or with foreigners doing or not doing this or that. The core of the problem lies withing this country.

Yes, there are foreign companies whose trucks only drop empty trailers at docks and pick up a full one for delivery.
First of all, you can do the same. Send trailers unaccompanied to Calais, have a tractor/-s there to take wherever needed in Europe.
They don’t pay for road use here - neither do you when you drive abroad - unless you decide to use a toll road (then you pay together with others, local or other foreigners).
They don’t pay taxes here - neither do you when you drive (=work) abroad. (That would be double taxing and you wouldn’t like it, would you).
They earn less than you - the cost living in their country is lower so they are about at the same level as you here.

An example to make myself clearer, there are countries in the world where there’s no tax on personal income, or a little one, so the cost of living is lower (relative terms), but the standard of living is higher (or comparable to) than in the UK. How’s that possible? The govt must have got money from somewhere else. It can be a wealth in natural resource (take Kuwait or Qatar) or the simple fact that lower taxes attract business and though the rates are low the total amount of money is huge and pays for all citizens’ wellbeing.
Currently the UK with its taxes and charges forces business out, the money they don’t pay in taxes is missing so the remaining lot have to be taxed more to make up for the shortfall, nobody is happy about it, some demand the foreigners to pay… Instead we should aim to become a “tax heaven” ourselves.
So don’t ask the govt to make the foreigners pay but to drop the charges for you.

bobthedog:

  1. in the same way german hauliers get the maut paid by their customers is the maut paid to the british hauliers by their customer.
  2. the easiest way to introduce a road charge to foreign lorries would be, imho, to introduce motorway stickers, either for motorways only or motorways and dual carriageways. the stickers would be for all, both foreigners and locals. To offset for the new charge (for motorways and dualcarriageways) the UK hauliers should demand and get a reduction on current road tax rate. The stickers sale profit would go towards motorway and dual-carriageway repairs and maintenance, road tax proceedings to all other roads. (let’s be fair, UK hauliers are more likely to use country lanes while foreigner lorries are more likely to appear on major trunk roads)
16

HomoFaber:
2) the easiest way to introduce a road charge to foreign lorries would be, imho, to introduce motorway stickers, either for motorways only or motorways and dual carriageways. the stickers would be for all, both foreigners and locals. To offset for the new charge (for motorways and dualcarriageways) the UK hauliers should demand and get a reduction on current road tax rate. The stickers sale profit would go towards motorway and dual-carriageway repairs and maintenance, road tax proceedings to all other roads. (let’s be fair, UK hauliers are more likely to use country lanes while foreigner lorries are more likely to appear on major trunk roads)

Now that is a good idea but I see a couple of problems with it from the Government point of view.

Increased traffic on non motorway and dual carriageway routes, not popular and not a vote winner with Mr and Mrs Middle England.

Reducing road tax on those big juggernauts not popular, and not a vote winner, with the great British public, especially the green lobby.

Mr and Mrs Daily Mail reader would be caught on the horns of a dilemma however. They would get all moist and excited by the prospect of sticking it to Johnny Foreigner but that would be tempered by the fact smelly old trucks and their drivers would be getting something back from the Government.

17

I know what you mean Mr. Coffeeholic, it would be easier for a government just after election, not before.
There has to be govt that has the balls to say “right, we gotta do this, because of this, we and you’ll get this but have to give up this”

To make it even better (more fair), the stickers should also be compulsory for passenger cars with UK reg cars seeing a reduction in road tax too.
That would be kind of a preparation for the EU wide GPS pay-as-you-drive toll, to avoid the shock in 2015 or whenever that’s due.

As of the increased traffic, M25 and similar ring roads should be toll free, buses should be toll exempt - that would finally be a step to support public transport and another one towards the green economy.
Then, now we really are talking about going green, big factories should get incentives to organize bus transport for their emplyees, commuter services around every bigger city… things work elsewhere why wouldn’t they here? after some appropriate “brainwashing” that it is not only the rabble that uses buses

18

HomoFaber:
As of the increased traffic, M25 and similar ring roads should be toll free,

Unless you are going to spend all day on the M25 or similar ring roads then they wouldn’t be toll free, you would be buying the daily sticker to go anywhere else.

19

bigtrev:
Quote - Quote - Quote etc

your rather up your own arse are,nt you chap.

The point i am making, is the foreign operators are not just coming into the country and making a drop then exiting. There are operators at tilbury, only making a trip out of the country 1 day per month, otherwise they are doing tramping around the country, some turkish operators, Barsan for one have thre own office in coventry and are tramping trucks through the UK, they ARE :smiley: taking work from the likes of you and me. speaking with some of them they are earning less than 300 euro;s a week. Either something needs to be done to even out the playing field or the only alternative is class 1 drivers in this country will eventually have to drop there wages to about £230 a week to compete.

They make no contribution toward the upkeep of the roads, they are not paying taxes on earnings made here, even our troops pay taxes when they are not even in the country for six months.

One of the advantages of being in the EU is that it allows people to move their labour around to their own advantage and before you jump in and say Turkey are not in the EU yet, they are not but Barsan have subsidiary companies and even hauliers who are in the EU. They have an interest in America and other worldwide locations. It appears the haulage operation is from Hungary.

Let us turn your argument on it’s head using a couple of real scenarios.

A company in the East of England send 15 trucks a week to Europe, the trucks do not come home for 3 weeks and collect unaccompanied trailers from Belgium and Holland. They then deliver groupage consolidated in the UK and deliver regularly to Spain, Italy Germany and France. Through their partners and agents they are reloading from these same countries and dropping the trailers at the European ports again. So the British company has taken work from England and delivered it, the driver then collects a load from a French company and drops the trailer in Zeebrugge and then goes to Germany with another trailer and does the same, but this time drops it in Europoort.

At the end of the third week, the driver brings a trailer home with him and has a day at home before doing it again. Where in this does the Belgium, French or German driver gain, where does the driver in Europoort gain, the Englishman has taken his work. Indeed if he is able to get his head around the 91/183 rule he will pay no income tax in the UK either, if he can read a map well the only place he will pay to use the roads is Benelux at €8 per day and of course the Maut which everyone pays, even the Polish and Germans.

Granted there are a few sections of peage in France Italy and Spain which are unavoidable but we have those here too. We pay the French to cross the River Thames at Dartford and to enter Wales by Motorway. We even pay the Australians to use the M6 Toll road.

And speaking with some French people you will also find they are also earning less than €300 per week and we strive to be more like them :stuck_out_tongue:

French National Statistics 2008 = Average wage per week for men is €457

So this thread should be moved to Bullys Bar

20

Listen I dont care what UK trucks pay while abroad that is their choice what I do care about is when foreign reg trucks run about free here when I have to pay .