If You Could Vote Again (Brexit)

[winseer]

Rjan:

Franglais:
If there is no border between the the EU including Eire and the UK, wouldn`t companies simply import goods into the lowest taxed area and then move goods across the non-existant borders? Of course they would!

And this applies to people too. Currently Irish citizens, the same as all EU citizens have free passage into the UK. So long as they can prove they have a passport or ID card they can move and work freely. That does not apply to US citizens, either in the UK or Eire or the EU.
After Brexit we in the UK may allow maybe more US workers in because of strong trade deals, and the EU will allow Chinese workers in? So, where do we put the borders? Where do we put the passport controls, and how do we count and check on cross border goods traffic?

It really isn`t some made up obstacle. It is a problem.

Playing devil’s advocate, we are not currently a member of the Schengen Area, and retain full control over non-EU immigration. I think for the EU, the bigger problem is the movement of goods and services, not the movement of people.

Although the EU might well say, they don’t want to be permanently obligated to have a system of red tape with employers checking passports - although we have such a system, I don’t know what the normal practice is in the rest of the EU.

Our governments so far this century - have continued to act as if we ARE in the Schengen area, and we do NOT get to turn away illegal immigrants trying to get here.
What are the exact figures for “illegal immigrants caputured” vs “illegal immigrants incarcerated/deported” at this time?

This figure would be ignoring all those who “got here, got away with it” and have disappeared, of course - only popping up to claim benefits, once someone of their “extended family” has given them a place to stay, to set the payments up at.

Theresa May needed to treat every last illegal immigrant to a man (since most of them are blokes - right?) to the same treatment as Abu Hamza eventually got. But with the addition, that his extended family harbouring a known criminal - get the boot, at least off benefits - as well. Now there’s some Right Wing talk for ya!

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Winseer:
Getting Brexit completed - gets our hands on that 50m per day, first and foremost. If Labour would like to spend every last penny of that on the NHS and make the NHS the biggest public sector monster akin to some kind of “Medical Empire” - then so be it. I can live with that, if that’s what they want.

The reality is you’re not going to get your hands on an extra £50m per day. Stop pretending that it was anything but a right-wing lie.

Whatever the exact figure the truth is that we are a net contributor to the EU budget and it is a bleedin lot of cash running into billions and remainers like you and Starmer support austerity at home to pay for it ( just like Callaghan ).While hypocritically then feigning ‘protest’ against the resulting spending cuts at home.

[rjan]

Winseer:

Rjan:
[…]
This is why I say that it will be a good start if only Brexiteers clarify their own facts, narratives, and requirements from Brexit.

Taking back control of the money paid to Brussels. That means stop paying it. It hasn’t happened, when it could have been done the very weekend after the referendum.
Removing ourselves from EU judicial control, that doesn’t allow us to jail anyone except Right Wingers for “Free Speech” crimes, doesn’t allow us to quickly remove Hate speakers like Abu Hamza, and obliges us to take in the next lot of would-be terrorists, who seem to always get more rights than UK taxpayers do, - all without any say, checks, or balances - from the UK judiciary.
Immigration and free movement of Labour - I’m neutral on. Don’t care if we keep it. Don’t mind losing it.

You can take back control of money paid to Brussels, but it doesn’t mean you’re any better off or that the money is freely disposable. Just like the analogy I use of a wife who says she’ll regain control of the mortgage money if she divorces her husband - the reality is she’ll still have to pay the mortgage with that money. If you want to spend EU budget money differently than it is currently spent by the EU, then make that argument, rather than pretending that you’ll save money.

That’s why farmers have been sold a crock, because the Tories have made it clear their subsidies will disappear if we leave the EU. But that’s not what those farmers understood they were voting for.

As for “EU judicial control”, our judges sit in the EU judiciary. And no right-wingers have been jailed for free speech - they get jailed for outright lies or interfering with the course of British justice that has existed for centuries, such as that couple who hectored and slandered totally innocent people with malicious lies, and then tried to disrupt a trial of rapists (which could have meant those rapists going free, for god’s sake, that’s how barmy that couple were). That’s why they were sent to prison, and for bloody good reason, not for “speaking freely”.

Nick Griffin hasn’t been anywhere near a jail cell - nor has Tommy Robinson. This idea that they all get jailed is nonsense. What they object to is that they’re not allowed to tell lies or whip up lynch mobs without being jailed.

Surely, your view of the Tories here - is the manufactured Left view of the Tories… Could I ask when the last time you voted Conservative was?

Never!

What’s “Conservative” about driving down wages, instead of maintaining a quality workforce?

Nothing is conservative about it! That’s why even some (better) bosses are up in arms, and so are the Tory moderates. The Tory party is controlled by right-wing radicals.

[rjan]

Winseer:
The Peasant’s Revolt could be considered the last time that actual UK-living citizens - tried to turn over their establishment. They duly got fobbed off, the ringleaders rounded up and executed, and “Rustics you were, Rustics you will Remain” being uttered by Kid-King Richard, making any student of History surely think “Once bitten, twice shy” when it comes to trusting their establishment to keep their word - until that word is fully implemented. Let’s not let Brexit turn into a similar kind of “failure” for the British People then.

So by your own logic, where was the “Magna Carta” in protecting those peasant’s rights? Where is this tradition of British justice, democracy, and people’s rights going back to Magna Carta?

If we could just settle on the fact that these sorts of narratives are utter codswallop, we’d be getting somewhere sensible.

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Franglais:
If there is no border between the the EU including Eire and the UK, wouldn`t companies simply import goods into the lowest taxed area and then move goods across the non-existant borders? Of course they would!

And this applies to people too. Currently Irish citizens, the same as all EU citizens have free passage into the UK. So long as they can prove they have a passport or ID card they can move and work freely. That does not apply to US citizens, either in the UK or Eire or the EU.
After Brexit we in the UK may allow maybe more US workers in because of strong trade deals, and the EU will allow Chinese workers in? So, where do we put the borders? Where do we put the passport controls, and how do we count and check on cross border goods traffic?

It really isn`t some made up obstacle. It is a problem.

Playing devil’s advocate, we are not currently a member of the Schengen Area, and retain full control over non-EU immigration. I think for the EU, the bigger problem is the movement of goods and services, not the movement of people.

Here’s a clue try moving a truck load of cigs or a tanker full of diesel bought in Luxembourg to Calais and then through Dover to be sold here.Doubtful the load would even reach Calais without being stopped by flying squad of Belgian or French customs agents let alone what would happen at Dover.That’s your bs supposed single market and no customs barriers in action.

[rjan]

Winseer:
Our governments so far this century - have continued to act as if we ARE in the Schengen area, and we do NOT get to turn away illegal immigrants trying to get here.
What are the exact figures for “illegal immigrants caputured” vs “illegal immigrants incarcerated/deported” at this time?

This figure would be ignoring all those who “got here, got away with it” and have disappeared, of course - only popping up to claim benefits, once someone of their “extended family” has given them a place to stay, to set the payments up at.

Theresa May needed to treat every last illegal immigrant to a man (since most of them are blokes - right?) to the same treatment as Abu Hamza eventually got. But with the addition, that his extended family harbouring a known criminal - get the boot, at least off benefits - as well. Now there’s some Right Wing talk for ya!

How do you reconcile this narrative with the fact that even legal Commonwealth citizens who’d been here 50 years, could not keep their jobs, claim benefits, or get back into the country?

How is it, do you think, that these “illegal immigrants” seamlessly seem to get jobs, get benefits, get houses, and yet people with the right to these things don’t? Have you ever actually met an illegal immigrant in your workplace, at the job centre, or living down the road?

Is it not possible that you’re mistaken as to the numbers of illegal immigrants that actually exist, having used as your source the headlines of the Daily Mail or the Sun?

I mean nobody can stop illegal immigrants being kept by families in the basements as domestic help, but this idea that they walk around and have normal jobs, normal lives, and interact with the state without ever being identified, is laughable.

In fact I did once meet a group of illegal immigrants once from Africa, four or five of them, about 15 years ago. Speaking to one, my suspicions that he was illegal (although he reckoned not) were later confirmed when he was suddenly raided and shipped back. I don’t know whether they’d overstayed a student visa maybe or something, I can’t remember the detail - they couldn’t have been around for more than maybe 4 months before that happened.

We do have control over non-EU migration. Perhaps what you’re also thinking about are refugees or asylum seekers, who do at least provisionally have a right to be in the EU. I’m not saying all of them are genuine (although all are probably fleeing pretty dire circumstances, even if it doesn’t amount to something they’d receive asylum for), but when the UK produces through it’s foreign policy huge flows of refugees, obviously you’re going to get hangers-on in the crowds.

[franglais]

Rjan:

Franglais:
If there is no border between the the EU including Eire and the UK, wouldn`t companies simply import goods into the lowest taxed area and then move goods across the non-existant borders? Of course they would!

And this applies to people too. Currently Irish citizens, the same as all EU citizens have free passage into the UK. So long as they can prove they have a passport or ID card they can move and work freely. That does not apply to US citizens, either in the UK or Eire or the EU.
After Brexit we in the UK may allow maybe more US workers in because of strong trade deals, and the EU will allow Chinese workers in? So, where do we put the borders? Where do we put the passport controls, and how do we count and check on cross border goods traffic?

It really isn`t some made up obstacle. It is a problem.

Playing devil’s advocate, we are not currently a member of the Schengen Area, and retain full control over non-EU immigration. I think for the EU, the bigger problem is the movement of goods and services, not the movement of people.

Although the EU might well say, they don’t want to be permanently obligated to have a system of red tape with employers checking passports - although we have such a system, I don’t know what the normal practice is in the rest of the EU.

As I understand the nuts and bolts of Schengen is to have stronger borders at the edge of the EU and weaker ones inside it? If illegal immigrants are stopped at the edge, then we can assume all inside are legal. This way Austria can pay into a fund, so Greece and Spain have better borders and coastal patrols. So long as Austria, Spain and Greece have similar immigration policies, no problem.
What responsibilities do EU countries put on employers regarding vetting employees? Read on.
Here there are rules but how well enforced are they?

Regarding your question to Winseer about illegal immigrants being employed: any hand car wash stations near you? Work out the number of workers, and time taken per car, and some are on less than min wage without even looking at chemicals etc. They won`t be on the cards will they?

I had a bit of a natter with someone involved with security near one of ports on the French side of the channel. They suggested that it wasnt the promise of free handouts attracting illegal immigration to the UK, but the "grey economy". Illegals in France wont starve, but wont get work off the cards. In the UK they believe they will get work. I dont know the truth of that, but it does seem possible.

[rjan]

Carryfast:
No you want a remainer Starmer Brexit which means remain in all but name.The Leave manifesto can be nothing other than Leave which by definition means an end to our contributions and a complete end to EU rule here

And that’s not going to happen if you expect access to their markets! So you’re either choosing one or the other - membership fees, or a lack of free access. And if you are happy with the latter, then be consistent about what you’re demanding. There’s no point being a “cakeist” who thinks you’re going to have all the benefits of membership without any of the costs.

And there was no “Leave manifesto” at the time of the referendum, or have I overlooked a crucial document?

including the juristiction of the ECJ and an end to free movement.

I support an end to free movement, but understand that the ECJ will still govern the EU itself, and if we want our products to be sold there or our services to be provided there, we’re still going to be subject to EU law as far as those exports are concerned.

Take Data Protection for example - if you want to do business with EU citizens (maybe even just an online service), you’re going to have to comply, or else not provide the service. And unlike now, we’ll have no British judges in the ECJ, and no influence. I’m not saying this to rattle you, just to try and pick away at exactly what you want from Brexit!

Which can only be delivered by so called hard Brexit.While whatever ‘rules’ are set regarding trade between nations none of them involve the type of Federal rule involved in membership of the EU nor the blackmail of handing over cash for the privilege.

The only untruths here are those which the remainers like you are desperately clinging to in the hope that you can reverse the referendum decision to Leave with you knowing full well that Leave means Leave.

I’m not trying to reverse anything, let alone with “untruths”. I’ve been perfectly frank and consistent with you.

As for no border between UK and EU have you ever actually driven through the UK ‘border’ at Dover from Calais which certainly does include customs checks just as it did before 1973.Or know what air side means at Heathrow.Which applies just the same regardless of where the ‘aircraft’ in question arrived from whether Belfast or bleedin Korea.Or for that matter why would Cairnryan ferry terminal have UK border staff on duty as opposed to Lymington.

There are no customs checks with the island of Ireland (and they, too, are not members of the Schengen area). Heathrow caters for the whole world.

As for Dover, why are they saying there’s going to be queues on the M25, if the infrastructure is in fact already in place? Why have the Dutch said they’re going to have to make a huge investment too? Or is this all this investment just a conspiracy fear narrative by Remainers, but which not even right-wing Brexiteers have contradicted?

[rjan]

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Winseer:
Getting Brexit completed - gets our hands on that 50m per day, first and foremost. If Labour would like to spend every last penny of that on the NHS and make the NHS the biggest public sector monster akin to some kind of “Medical Empire” - then so be it. I can live with that, if that’s what they want.

The reality is you’re not going to get your hands on an extra £50m per day. Stop pretending that it was anything but a right-wing lie.

Whatever the exact figure the truth is that we are a net contributor to the EU budget and it is a bleedin lot of cash running into billions and remainers like you and Starmer support austerity at home to pay for it ( just like Callaghan ).While hypocritically then feigning ‘protest’ against the resulting spending cuts at home.

No one denies that we are a net contributor. When a husband and wife live together, it is (traditionally) the case that he is the net contributor to the mortgage. But when they separate, the husband’s mortgage costs do not suddenly sink to zero - if he wants to live in the same sort of house with the same overall space and amenity, then the costs are the same (i.e. he contributes the same when separated as he contributed when married), but now he has also to cook for himself, clean for himself, and shop for himself.

And ultimately, unless he lives alone for the remainder of his life, then he ends up in exactly the same arrangement with any new wife that he finds. It is the same with the EU or any other trading partner.

As for austerity, you really are veering into rank dishonesty here. When have I ever supported austerity? You think my attacks against austerity are “feigned”?

[carryfast]

Winseer:

Carryfast:
What’s the difference between a Socialist who wants to do anything for the “many and not the few” - but only in Britain - and a Non-Socialist, who attempts to at least see some kind of bigger picture? We only joined the EEC in the first place, because Britain was on it’s kneeds in the 70’s after governments both left and right failed to address the leakage that winding-down workshop-of-the-world Britain was panning out in our economy as. Moving from a Manufacturing to a Service-based economy was, is, and continues to be the hardest “adjustment” that this country ever had to make since the war, economically.

I’m actually somewhere in between. I’m all for “jobs for Britain” which means jobs for all those immigrants already here as well, of course. I’m not actually interested (as a Leave Voter, or Center-Rightist) in sending anyone home “just for being an immigrant”. I’m only interested in getting rid of those here with no job, attempting to undermine our society with their incompatible faith, no integration, no women, and no acceptance of British Home-grown ways. Let’s call a spade a spade here, and I’ll say that I’m Anti Islamic immigrant, and Pro Eastern European immigrant. For those fully EU immigrants - I never had any issues with them to start with, as the “free movement of people and Labour” was always pretty smooth IF you had that “job lined up”.

I’d have to say “Vote Corbyn, Get McCluskey, Vote May, Get Merkel, Vote Cable, Get Merkel” now.

I don’t think Corbyn chose Hoey, because Starmer chose Starmer. Hoey was being villified ahead of the 2017 election in her own constituency - and then confounded the “haters” by increasing her already massive majority there… To say she ■■■■■■ all over the Remainer activists that were trying to get actual Labour voters to ditch her - would be an understatement.
0

Where do you get the idea that Britain was ‘on its knees’ in 1972 ?.As opposed to 1975 to date.

Our manufacturing base and mining industries being slaughtered after 1972 not before that point.As would be expected with Germany being top dog in Euroland and always intended by all concerned to stay there as part of our EU membership.In large part for the reasons given by Heath and Rjan of unfounded paranoid fear of more aggro with them if they didn’t get their way.The move from manufacturing based economy to service,while Germany kept its wealth creating industry,all being part of that.

As for excessive immigration I see it all being as bad as each other.But the import of alien Asian and African populations and all the inherent aggro that goes with it obviously being based in large part on different reasons than East Euro immigration.Societal in the case of the former and economic reasons in the case of the latter.

Having said that don’t be under any illusions as to the ability of the Slavic groups to kick off even among themselves let alone against us if things go pear shaped.Also bearing in mind that history shows that immigrant groups always eventually go for self determination along their own ethnic lines if/when numbers reach critical mass.Not to mention providing an excuse for their own foreign support to invade and/or destabilise a country regardless.Ironically in this case the EU and those foreign states already stating that they will step in and ignore UK sovereignty to impose the interests of their own immigrant groups here along their own national lines.In a similar way that Hitler used the excuse of the Sudetenland Germans to wipe out the sovereignty of Chekoslovakia.

As for Hoey the fact that Corbyn allowed Labour remainers to vilify her and didn’t over rule them,to put Hoey into the job of shadow Brexit minister and instead has allowed remainers to set the agenda,in the form of Starmer,says everything about the contradiction between Socialism v what can only be the Nationalist idea of Secession.Socialists will always have to ideologically come down on the side of anti nation state Federalism and unfortunately,like Shore and Heffer etc before her she’s rightly been branded as a Labour Nationalist and therefore totally incompatible with the Socialist line.Which explains Rjan’s bs excuse in her being too ‘controversial’ to be given the job as opposed to remainer Starmer.Let alone then blatantly defending the remain agenda here, while at the same time pretending to support Brexit,just like Corbyn.

Realistically the only thing that can save the country now is a massive swing to UKIP.

[rjan]

Franglais:
I had a bit of a natter with someone involved with security near one of ports on the French side of the channel. They suggested that it wasnt the promise of free handouts attracting illegal immigration to the UK, but the "grey economy". Illegals in France wont starve, but wont get work off the cards. In the UK they believe they will get work. I dont know the truth of that, but it does seem possible.

It certainly seems plausible, partly because of the degree of “self-employment” in the UK, and the government’s attitude to enforcing tax and regulations against small businesses. Not in large firms, but if you’re running an Indian restaurant, a car wash, or things like that, how difficult is it to avoid declaring the worker?

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Carryfast:
No you want a remainer Starmer Brexit which means remain in all but name.The Leave manifesto can be nothing other than Leave which by definition means an end to our contributions and a complete end to EU rule here

And that’s not going to happen if you expect access to their markets! So you’re either choosing one or the other - membership fees, or a lack of free access. And if you are happy with the latter, then be consistent about what you’re demanding. There’s no point being a “cakeist” who thinks you’re going to have all the benefits of membership without any of the costs.

And there was no “Leave manifesto” at the time of the referendum, or have I overlooked a crucial document?

including the juristiction of the ECJ and an end to free movement.

I support an end to free movement, but understand that the ECJ will still govern the EU itself, and if we want our products to be sold there or our services to be provided there, we’re still going to be subject to EU law as far as those exports are concerned.

Take Data Protection for example - if you want to do business with EU citizens (maybe even just an online service), you’re going to have to comply, or else not provide the service. And unlike now, we’ll have no British judges in the ECJ, and no influence. I’m not saying this to rattle you, just to try and pick away at exactly what you want from Brexit!

Which can only be delivered by so called hard Brexit.While whatever ‘rules’ are set regarding trade between nations none of them involve the type of Federal rule involved in membership of the EU nor the blackmail of handing over cash for the privilege.

The only untruths here are those which the remainers like you are desperately clinging to in the hope that you can reverse the referendum decision to Leave with you knowing full well that Leave means Leave.

I’m not trying to reverse anything, let alone with “untruths”. I’ve been perfectly frank and consistent with you.

As for no border between UK and EU have you ever actually driven through the UK ‘border’ at Dover from Calais which certainly does include customs checks just as it did before 1973.Or know what air side means at Heathrow.Which applies just the same regardless of where the ‘aircraft’ in question arrived from whether Belfast or bleedin Korea.Or for that matter why would Cairnryan ferry terminal have UK border staff on duty as opposed to Lymington.

There are no customs checks with the island of Ireland (and they, too, are not members of the Schengen area). Heathrow caters for the whole world.

As for Dover, why are they saying there’s going to be queues on the M25, if the infrastructure is in fact already in place? Why have the Dutch said they’re going to have to make a huge investment too? Or is this all this investment just a conspiracy fear narrative by Remainers, but which not even right-wing Brexiteers have contradicted?

Why the bs one sided remainer narrative.What other country would allow itself to be blackmailed to the tune of billions for the privilege of importing more stuff than we export to them and when our domestic market is worth more to us than their’s.

As for the Irish question.Yes Heathrow is an international airport.Feel free to provide info as to which airport ( or sea port ) provides passenger/freight services to/from Northern Ireland without Customs and immigration facilities.Also what’s the difference between an international air traveller/freight and a Northern Irish traveller/freight when they are both air side/dock side and before going through immigration/customs.

Or for that matter even as EU member states exactly what and exactly where stops anyone from bringing in an artic load of cigs or a tanker load of diesel to the UK mainland,from Luxembourg,or a bus load of Somali ‘tourists’ picked up from Sicily,via France,Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland ?.Are you saying that would be allowed under free movement of goods and people and that there are no border check points crossed between Lux or Italy and UK and if so exactly which border points and where ?.

[carryfast]

Rjan:
No one denies that we are a net contributor. When a husband and wife live together, it is (traditionally) the case that he is the net contributor to the mortgage. But when they separate, the husband’s mortgage costs do not suddenly sink to zero - if he wants to live in the same sort of house with the same overall space and amenity, then the costs are the same (i.e. he contributes the same when separated as he contributed when married), but now he has also to cook for himself, clean for himself, and shop for himself.

And ultimately, unless he lives alone for the remainder of his life, then he ends up in exactly the same arrangement with any new wife that he finds. It is the same with the EU or any other trading partner.

As for austerity, you really are veering into rank dishonesty here. When have I ever supported austerity? You think my attacks against austerity are “feigned”?

How do you make EU membership the same as marriage.We leave the EU we are no longer responsible for meeting ‘any’ of the conditions of EU membership.Which obviously means our EU contributions.So why the zb would we still want to pay them having left.

No there are no rules with any other ‘trading’ partner which mean paying that partner cash for the privilege of trade.Let alone the US for example saying that all further US imports will be dependent on becoming a US state.On that note if you buy or sell a car since when do you have to marry the bleedin buyer or seller first ?.

Only in Socialist la la land.Just like the idea that anyone could import a truck load of cigs from Lux via Southern and Northern Ireland without crossing any customs lines and being subject to any customs when they enter the UK mainland with it.

[carryfast]

Rjan:
As for austerity, you really are veering into rank dishonesty here. When have I ever supported austerity? You think my attacks against austerity are “feigned”?

If I’ve read it right you expressed your ‘agreement’ ? with Callaghan’s policy of wage restraint and public sector cuts to deal with price led inflation caused by the increase in oil prices.While blaming the unions for not being prepared to go along with it by accepting the cuts ?.When we were floating on a sea of our own oil which Callaghan ‘could’ have ordered be sold on the domestic market at a massive price reduction over world market prices.Oh wait that would have given us an advantage over your friends ze Germans.

[winseer]

I think it’s time both Left and RIght realized that the centerists have got us both played against each other.

May is a Centerist now, but to the Left, she seems to be pushing the “Hard Right” evelope.

As a person who voted (reluctantly) Conservative last year - I’ll tell you that May is nowhere near Right Wing enough these days. She’s left Rudd to continue making a bad name for the conservatives over the daftest decisions (getting rid of Windrush citizens instead of Abu-Come-Latelys with no job lined up) She’s made bad decisions in not taking the “ripping a plaster off” approach to Brexit, with the “Gordium Knot” solution not even being on the table nearly two years on from the referendum now.

If Labour Brexiteers “don’t want May to complete” because they are afraid the Tories would squander that money anywhere but upon the British People - then the solution is for Labour to come up with a hard-and-fast Brexit plan of their own, and truly become a government in waiting.
They can’t though, because the Labour Remainers - won’t let it be so. Thus, they Remain/Brexit sides of Labour cancel each other out, in their collective political effectiveness.

The Tories? - You’ve got a Remainer senior cabinet pushing against the river flow that is now taking us out of the EU, with just the cost of it to the UK to be decided.
I’d have been most happy with the costs being lumped upon the thieving Brussels bureaucrats that have nicked money off us for the past 40 odd years already. Enough was Enough. We voted to stop all that.

The Libdems are still wielding far too much power for a party that has lost over 75% of it’s seats in less than 3 years. It’s time they realized that “Remain” IS and WAS always a lost cause.

If the Tories and Labour could realize the same - we might be able to move forward as a country. Once done, the population will go back to electing the party that would spend that 10-figure sum per year in a way most pleasing to them. If that’s Labour -then so be it. For the time being though, Labour need to assist in Getting Brexit Done, because throwing the entire country under the bus for “Party Political Reasons” - will NEVER get Labour back into power otherwise.

I’m more convinced the Salisbury Incident and Syrian Chemical Weapons are lies, than the “£350m on the side of the bus” was. At worst, it was an exaggeration. It can only be a “Lie” if we actually make no net contriubution to Brussels at all. Wanna suggest THAT was a lie?

RIght now, I’m not trusting either May nor Starmer to see Brexit done. May being removed, or Starmer being removed - would help Brexit no end now.
Get into power, and that 10-figure sum is a gradual build-up of unspent money in the coffers.

The very worst “Skinflint” option the Tories have with any “£50m per day saved” - would be to boringly use it to pay down the deficit, as that useless git George Osbourne would have done.

[winseer]

If Hoey ever replaced Starmer - Hoey could hold May’s feet to the fire, and make a proper opposition of Labour. Once it’s realized that the Tories have been stalling these past two years, and Labour Brexiteers are going to sieze the initiative - May’s position would become untenable, unless she lurches back to the Right, and hurries up doing a rather harder brexit than she had originally intended.
It won’t save May for another election though. She’s already Toxic to the Conservative Party, incapable of winning an election already, and practically a zombie PM as we speak.

The only way the Tories can win the next election, is for the Tory Brexiteers “fed up of waiting” to remove May before she’s ready to go, and implement that harder Brexit that I strongly suspect is the only actual option that will actually deliver Brexit in the end.

Thus if May is replaced by say, Rees-Mogg, then the Conservatives chances of winning an election increase. They’ll most likely bring that next election forward, as is their remit as the incumbent government.

If Starmer is replaced by Hoey before the above happens - then Labour’s position as “Government in Waiting” is raised from the eternal sea it’s currently floundering in, - and it’ll be the Tory party on the ropes, staggering like a drunken sailor to the 2022 election, which the Tories would have no chance of winning without a full, hard, and complete Brexit being done in time. With May’s lack of commencement let alone completion of Brexit - I’m not sure a late-taking-over Brexit hardliner - could turn up the fortunes of the Tories, even in time for the 2022 election, which is as late as the next election can be, of course.

For Leftists who want to see Corbyn win that next election - It’s for you to push for Brexit, because it’s even more toxic for Tories (unwilling to spend the money to the public’s liking, unwilling to chase it for the public’s benefit) than it is for Labour (dunno wtf they are doing, ongoingly)

It sounds like I’m making a leftist argument for them - but I’d happily pay the price of a Labour government IF… IF… Brexit is fully done by that point.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
As a person who voted (reluctantly) Conservative last year - I’ll tell you that May is nowhere near Right Wing enough these days. She’s left Rudd to continue making a bad name for the conservatives over the daftest decisions (getting rid of Windrush citizens

The Tories? - You’ve got a Remainer senior cabinet pushing against the river flow that is now taking us out of the EU, with just the cost of it to the UK to be decided.
I’d have been most happy with the costs being lumped upon the thieving Brussels bureaucrats that have nicked money off us for the past 40 odd years already. Enough was Enough. We voted to stop all that.

The Libdems are still wielding far too much power for a party that has lost over 75% of it’s seats in less than 3 years. It’s time they realized that “Remain” IS and WAS always a lost cause.

If the Tories and Labour could realize the same - we might be able to move forward as a country. Once done, the population will go back to electing the party that would spend that 10-figure sum per year in a way most pleasing to them. If that’s Labour -then so be it. For the time being though, Labour need to assist in Getting Brexit Done, because throwing the entire country under the bus for “Party Political Reasons” - will NEVER get Labour back into power otherwise.

I’m more convinced the Salisbury Incident and Syrian Chemical Weapons are lies, than the “£350m on the side of the bus” was. At worst, it was an exaggeration. It can only be a “Lie” if we actually make no net contriubution to Brussels at all. Wanna suggest THAT was a lie?

RIght now, I’m not trusting either May nor Starmer to see Brexit done. May being removed, or Starmer being removed - would help Brexit no end now.
Get into power, and that 10-figure sum is a gradual build-up of unspent money in the coffers.

Firstly the real question regarding the Windrush bollox is why should any,let alone following,generations of Afro Caribbeans have been/be given any more rights regarding so called ‘Commonwealth’ free movement here than we have with Australia,NZ,or Canada.In which the issue of repatriation if anyone doesn’t meet the grade ( or the bureaucracy ) is still very much a factor for us in the case of the latter,including retrospectively applied.IE the ‘Commonwealth’ was always rigged in favour of selectively applied free movement that only met the cheap labour and Socialist alliance establishment vote agenda.Which is what this is all about,mainly votes for whichever side is perceived as offering them the most.Which is why Labour and the Cons are now in competition to see who can offer them the best deal.That’s a left wing argument not a right wing one.Bearing in mind that the so called ‘right’ is more cheap labour orientated than it is anti immigration.Which is one of the reasons why Powell ended up kicked out of the Cons.

As for Starmer.Him not being replaced with Hoey as shadow Brexit minister is the smoking gun which proves Corbyn’s real motives.Just as Cameron made sure that May and Hammond took over the Conservative agenda and then filled her cabinet with remainers.With instinctive remainers like Rjan and Corbyn taking full advantage of that lifeline that they’ve been thrown by her.On that note don’t underestimate the hand that this remain conspiracy within has and has every intention of making best use of.Realistically without a major UKIP upset in the polls the only hope that Brexit has at best stands somewhere between Bob Hope and No Hope.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
If Hoey ever replaced Starmer - Hoey could hold May’s feet to the fire, and make a proper opposition of Labour.

^ This.It would be a Tory massacre.

Then we’d see just how much Rjan’s lot ( and by implication Corbyn ) are really opposed to the Blairites.Everything he’s said here not looking good in that regard.

[carryfast]

express.co.uk/news/politics/ … toms-union

Davis joining UKIP and Hoey replacing Starmer would probably be the game changers that would get the job done and finally make the remainers give up.

[franglais]

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Franglais:
If there is no border between the the EU including Eire and the UK, wouldn`t companies simply import goods into the lowest taxed area and then move goods across the non-existant borders? Of course they would!

And this applies to people too. Currently Irish citizens, the same as all EU citizens have free passage into the UK. So long as they can prove they have a passport or ID card they can move and work freely. That does not apply to US citizens, either in the UK or Eire or the EU.
After Brexit we in the UK may allow maybe more US workers in because of strong trade deals, and the EU will allow Chinese workers in? So, where do we put the borders? Where do we put the passport controls, and how do we count and check on cross border goods traffic?

It really isn`t some made up obstacle. It is a problem.

Playing devil’s advocate, we are not currently a member of the Schengen Area, and retain full control over non-EU immigration. I think for the EU, the bigger problem is the movement of goods and services, not the movement of people.

Here’s a clue try moving a truck load of cigs or a tanker full of diesel bought in Luxembourg to Calais and then through Dover to be sold here.Doubtful the load would even reach Calais without being stopped by flying squad of Belgian or French customs agents let alone what would happen at Dover.That’s your bs supposed single market and no customs barriers in action.

Easy to solve that problem, have an equal rate of duty on all tobacco, alcohol and fuels throughout the EU.
No more hassle with smugglers, customs docs, or evasion and avoidance of fuel duties.
Well pointed out CF, we need more integration, not less!

OK, by choosing Cigs and Fuel you are talking of goods that have duty as well as VAT. Those goods are subject to special rules not only in International but also in National transport.
Moving tobacco even within the UK isn`t a typical operation is it? Unlike VAT, the C & E seem to assume that duties, being much higher, are more likely to be evaded so take more interest.

Even today if you can buy tobacco more cheaply in Lux, you can then sell it here provided you pay UK duty on it. You aren`t pointing out any flaws in the system, merely highlighting the freedom we have to charge different taxes from other EU countries.