Carryfast:
Winseer:
Carryfast:
What’s the difference between a Socialist who wants to do anything for the “many and not the few” - but only in Britain - and a Non-Socialist, who attempts to at least see some kind of bigger picture? We only joined the EEC in the first place, because Britain was on it’s kneeds in the 70’s after governments both left and right failed to address the leakage that winding-down workshop-of-the-world Britain was panning out in our economy as. Moving from a Manufacturing to a Service-based economy was, is, and continues to be the hardest “adjustment” that this country ever had to make since the war, economically.I’m actually somewhere in between. I’m all for “jobs for Britain” which means jobs for all those immigrants already here as well, of course. I’m not actually interested (as a Leave Voter, or Center-Rightist) in sending anyone home “just for being an immigrant”. I’m only interested in getting rid of those here with no job, attempting to undermine our society with their incompatible faith, no integration, no women, and no acceptance of British Home-grown ways. Let’s call a spade a spade here, and I’ll say that I’m Anti Islamic immigrant, and Pro Eastern European immigrant. For those fully EU immigrants - I never had any issues with them to start with, as the “free movement of people and Labour” was always pretty smooth IF you had that “job lined up”.
I’d have to say “Vote Corbyn, Get McCluskey, Vote May, Get Merkel, Vote Cable, Get Merkel” now.
I don’t think Corbyn chose Hoey, because Starmer chose Starmer. Hoey was being villified ahead of the 2017 election in her own constituency - and then confounded the “haters” by increasing her already massive majority there… To say she ■■■■■■ all over the Remainer activists that were trying to get actual Labour voters to ditch her - would be an understatement.
0Where do you get the idea that Britain was ‘on its knees’ in 1972 ?.As opposed to 1975 to date.
Our manufacturing base and mining industries being slaughtered after 1972 not before that point.As would be expected with Germany being top dog in Euroland and always intended by all concerned to stay there as part of our EU membership.In large part for the reasons given by Heath and Rjan of unfounded paranoid fear of more aggro with them if they didn’t get their way.The move from manufacturing based economy to service,while Germany kept its wealth creating industry,all being part of that.
(So it`s actually part of an EU plan to have Maggie close the mines, and destroy our manufacturing base? Those politicians are more clever than I thought)
As for excessive immigration I see it all being as bad as each other.But the import of alien Asian and African populations and all the inherent aggro that goes with it obviously being based in large part on different reasons than East Euro immigration.Societal in the case of the former and economic reasons in the case of the latter.Having said that don’t be under any illusions as to the ability of the Slavic groups to kick off even among themselves let alone against us if things go pear shaped.Also bearing in mind that history shows that immigrant groups always eventually go for self determination along their own ethnic lines if/when numbers reach critical mass.Not to mention providing an excuse for their own foreign support to invade and/or destabilise a country regardless.Ironically in this case the EU and those foreign states already stating that they will step in and ignore UK sovereignty to impose the interests of their own immigrant groups here along their own national lines.In a similar way that Hitler used the excuse of the Sudetenland Germans to wipe out the sovereignty of Chekoslovakia.
(Same as any and all other ethnic groups then? We in western Europe have kicked off amongst ourselves a few times too)
As for Hoey the fact that Corbyn allowed Labour remainers to vilify her and didn’t over rule them,to put Hoey into the job of shadow Brexit minister and instead has allowed remainers to set the agenda,in the form of Starmer,says everything about the contradiction between Socialism v what can only be the Nationalist idea of Secession.Socialists will always have to ideologically come down on the side of anti nation state Federalism and unfortunately,like Shore and Heffer etc before her she’s rightly been branded as a Labour Nationalist and therefore totally incompatible with the Socialist line.Which explains Rjan’s bs excuse in her being too ‘controversial’ to be given the job as opposed to remainer Starmer.Let alone then blatantly defending the remain agenda here, while at the same time pretending to support Brexit,just like Corbyn.Realistically the only thing that can save the country now is a massive swing to UKIP.
Rjan:
“That’s why farmers have been sold a crock, because the Tories have made it clear their subsidies will disappear if we leave the EU. But that’s not what those farmers understood they were voting for.”
Do you listen to “Farming Today” BBC R4? 18months ago it seemed all to be “Brexit is all opportunity and a happy future”. Now its all "No markets, no cheap labour, can we have exemptions etc". Laughable, if it wasnt so serious!
Rjan:
“And there was no “Leave manifesto” at the time of the referendum, or have I overlooked a crucial document?”
If you missed this document dont beat yourself up too much. I looked aalll the way through the internet last night and couldnt find it either!
Rjan:
“Take Data Protection for example - if you want to do business with EU citizens (maybe even just an online service), you’re going to have to comply, or else not provide the service. And unlike now, we’ll have no British judges in the ECJ, and no influence. I’m not saying this to rattle you, just to try and pick away at exactly what you want from Brexit!”
Quite so.
Under what jurisdiction will our famous Service Sector trade? About the only sector where we are trading in the black isn`t it? Banking and Financial services need a framework of laws. Will all the EU customers we currently have agree to use UK Law if it differs from EU law? Or go with EU compliant banks? If our banks stay EU compliant, then Brexit is pointless, after all.
Carryfast:
Winseer:
If Hoey ever replaced Starmer - Hoey could hold May’s feet to the fire, and make a proper opposition of Labour.^ This.It would be a Tory massacre.
Then we’d see just how much Rjan’s lot ( and by implication Corbyn ) are really opposed to the Blairites.Everything he’s said here not looking good in that regard.
If you’re all in favour of it Carryfast, then I know it would leave people like me running for the hills, let alone the Blairites! 
Speaking for myself, the problem with Hoey is that she comes across as belonging to the backwoodsmen of the Labour party. Not the sort of people you don’t want in the Labour party (unlike the Blairites), not the sort of people you don’t want to hear from, but also not the sort of people you would trust with control when missteps could be fatal for us all.
I haven’t heard a lot from Hoey, but what I have heard has raised more questions than it has answered. I’m more satisfied with how Starmer has been holding the Blairites’ feet to the fire, and discrediting them in their own terms.
The fact that Starmer is a Remainer arguing for Brexit, and the fact that Labour is led by inveterate Eurosceptics (Corbyn and McDonnell), makes me more inclined to believe Starmer is being reasonable and is making it clear both to Labour right-wingers and to the predominantly Remain electorate of the Labour party that things do indeed need to change, and that Labour is not going forward with the Blairite status quo, inside a Europe conceived as a neoliberal project that harms the interests of the working class.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Here’s a clue try moving a truck load of cigs or a tanker full of diesel bought in Luxembourg to Calais and then through Dover to be sold here.Doubtful the load would even reach Calais without being stopped by flying squad of Belgian or French customs agents let alone what would happen at Dover.That’s your bs supposed single market and no customs barriers in action.Easy to solve that problem, have an equal rate of duty on all tobacco, alcohol and fuels throughout the EU.
No more hassle with smugglers, customs docs, or evasion and avoidance of fuel duties.
Well pointed out CF, we need more integration, not less!OK, by choosing Cigs and Fuel you are talking of goods that have duty as well as VAT. Those goods are subject to special rules not only in International but also in National transport.
Moving tobacco even within the UK isn`t a typical operation is it? Unlike VAT, the C & E seem to assume that duties, being much higher, are more likely to be evaded so take more interest.Even today if you can buy tobacco more cheaply in Lux, you can then sell it here provided you pay UK duty on it. You aren`t pointing out any flaws in the system, merely highlighting the freedom we have to charge different taxes from other EU countries.
No surprise that you’ve conveniently moved the goal posts.The point wasn’t the goods ( diesel or cigs from Lux ) or the people ( Somali immigrants from Italy ).
The point was clearly that the border which you’ve said doesn’t exist between NI and UK mainland clearly does exist.Or it would be no problem to bring in both without any customs or immigration control via Ireland/Northern Ireland as things stand now and as they’d stand just the same after Brexit. 
Franglais:
there was no “Leave manifesto” at the time of the referendum, or have I overlooked a crucial document?"
You do know that we had months of TV discussions involving both sides making their respective positions clear.Also months of leaflet campaigning at least in which the Leave case was made clear.
This is what was written on one of those leaflets.
First the big heading ‘‘Who governs Britain’’.
Then followed by ‘‘why we should leave the European Union’’.
''The economic cost.The ‘total cost’ on the economy of EU membership is calculated at £190 billion per year ‘’( professor Tom Congleton ).Bearing in mind that our trade deficit with Germany alone last year was around £50 billion.
‘‘The democratic cost.’’
‘‘Most of our laws are made by the the European Union.The government has surrendered control even down to legislation of hair dryers and vacuum cleaners.’’
‘‘EU directives must become UK law by act of parliament ( Parliament has no choice ) and EU regulations become law without parliament debating them.’’
‘‘Any EU citizen can now be extradited to any other EU state without any evidence being presented against them in a British Court and the Court has no power to prevent it.’’
‘‘What will happen if we remain.’’
‘‘David Cameron’s reform package is irrelevant.Martin Schulz MEP the president of the European parliament has already said that the European Parliament could vote to change the ‘reforms’ after the Referendum anyway.’’
‘‘Mr.Cameron has not even attempted to return any real powers to the UK - least of all over inmmigration.’’
‘‘The EU will forge ahead with full political,economic,and monetary union with control from Brussles.’’
‘‘It is already well on the way to being what was always intended - a United States of Europe.’’
‘‘Immigration the big issue.’’
‘‘The EU is a single borderless state.450 million EU citizens have the right to come to Britain,to work,claim benefits and housing and enjoy the same entitlements as British citizens.’’
‘‘Literally millions of people have flooded to the UK from poor European countries.This has driven wages down,property values up,and put unsustainable burdens on the NHS,schools,roads and transport etc.’’
‘‘If we stay in the European Union there will be millions more migrants to come.’’
‘‘The EU intends to.’’
‘‘Create its own armed forces to implement its foreign policy.’’
‘‘Complete full economic and monetary union and to control member states taxation and spending policies.’’
‘‘Import millions more migrants from Africa and beyond.Once these migrants are established in any EU state they will have the right to come to Britain.’’
‘‘Allow Turkey to join with its population of 75 million all of whom will have the right to come to Britain.Turkey’s porous borders with the Middle East will mean even more illegal immigration to the UK.’’
‘‘The EU is destroying Britain as an independent democratic nation.The European Parliament is a relentless sausage machine for rubber stamping unnecessary ill concieved and often incompetent legislation.’’
‘‘This referendum has been hard fought for do not waste this opportunity it may be your last chance to get our country out of the EU before we are absorbed into an undemocratic United States of Europe.’’
‘‘If you don’t want these things then vote Leave.’’
I’d say that is a clear enough manifesto as to the reasoning and intentions of the Leave side and which obviously doesn’t in any way shape or form fit the idea of so called ‘soft Brexit’ ( remain in all but name ) which the remain conspiracy in the form of May,Corbyn,Cable and Sturgeon and obviously Rjan and you have lined up for us.
It is a clear intent to take us out of the EU in the form of so called ‘hard Brexit’.
Rjan:
Carryfast:
Winseer:
If Hoey ever replaced Starmer - Hoey could hold May’s feet to the fire, and make a proper opposition of Labour.^ This.It would be a Tory massacre.
Then we’d see just how much Rjan’s lot ( and by implication Corbyn ) are really opposed to the Blairites.Everything he’s said here not looking good in that regard.
If you’re all in favour of it Carryfast, then I know it would leave people like me running for the hills, let alone the Blairites!
Speaking for myself, the problem with Hoey is that she comes across as belonging to the backwoodsmen of the Labour party. Not the sort of people you don’t want in the Labour party (unlike the Blairites), not the sort of people you don’t want to hear from, but also not the sort of people you would trust with control when missteps could be fatal for us all.
I haven’t heard a lot from Hoey, but what I have heard has raised more questions than it has answered. I’m more satisfied with how Starmer has been holding the Blairites’ feet to the fire, and discrediting them in their own terms.
The fact that Starmer is a Remainer arguing for Brexit, and the fact that Labour is led by inveterate Eurosceptics (Corbyn and McDonnell), makes me more inclined to believe Starmer is being reasonable and is making it clear both to Labour right-wingers and to the predominantly Remain electorate of the Labour party that things do indeed need to change, and that Labour is not going forward with the Blairite status quo, inside a Europe conceived as a neoliberal project that harms the interests of the working class.
Let’s get this right.You’d join the Blairites in running for the hills if Hoey replaced remainer Starmer and Starmer’s obvious remain in all but name agenda is your idea of holding Blair’s feet to the fire.You couldn’t make it up.
So tell us how are you going to not go forward inside this ‘neoliberal’ Federal Europe without so called ‘hard’ Brexit and with so called ‘soft Brexit’.In which we are still tied to all the EU’s legislature and still paying them for the privilege of being a net importer of their stuff among other sweeteners like access to our fishing areas. ?.
Franglais:
Rjan:
“That’s why farmers have been sold a crock, because the Tories have made it clear their subsidies will disappear if we leave the EU. But that’s not what those farmers understood they were voting for.”Do you listen to “Farming Today” BBC R4? 18months ago it seemed all to be “Brexit is all opportunity and a happy future”. Now it
s all "No markets, no cheap labour, can we have exemptions etc". Laughable, if it wasnt so serious!
Indeed, it’s utterly risible. Farmers are one of the most mollycoddled group of petite bourgeoisie in the entire EU. The real menace to the interests of UK farmers seems to be the free market in their produce (dominated by large supermarket buyers against a mass of disorganised farmers), and in their landholding terms (with land owners enjoying large unearned incomes at the expense of working farmers), which has left many reaping a loss before subsidies are factored, but the solution to that is for them to turn against the markets.
Instead, they’ve voted for more free market (albeit their cheap EU labour looks set to be swept away in the disruption caused by the support of many workers for Brexit), more free trade (which will simply see them competing with tuppenny-hapenny farmers in the third world, exactly what the CAP is designed to stop), and a Tory party in the grip of small-state radicals who will sweep their subsidies away.
Rjan:
“And there was no “Leave manifesto” at the time of the referendum, or have I overlooked a crucial document?”If you missed this document don
t beat yourself up too much. I looked aalll the way through the internet last night and couldnt find it either!
Indeed!
Rjan:
“Take Data Protection for example - if you want to do business with EU citizens (maybe even just an online service), you’re going to have to comply, or else not provide the service. And unlike now, we’ll have no British judges in the ECJ, and no influence. I’m not saying this to rattle you, just to try and pick away at exactly what you want from Brexit!”Quite so.
Under what jurisdiction will our famous Service Sector trade? About the only sector where we are trading in the black isn`t it? Banking and Financial services need a framework of laws. Will all the EU customers we currently have agree to use UK Law if it differs from EU law? Or go with EU compliant banks? If our banks stay EU compliant, then Brexit is pointless, after all.
Agreed. You can’t be both an import/exporter and an economic sovereign on all matters. That’s why Britain had it’s colonies who were essentially subject to British government and British sovereignty - as did the other European powers. Effectively the empires were the 19th century equivalent of modern free-trade areas and political unions, because you have to have economies under common political control. The problem for the EU is that it has a degree of common political control, but no democracy and it’s collective ideology is a neoliberal one.
That’s why Corbyn has a stronger hand in negotiating with the EU, and who can make a bigger impact if he exits, because he has foreign friends who also agree that the EU is too neoliberal and too undemocratic, whereas the Tories (and the right-wing Brexiteers) don’t have any foreign friends, because they’ve made it quite clear that they draw the battle lines in terms of Britain vs. the national interests of the other members, rather than in terms of the European working class vs. the undemocratic and neoliberal elites who control the EU institutions.
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Here’s a clue try moving a truck load of cigs or a tanker full of diesel bought in Luxembourg to Calais and then through Dover to be sold here.Doubtful the load would even reach Calais without being stopped by flying squad of Belgian or French customs agents let alone what would happen at Dover.That’s your bs supposed single market and no customs barriers in action.Easy to solve that problem, have an equal rate of duty on all tobacco, alcohol and fuels throughout the EU.
No more hassle with smugglers, customs docs, or evasion and avoidance of fuel duties.
Well pointed out CF, we need more integration, not less!OK, by choosing Cigs and Fuel you are talking of goods that have duty as well as VAT. Those goods are subject to special rules not only in International but also in National transport.
Moving tobacco even within the UK isn`t a typical operation is it? Unlike VAT, the C & E seem to assume that duties, being much higher, are more likely to be evaded so take more interest.Even today if you can buy tobacco more cheaply in Lux, you can then sell it here provided you pay UK duty on it. You aren`t pointing out any flaws in the system, merely highlighting the freedom we have to charge different taxes from other EU countries.
No surprise that you’ve conveniently moved the goal posts.The point wasn’t the goods ( diesel or cigs from Lux ) or the people ( Somali immigrants from Italy ).
The point was clearly that the border which you’ve said doesn’t exist between NI and UK mainland clearly does exist.Or it would be no problem to bring in both without any customs or immigration control via Ireland/Northern Ireland as things stand now and as they’d stand just the same after Brexit.
I’m not sure I grasp your point Carryfast. We are in a common customs area with NI, and with Eire, and a common travel area. Neither are part of the Schengen area, which means there are external borders for people and there is no right to cross CTA external borders without a passport. There are in practice strict external border controls reinforced by the geographic border created by the sea. But there are no internal border controls within the CTA. The entire CTA is within the EU.
There are no controls on the movement of goods or people between GB and NI. If you want to use a go-fast boat to move pork pies between UK and NI, there is nobody to whom you need to declare it, and no documentation that you need to show (the only possible reason you’d be targeted for checks is because of the incongruity of the activity and the suspicion that something else illegal was occurring, but police, customs, and immigration officers have that power anywhere in the UK, not just for those crossing the Irish Sea).
There is a land border on paper between NI and Eire, because they’re two separate countries, but most important issues are subject to common rules and standards, and there is in practice no real system of checking. Arbitrage on customs duties is rife amongst ordinary people near the border, but it’s considered merely a tax-collecting issue whose overall effect is small against the political issues at stake.
Significant smuggling of the small number of products that attract special duties (e.g. fuel) is controlled by customs officers in an unsystematic and targeted way, not by systematic border controls - you would not be able to run a fuel tanker operation shipping fuel from Eire to GB (or even from Eire to NI) for very long without everyone being sent to prison and having all your capital equipment seized.
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Here’s a clue try moving a truck load of cigs or a tanker full of diesel bought in Luxembourg to Calais and then through Dover to be sold here.Doubtful the load would even reach Calais without being stopped by flying squad of Belgian or French customs agents let alone what would happen at Dover.That’s your bs supposed single market and no customs barriers in action.Easy to solve that problem, have an equal rate of duty on all tobacco, alcohol and fuels throughout the EU.
No more hassle with smugglers, customs docs, or evasion and avoidance of fuel duties.
Well pointed out CF, we need more integration, not less!OK, by choosing Cigs and Fuel you are talking of goods that have duty as well as VAT. Those goods are subject to special rules not only in International but also in National transport.
Moving tobacco even within the UK isn`t a typical operation is it? Unlike VAT, the C & E seem to assume that duties, being much higher, are more likely to be evaded so take more interest.Even today if you can buy tobacco more cheaply in Lux, you can then sell it here provided you pay UK duty on it. You aren`t pointing out any flaws in the system, merely highlighting the freedom we have to charge different taxes from other EU countries.
No surprise that you’ve conveniently moved the goal posts.The point wasn’t the goods ( diesel or cigs from Lux ) or the people ( Somali immigrants from Italy ).
The point was clearly that the border which you’ve said doesn’t exist between NI and UK mainland clearly does exist.Or it would be no problem to bring in both without any customs or immigration control via Ireland/Northern Ireland as things stand now and as they’d stand just the same after Brexit.
Are we at odds here about what a border actually is? Seems so.
Youre saying there is currently a border between NI and mainland UK, and Im saying there isnt. Ill agree there are controls in the ports of entry. They are there because its a convenient pinch point to look at travellers. OK, agreed. Im arguing those are not borders in that anyone legally in NI is automatically legal to enter the mainland. They are not borders between two different states.
They should more accurately be called internal control posts shouldnt they? Im sure that is politically unacceptable, but thats the truth of it Id suggest.
Would you agree that is the situation?
EDIT written at same time as Rjan`s post.
Davis joining UKIP and Hoey replacing Starmer would probably be the game changers that would get the job done and finally make the remainers give up.
Davis isn’t ever going to join UKIP. You don’t dive over the side of the proverbial Titanic, avoiding the last lifeboats as you go, - and swim towards the Lusitania for your “Rescue”.
A good example for those who think “We’ve got five years before we’re in trouble doing this…” 
I reckon though, if there were another “Early Election” called, with May still at the Blue Helm - we might suddenly see that “surprise” move of Corbyn manning up, getting rid of his former bit of skirt, “Sir” Not-appearing-in-the-next-government Starmer, and even Johnny-■■■-McDonnell. Being told “There’s four weeks until the election” has this tendency to sharpen the mind, and actions.
I noticed last year that Corbyn ran the reporters ragged with his campaign trail. Now for a non-Labour voter to say that, you’d better bloody believe it when I’m dishing out credit where credit is due here.
Corbyn might act like an idiot - but he’s a career politician first and foremost, who didn’t bend the knee during the Blair years to get into the Cabinet. Foes of Corbyn need to watch their step - 'cos “Corblimey” has tied your shoelaces together whilst you were too busy laughing at him!
Rjan:
Carryfast:
The point was clearly that the border which you’ve said doesn’t exist between NI and UK mainland clearly does exist.Or it would be no problem to bring in both without any customs or immigration control via Ireland/Northern Ireland as things stand now and as they’d stand just the same after Brexit.I’m not sure I grasp your point Carryfast. We are in a common customs area with NI, and with Eire, and a common travel area. Neither are part of the Schengen area, which means there are external borders for people and there is no right to cross CTA external borders without a passport. There are in practice strict external border controls reinforced by the geographic border created by the sea. But there are no internal border controls within the CTA. The entire CTA is within the EU.
There are no controls on the movement of goods or people between GB and NI. If you want to use a go-fast boat to move pork pies between UK and NI, there is nobody to whom you need to declare it, and no documentation that you need to show (the only possible reason you’d be targeted for checks is because of the incongruity of the activity and the suspicion that something else illegal was occurring, but police, customs, and immigration officers have that power anywhere in the UK, not just for those crossing the Irish Sea).
There is a land border on paper between NI and Eire, because they’re two separate countries, but most important issues are subject to common rules and standards, and there is in practice no real system of checking. Arbitrage on customs duties is rife amongst ordinary people near the border, but it’s considered merely a tax-collecting issue whose overall effect is small against the political issues at stake.
Significant smuggling of the small number of products that attract special duties (e.g. fuel) is controlled by customs officers in an unsystematic and targeted way, not by systematic border controls - you would not be able to run a fuel tanker operation shipping fuel from Eire to GB (or even from Eire to NI) for very long without everyone being sent to prison and having all your capital equipment seized.
If there are no controls on the movement of ‘all people’ between UK mainland and NI what stops that bus load of Somali ‘tourists’ collected from Italy entering the country from NI either via Cairnryan or even that go fast boat or for that matter passengers landing in Shannon then entering the UK mainland via NI - Cairnryan or Heathrow ?.
The border ‘controls’ apply to controlled status people in a similar way as they apply to the cigs from Luxembourg.In that they can be stopped/checked, before,or at,or even after,the border and failure to declare controlled status goods or people on entry being an offence in all cases.So the ‘border’ between UK,Eire and NI remains exactly the same whether we’re in the EU or out of it.In that there certainly is a border between UK mainland and NI just as there is a ‘border’ between NI and Eire.It’s just that NI residents have UK status when actually ‘crossing’ it.Unlike Somalis or Americans or Mexicans etc etc or also,hopefully soon,EU citizens.IE we don’t have machine gun guarded walls around the country forming the ‘border’.It’s all about the ‘status’ of what and who enters the country and the only change in this case would be the ‘status’ of EU goods and people ‘crossing’ it in becoming controlled,just like the Luxembourg cigs example,instead of uncontrolled.With no change to the ‘status’ of NI or Eire citizens etc when crossing it.Not the physical nature of the border itself.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
No surprise that you’ve conveniently moved the goal posts.The point wasn’t the goods ( diesel or cigs from Lux ) or the people ( Somali immigrants from Italy ).The point was clearly that the border which you’ve said doesn’t exist between NI and UK mainland clearly does exist.Or it would be no problem to bring in both without any customs or immigration control via Ireland/Northern Ireland as things stand now and as they’d stand just the same after Brexit.
Are we at odds here about what a border actually is? Seems so.
Youre saying there is currently a border between NI and mainland UK, and Im saying there isnt. Ill agree there are controls in the ports of entry. They are there because its a convenient pinch point to look at travellers. OK, agreed. Im arguing those are not borders in that anyone legally in NI is automatically legal to enter the mainland. They are not borders between two different states.
They should more accurately be called internal control posts shouldnt they? Im sure that is politically unacceptable, but thats the truth of it Id suggest.
Would you agree that is the situation?
How can ‘anyone’ enter mainland UK from NI when you’ve already admitted that border controls have to apply.Such as in the situation of a US or Mexican etc landing at Shannon and then entering the UK at Cairnryan or Heathrow via NI.While the border itself obviously isn’t a massive wall all around the UK mainland.As I said it’s the far more subtle definition of the ‘status’ of people and goods ‘crossing’ it whether it’s the line between dock side and exit at Dover or Cairnryan or air side to terminal exit at Heathrow.It’s only the ‘status’ of EU citizens and goods entering the UK,along the lines of US or Mexican,not Irish nor Northern Irish ones,being all that changes after Brexit.Not a massive wall being built in the Irish sea or around the coast of the UK mainland.
Carryfast:
Rjan:
If you’re all in favour of it Carryfast, then I know it would leave people like me running for the hills, let alone the Blairites![…]
Let’s get this right.You’d join the Blairites in running for the hills if Hoey replaced remainer Starmer and Starmer’s obvious remain in all but name agenda is your idea of holding Blair’s feet to the fire.You couldn’t make it up.
So tell us how are you going to not go forward inside this ‘neoliberal’ Federal Europe without so called ‘hard’ Brexit and with so called ‘soft Brexit’.In which we are still tied to all the EU’s legislature and still paying them for the privilege of being a net importer of their stuff among other sweeteners like access to our fishing areas. ?.
For my part, I simply don’t have a problem with Starmer so far and he seems a shrewd choice. Corbyn is the worker’s friend when it comes to Euroscepticism, and like Benn he’s a man you can trust even if you find something to disagree with him on (and I’m not saying there is anything I currently disagree with Corbyn on).
This article pretty much reflects my assessment of Corbyn:
newstatesman.com/politics/u … sm-endures
And the only point I’d take issue with is the fact that the author claims Corbyn’s Euroscepticism has “trumped his commitment to internal democracy”, when in fact no such thing has happened. There is no contradiction between Corbyn and the members, as the author himself acknowledges when he then points out in the very next paragraph that the members are more than satisfied with Corbyn. The only people who are dissatisfied with Corbyn on Brexit are those who are dissatisfied with Corbyn on everything else too - the Blairites.
That doesn’t mean I’d support Starmer as Corbyn’s replacement. What I’m saying is that I’m happy with the balance of forces, in which Corbyn and McDonnell are Eurosceptics for sensible reasons, and Starmer (who I wouldn’t call a Blairite but whose left-wing sympathies I think would not stand up on their own against Blairite opposition) is doing a workmanlike job under their direction. When I say sensible reasons, I contrast this with the insensible reasons and incoherent agenda that you frequently declare, as do many right-wing Brexiteers.
So if you endorse Hoey whilst criticising Corbyn (another contradiction, given her declared support of Corbyn), I can only imagine that she’s not someone I’d want to support. And for what it’s worth, I haven’t seen anything to suggest that I’d trust her on an issue of such monumental importance as the Brexit brief. She has already talked about Eire paying for a border wall with NI - even the most right-wing Tories have only suggested that a hard border would not be necessary. So there we go.
As for being tied to the EU legislature, which parts do you actually want changed? If it’s an end to human rights, then I’m not supporting that, and nobody in the Labour party does.
Winseer:
Davis joining UKIP and Hoey replacing Starmer would probably be the game changers that would get the job done and finally make the remainers give up.
Davis isn’t ever going to join UKIP. You don’t dive over the side of the proverbial Titanic, avoiding the last lifeboats as you go, - and swim towards the Lusitania for your “Rescue”.
I reckon though, if there were another “Early Election” called, with May still at the Blue Helm - we might suddenly see that “surprise” move of Corbyn manning up, getting rid of his former bit of skirt, “Sir” Not-appearing-in-the-next-government Starmer, and even Johnny-■■■-McDonnell. Being told “There’s four weeks until the election” has this tendency to sharpen the mind, and actions.
I noticed last year that Corbyn ran the reporters ragged with his campaign trail. Now for a non-Labour voter to say that, you’d better bloody believe it when I’m dishing out credit where credit is due here.
Corbyn might act like an idiot - but he’s a career politician first and foremost, who didn’t bend the knee during the Blair years to get into the Cabinet. Foes of Corbyn need to watch their step - 'cos “Corblimey” has tied your shoelaces together whilst you were too busy laughing at him!
Let’s just say that there’d be more chance of getting Brexit if Davis jumped ship to UKIP and as a result kicked off the real Remain v Leave fight among the Cons together with the resurgence of UKIP that we need.The analogy as I see it not being swapping Titanic for Lusitania but volunteering for an oil/petrol tanker instead of deck hand on the Queen Mary during the battle of the Atlantic.IE better to put yourself in the firing line for what you believe in to best effect than hide in the safest job possible.There’d also be more chance of that happening than trusting Corbyn to go against all his ideological instincts by throwing Starmer under the bus in favour of Hoey.While Rjan’s obvious position shows exactly where Corbyn stands.That being remain in all but name at best.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
[…]Are we at odds here about what a border actually is? Seems so.
Youre saying there is currently a border between NI and mainland UK, and Im saying there isnt. Ill agree there are controls in the ports of entry. They are there because its a convenient pinch point to look at travellers. OK, agreed. Im arguing those are not borders in that anyone legally in NI is automatically legal to enter the mainland. They are not borders between two different states.
They should more accurately be called internal control posts shouldnt they? Im sure that is politically unacceptable, but thats the truth of it Id suggest.
Would you agree that is the situation?EDIT written at same time as Rjan`s post.
I think you’ve summarised it more tersely than I was able to, but I’ll say this. The border between NI and Eire is as much of a border in practice as the York city walls are.
The border between NI and GB is a natural sea border, and as you say any controls are just located at ports for convenience as natural pinch point, no differently to how the DVSA tend to hang around dockyards and industrial estates, not because they are running an enforceable gateway like border guards, shaking everyone down who passes, but because it’s just a convenient place to occasionally cast the net.
And whilst an NI-GB border is the natural place for a hard border, there would still have to be extra checks and bureaucracy compared to now, frustrating NI-GB trade, and nobody’s having that because it would mean the EU frontier being located inside the territory of the UK along what is already a political fracture point for unionists.
Rjan:
Carryfast:
Let’s get this right.You’d join the Blairites in running for the hills if Hoey replaced remainer Starmer and Starmer’s obvious remain in all but name agenda is your idea of holding Blair’s feet to the fire.You couldn’t make it up.So tell us how are you going to not go forward inside this ‘neoliberal’ Federal Europe without so called ‘hard’ Brexit and with so called ‘soft Brexit’.In which we are still tied to all the EU’s legislature and still paying them for the privilege of being a net importer of their stuff among other sweeteners like access to our fishing areas. ?.
For my part, I simply don’t have a problem with Starmer so far and he seems a shrewd choice. Corbyn is the worker’s friend when it comes to Euroscepticism, and like Benn he’s a man you can trust even if you find something to disagree with him on (and I’m not saying there is anything I currently disagree with Corbyn on).
This article pretty much reflects my assessment of Corbyn:
newstatesman.com/politics/u … sm-enduresAnd the only point I’d take issue with is the fact that the author claims Corbyn’s Euroscepticism has “trumped his commitment to internal democracy”, when in fact no such thing has happened. There is no contradiction between Corbyn and the members, as the author himself acknowledges when he then points out in the very next paragraph that the members are more than satisfied with Corbyn. The only people who are dissatisfied with Corbyn on Brexit are those who are dissatisfied with Corbyn on everything else too - the Blairites.
That doesn’t mean I’d support Starmer as Corbyn’s replacement. What I’m saying is that I’m happy with the balance of forces, in which Corbyn and McDonnell are Eurosceptics for sensible reasons, and Starmer (who I wouldn’t call a Blairite but whose left-wing sympathies I think would not stand up on their own against Blairite opposition) is doing a workmanlike job under their direction. When I say sensible reasons, I contrast this with the insensible reasons and incoherent agenda that you frequently declare, as do many right-wing Brexiteers.
So if you endorse Hoey whilst criticising Corbyn (another contradiction, given her declared support of Corbyn), I can only imagine that she’s not someone I’d want to support. And for what it’s worth, I haven’t seen anything to suggest that I’d trust her on an issue of such monumental importance as the Brexit brief. She has already talked about Eire paying for a border wall with NI - even the most right-wing Tories have only suggested that a hard border would not be necessary. So there we go.
As for being tied to the EU legislature, which parts do you actually want changed? If it’s an end to human rights, then I’m not supporting that, and nobody in the Labour party does.
Ironically with family background which gave life for the Irish nationalist cause resulting the scattering of that family from here to America I’m not that bothered about Hoey’s ideas regarding the Irish border either way.To the point where I see Ireland’s ongoing over dependence on holding onto the UK’s strings,let alone throwing away that hard won sovereignty to EU rule,as a total sell out and contradiction regarding those lives lost.
While what is certain is that,like Benn,Heffer and Shore before her,Hoey clearly campaigned on an ideologically Nationalist,not possibly Socialist,hard Brexit ticket while Starmer was/is all for Remain just like you and therefore closer to the Globalist Blairites.Which says everything regarding your arguments.While there wouldn’t be much point in her trying to under mine Coryn’s position just as Davis arguing with May is equally pointless.The contradiction in both cases being that they are lumbered with Socialist and Federalist/Globalist ideology,which is ideologically opposed to their equally ideological Nationalist ideas of secession,so long as they choose to stay with their respective Parties.
As for EU human rights legislation like everything else regarding the EU it’s full of holes and something which we could do far better ourselves.To the point where it makes us welcome and support those who are pledged to our destruction in the form of radical Islam for one example.So yes that can go in the dustbin of the stupid bit of history which was our EU membership with all the rest of its Federal bs.
Rjan:
And whilst an NI-GB border is the natural place for a hard border, there would still have to be extra checks and bureaucracy compared to now, frustrating NI-GB trade, and nobody’s having that because it would mean the EU frontier being located inside the territory of the UK along what is already a political fracture point for unionists.
Why is it anymore of a ‘fracture point’ after Brexit than it is now when it would do exactly the same job of seperating UK/CTA entrants from non UK/CTA entrants both keeping their respective status just as before.Why ‘extra’ checks when there would be no more EU entrants wanting to enter via Northern Ireland than there are now.Are you really suggesting that EU to UK via Eire and NI would be anything other than likely to create suspicion from the point of landing in Rosslare or Shannon.
We, including NI, would be in a separate trading zone to Eire for the first time since 1965. And would need to have restrictions on people’s movement for first time since 1923!
And yes after Brexit goods or people using that route would be suspicious hence the need for border posts.
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Franglais:
We, including NI, would be in a separate trading zone to Eire for the first time since 1965. And would need to have restrictions on people’s movement for first time since 1923!
And yes after Brexit goods or people using that route would be suspicious hence the need for border posts.
We were both in a seperate trading zone to the EU before 1973.So what changes after Brexit.Why are we suddenly supposed to now get all this supposed contraband trying to get into the UK via NI that we didn’t get then ?.The same applies to non EU,or even controlled EU,traffic like Luxembourg cigs and diesel now as EU members.The border staff are already there at Cairnryan and Heathrow for two examples.In addition to the fact that such controls don’t necessarily only apply at point of entry such as in the case of illegal entrants getting caught before or after entry.While the bs idea that the UK-EU border at Cairnryan supposedly affects NI’s UK status is as stupid as saying that the UK-EU border at Portsmouth or Southampton or even Dover affects the UK status of the Isle of Wight or even the Channel Islands.
Carryfast:
While what is certain is that,like Benn,Heffer and Shore before her,Hoey clearly campaigned on an ideologically Nationalist,not possibly Socialist,hard Brexit ticket
But Benn was a socialist - he made no secret of the fact. So was Labour itself, until Blair gained power.
while Starmer was/is all for Remain just like you and therefore closer to the Globalist Blairites.
Well I’m not “all for” Remain, but I’ve said myself that Starmer is a Remainer and that he’s probably closer to the Blairites. At the very least, he doesn’t (so far) strike me as the sort of person with the ballast and conviction of a left-winger, but as someone who is merely sympathetic, and will do alright in Labour so long as he is sat on the bus sandwiched between two heavyweights (which in this case represents McDonnell and, somewhat incongruously for a metaphor involving physical menace, Corbyn).
Which says everything regarding your arguments.
There’s nothing inconsistent because I’m not arguing that Starmer is a Brexit rottweiler. On the contrary, it is precisely his moderation and measure that makes him suitable for his role, of keeping the Labour party in one piece whilst the pneumatic drill (of logic and electoral arithmetic) is applied to the Blairite ■■■■■■■■■. And if he is called to go to the EU to negotiate, he’s going to have a grip on his brief and have his ducks in a row, without either making a fool of himself on the international stage, nor going in as a vandal to bear his @rse on behalf of Britain one last time before we disappear behind the planks of the drawbridge.
While there wouldn’t be much point in her trying to under mine Coryn’s position just as Davis arguing with May is equally pointless.The contradiction in both cases being that they are lumbered with Socialist and Federalist/Globalist ideology,which is ideologically opposed to their equally ideological Nationalist ideas of secession,so long as they choose to stay with their respective Parties.
But nobody in the Labour party is seeking “ideologically nationalist ideas of secession”. Labour is simply reclaiming the tools to exert more democratic control of our economy. Moving away from a system of free markets in which people have one vote per pound in their bank accounts, where the minority of rich have more votes that the entire working class, back toward a system of democracy in which people have one vote per head at the ballot box.
So an end to one-pound-one-vote, a return to one-head-one-vote: taking back control for working people.
As for EU human rights legislation like everything else regarding the EU it’s full of holes and something which we could do far better ourselves.To the point where it makes us welcome and support those who are pledged to our destruction in the form of radical Islam for one example.So yes that can go in the dustbin of the stupid bit of history which was our EU membership with all the rest of its Federal bs.
I don’t see how we could do better ourselves because it is the British who wrote the human rights laws.