If You Could Vote Again (Brexit)

[winseer]

I think that Brexiteers were united on wanting “Change” - ANY change - but are then divided again over what amounts to “Left” Brexit and “Right” Brexit.

Left Brexit is about jobs, benefits money - being spent at home, on the Brits - rather than spent on Brussel’s Bureaucrats’ rampant wastage.
Left Brexit either wants a quality job laid on, OR improved benefits.

Right Brexit is about protecting jobs one already holds down, without the guts being driven out of one’s own business, due to excessive red tape, in particular the endless “Compliance” legislations.
Right Brexit is about getting away from EU judicial control - so we can have our own version of Law and Order based on Magna Carta back in our country, as per the wishes of most people.

Ask even a Left Wing Activist “What should we do with Child Killers and Nazis” - and they’ll all be suddenly in favour of the harshest of criminal justice sentences - the Death Penalty.

The Liberals are out on their own a bit, being the ones that “could not possibly hang a mass murderer/■■■■■■ of children, because that would make us as bad as he is”. ■■■■■■■■ would it.

So, for the most part - Ordinary Left and Right people share common ground on Law & Order.

Then comes the quagmire… The mechanism whereby the 1% control another 47%…

What are the remainers that are still remainers - scared of exactly?

Loss of Human Rights?
Loss of Worker’s Rights?

FFS We’ve got Centerist-running Theresa May as PM now. She’s got no majority to push through “unpopular” Employment Law changes like Macron is trying to do in France!

NO one was ever talking about “really scrapping the NMW” or “Paid Holidays” or “Whistblower Immunity”.
They were all part of the many made-up scare stories.
Then the Capital Punishment/Own Laws debate gets weakened by “Ooooh. We’re so stooopid that we can’t possibly administer justice properly on our own”.

Whilst I reckon many Remainers are just as Remainer as ever - the same can be said of the Brexiteers.

We’re probably closer to the original 52/48 split as we have ever been now.

The breakout?

Could come at any time, or not at all. Inflation is starting to fall back again now, and with it any hopes of runaway interest rate rises.
Today’s Elderly are not as please with voting Tory as they once were.
Today’s University Population - will be more concerned about getting a job as Graduates by the time of the next election.

Who’s still there to worry about a bunch of people you’ve never met before everyone around you that you have met?

Ideals Ideals Ideals.

Education. Job. Relationships. Marriage. Affordable Home. Nice Life. Good Environment to bring up the next generation.

What happened to the “British Dream”?

Instead, we have Indoctrination. Bi Polar Epidemic. Unaffordable, even to Rent accommodation. Nice life - if you can get it. Environment that you get told off for abusing. Next generation that don’t even know what gender they are any more.

People just can’t DO stuff any more. Stuff for themselves, Paid work for others.
We’re not Sheep so much anymore - just “Fatted Cattle” ripe for the slaughter now.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
I think that Brexiteers were united on wanting “Change” - ANY change - but are then divided again over what amounts to “Left” Brexit and “Right” Brexit.

Left Brexit is about jobs, benefits money - being spent at home, on the Brits - rather than spent on Brussel’s Bureaucrats’ rampant wastage.
Left Brexit either wants a quality job laid on, OR improved benefits.

You’ve totally missed the point that left can mean Nationalist or it can mean Socialist.The Socialists will tell you that only Socialism means left and Nationalism can only possibly mean right which is a total lie.

As you’ll have seen with Rjan’s position and Callaghan’s and Jenkins etc before him Socialists can’t possibly do anything which would put this country’s interests ahead of those of the anti Nation state EU Federalist collective’s.Because that’s what and who they are ideologically.

While it’s only Nationalist Brexit which can deliver money spent ‘at home’ and Brit jobs for Brit workers if for no other reason Socialists don’t even recognise Britain as a sovereign state.They only recognise the interests of the collective and its leadership which has no National borders and in which their idea of democracy is the status quo of the European Commissioners and majority Federal vote having supremacy over the National vote and wishes of the seperate states as part of that.

So vote Corbyn get Callaghan.Which means more Brit cash spent in Europe not at home and more jobs for EU workers in the form of our ongoing trade deficit and free movement of labour to over supply the labour market regarding what jobs we’ve got left.While Rjan’s lot will then say it doesn’t matter because they’ll align the wage structure across the EU.When even Corbyn has never once stated any intention of making such a move while Rjan has already blamed the 1970’s inflation catastrophe on British workers not being prepared to follow Callaghan’s policy of trying to fix price led inflation with wage cuts,while German workers laughed all the way to the bank.

Not to mention the ongoing question if Corbyn had the slightest intention of delivering Brexit then why wouldn’t he have chosen Hoey as shadow Brexit minister not remainer Starmer.IE don’t fall for the lie of Socialists pretending to be for Brexit all flying under the flag of convenience of supposed left Brexit.When what they really want is to hijack the process and then help those like May and Hammond to deliver remain in all but name if not reverse the whole thing.

[franglais]

Winseer:
I think that Brexiteers were united on wanting “Change” - ANY change - but are then divided again over what amounts to “Left” Brexit and “Right” Brexit.

Absolutely correct there IMHO.
The referendum was a binary choice.

Remain:
Remain in a less than perfect system, that we had experience of and could clearly see all the hiccups and problems within it.

Leave:
Believe in a genuine difficult road to life outside the EU, that may lead to an improvement.
Believe two birds in the bushy wide world are better than one in the EU hand.
Believe the Common Wealth and rest of the world will automatically give us a better deal than we have in the EU.
Believe in a “left” Brexit.
Believe in a “right” Brexit.
Believe in 50 million quid for the NHS every day.
Believe in unicorns and fairies and all the politicians promises and sunny pastures new.

[franglais]

Carryfast:

Franglais:

Carryfast:
I’ve already explained that there is no issue over the Irish ‘border’ because that was all sorted by the early 1920’s with numerous advantageous amendments since.With all inter Irish-UK relations still applying as to those agreements.The only difference would be that ‘EU’ entries to the UK via Ireland would now be viewed as just as foreign as US ones assuming that we ditch the single market.In the real world such entries not existing anyway.

Define ‘favourable’ trade deals ?.Bearing in mind the present situation of us exchanging sovereignty and cash for the privilege of being a net importer of EU products ( especially German products ).

Favorable trade deals? The ones were trying to negotiate at the moment. You know, we ones we can cut as outside the EU? Or are you as sceptical about these two birds in the bush as I am?? And if we had a less favorable deal with the EU, why wouldnt any company export their goods (freely) from the EU into Eire, no border, then into the UK??
This the whole point of the problem…
If there can`t be hard border between the places I listed before there will be no border between the UK and the EU.

Before youve said youd like a tax on Merc cars?
They must be tax free from Germany into Eire.
You say no border in Ulster, so they will go freely from Dublin to Belfast, and so freely from Belfast to London…
And the same for Hans, Pierre, or Ivan or whoever.

Trade from the US?
Assume we get a deal to buy food cheaper from the US than from the EU? The EU may have higher import duties on US foods than we have, due to us exporting Jags cheaper than the EU exports Mercs?? Thats one of the aims isnt it ?
So, cheap food into Liverpool, free movement into Belfast, then into Dublin, then into the EU…
Where will YOU put the border?
And if you say "Great well turn a profit on the trade". We in the UK put a big tax on Mercs coming into the UK to support our car makers....you know whats coming don`t you?..
Mercs into Dublin (EU free trade) so to Belfast (the 1972 border) so to the UK… Mercs in London evading all duties.

I cant see how itll work.
And so far no one else can either.

You didn’t answer the US immigration/import example.IE we’ve already got the situation of foreign people and goods being subject to UK immigration and customs even if they enter via Southern Ireland with no hard border required between Southern and Northern Ireland.

As for Northern Irish not accepting a so called ‘hard’ border between UK and Northern Ireland as I said we’ve already got one every time they step off of an aircraft at Heathrow from Belfast or a ferry when landing at Cairnryan.

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s … d-16729902

As I said the whole issue is a red herring being invented by remainers ( including among the DUP ) as a non existent obstacle to keep us tied to their Federal European dreams.As for can’t see how it will work it will work in exactly the same way that it ‘worked’ before 1973.More like don’t want to see how it will work.

Pre 1973, when the UK and Eire joined the then Common Market, the UK and Eire were in the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965. We were in a customs and free movement block.
UK and EIRE SAME zone

Now we are all including Eire and NI and the UK all in the EU customs and free movement zone.
UK and EIRE SAME zone

After Brexit we in the UK will be in a different zone than Eire.
UK and EIRE DIFFERENT zones.

The idea of Brexit is that we in the UK will get better trade deals outside the EU than inside it, isnt it? I have doubts about the likelihood but well ignore that and assume it`s so.

At the moment assume all the EU has a 20% tax on US imports and 10% tax on Chinese imports.
After Brexit assume we get a good trade deal with the US so agree to drop our import tax to 10%, and we can now trade less with China to we put a 20% tax on what we import from them.

If there is no border between the the EU including Eire and the UK, wouldn`t companies simply import goods into the lowest taxed area and then move goods across the non-existant borders? Of course they would!

And this applies to people too. Currently Irish citizens, the same as all EU citizens have free passage into the UK. So long as they can prove they have a passport or ID card they can move and work freely. That does not apply to US citizens, either in the UK or Eire or the EU.
After Brexit we in the UK may allow maybe more US workers in because of strong trade deals, and the EU will allow Chinese workers in? So, where do we put the borders? Where do we put the passport controls, and how do we count and check on cross border goods traffic?

It really isn`t some made up obstacle. It is a problem.

[franglais]

Carryfast:

Mike-C:

Carryfast:
There has never been ‘free movement of ‘people’ between UK and Eire’.

Eh ?

Free movement subject to CTA status and obviously as part of EU membership EU status,being established.

Not free movement of Americans ( or Mexicans ) or,hopefully,after Brexit,‘Europeans’ and all subject to their respective relevant status being determined on landing in the UK mainland.Not necessarily when crossing the Irish border.

So it appears you are happy to have NI in the same zone as Eire? A hard border between NI and “the mainland” but no border between NI and Eire?
A de facto reunification of Ireland?

[franglais]

Rjan:
I’m not sure that I get the sense that positions are becoming hardened - if anything, that which used to be solid is now melting into air! The general sense I get in society is that left-wing ideas are back in fashion. Brexiteers are fixated on Brexit, but that’s mainly because they’ve decided they’ve had enough of the status quo, but haven’t decided what sort of change they want.

I’m not even convinced that vested interests are reigning. Most of the country is in a mood for change. Half the country that voted for Brexit are hardly conservatives, voting as they did for the biggest political upset in a generation. The Tory party itself is captured by right-wing radicals, but unlike 1979 the substance of their agenda is totally out of kilter with the majority (like the Blairites did in Labour, they’re coasting on brand allegiance). And a good chunk of those that voted Remain are otherwise left-wingers who totally diverge from the Blairite orthodoxy.

I think that pre the Referendum there was a broad sweep of opinion on the Leave side. Now after May has banged on about “Brexit means Brexit” it seems a much harder exit than some wanted. Pre referendum there was talk of getting a better deal with the EU, that seems somewhat forlorn now doesn`t it? How can we get a better deal out of the club rather than in it? Everyone would leave if we got that.
Some may be changing opinions as they see the way the wind is blowing I suppose. Those who wanted a soft exit may decide to go with a harder one, or may now opt (if given a choice) to remain?
The May Gov is invested in NO customs union now, although it seemed that was an option earlier. They are painting themselves into a smaller corner every day that passes.

[carryfast]

Franglais:
Pre 1973, when the UK and Eire joined the then Common Market, the UK and Eire were in the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965. We were in a customs and free movement block.
UK and EIRE SAME zone

Now we are all including Eire and NI and the UK all in the EU customs and free movement zone.
UK and EIRE SAME zone

After Brexit we in the UK will be in a different zone than Eire.
UK and EIRE DIFFERENT zones.

The idea of Brexit is that we in the UK will get better trade deals outside the EU than inside it, isnt it? I have doubts about the likelihood but well ignore that and assume it`s so.

At the moment assume all the EU has a 20% tax on US imports and 10% tax on Chinese imports.
After Brexit assume we get a good trade deal with the US so agree to drop our import tax to 10%, and we can now trade less with China to we put a 20% tax on what we import from them.

If there is no border between the the EU including Eire and the UK, wouldn`t companies simply import goods into the lowest taxed area and then move goods across the non-existant borders? Of course they would!

And this applies to people too. Currently Irish citizens, the same as all EU citizens have free passage into the UK. So long as they can prove they have a passport or ID card they can move and work freely. That does not apply to US citizens, either in the UK or Eire or the EU.
After Brexit we in the UK may allow maybe more US workers in because of strong trade deals, and the EU will allow Chinese workers in? So, where do we put the borders? Where do we put the passport controls, and how do we count and check on cross border goods traffic?

It really isn`t some made up obstacle. It is a problem.

Firstly the relationship between UK and Eire stays the same in just the same way that the CTA still exists and trumps EU regulations.If not what would be the point of the CTA after 1973.While the relationship between the UK and the ‘rest’ of the EU is what changes.

As for the relevant border points.As I said tell us where does immigration and customs controls apply now assuming non EU/CTA people or goods destined for the UK mainland entering it via Shannon and Belfast for example - Cairnryan and Heathrow ?.Here’s a clue it isn’t at the Irish border.Which is why Cairnryan is subject to border staff control unlike the Lymington or Portsmouth etc Isle of Wight ferry terminals.

So no it isn’t a ‘problem’ it’s just a piece of made up bs being used as a straw to cling to by desperate remainers wanting to de rail Brexit.In addition to their EU allies like Tusk and Juncker.Who are trying to hold Ireland and it’s long standing relationship to the UK to ransom as part of that,because they know that their stinking EU Federal project,needs the continuation of Brit cash to keep it afloat and solvent.Not to mention as with all Federalists the fear of secession spreading.

[carryfast]

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Free movement subject to CTA status and obviously as part of EU membership EU status,being established.

Not free movement of Americans ( or Mexicans ) or,hopefully,after Brexit,‘Europeans’ and all subject to their respective relevant status being determined on landing in the UK mainland.Not necessarily when crossing the Irish border.

So it appears you are happy to have NI in the same zone as Eire? A hard border between NI and “the mainland” but no border between NI and Eire?
A de facto reunification of Ireland?

No exactly what we’ve got now in the form of border controls at Heathrow and Cairnryan for everyone and anything landing from Northern Ireland.In which Northern Irish citizens keep their UK status and Southern Irish keep their CTA status.So there we have it exactly what we’ve already got.The only thing that changes is the status of EU citizens and goods ( as opposed to Irish citizens and goods ) regardless whether they enter the country at Cairnryan or Heathrow or Dover.

[carryfast]

Franglais:
I think that pre the Referendum there was a broad sweep of opinion on the Leave side. Now after May has banged on about “Brexit means Brexit” it seems a much harder exit than some wanted.

The old worn out tactic of desperate remainers telling leavers what we voted for.We know what we voted for.That was stopping our cash going into the EU coffers,and an end to all EU ruling over the country including the rule of free movement and the ECJ.It was all made quite clear in the Leave manifesto.We won’t get that from so called ‘soft’ Brexit.If it wasn’t a vote for that then what would be the bleedin point of ‘Leaving’.

[winseer]

Carryfast:

Winseer:
I think that Brexiteers were united on wanting “Change” - ANY change - but are then divided again over what amounts to “Left” Brexit and “Right” Brexit.

Left Brexit is about jobs, benefits money - being spent at home, on the Brits - rather than spent on Brussel’s Bureaucrats’ rampant wastage.
Left Brexit either wants a quality job laid on, OR improved benefits.

You’ve totally missed the point that left can mean Nationalist or it can mean Socialist.The Socialists will tell you that only Socialism means left and Nationalism can only possibly mean right which is a total lie. I agree.

As you’ll have seen with Rjan’s position and Callaghan’s and Jenkins etc before him Socialists can’t possibly do anything which would put this country’s interests ahead of those of the anti Nation state EU Federalist collective’s.Because that’s what and who they are ideologically. What’s the difference between a Socialist who wants to do anything for the “many and not the few” - but only in Britain - and a Non-Socialist, who attempts to at least see some kind of bigger picture? We only joined the EEC in the first place, because Britain was on it’s kneeds in the 70’s after governments both left and right failed to address the leakage that winding-down workshop-of-the-world Britain was panning out in our economy as. Moving from a Manufacturing to a Service-based economy was, is, and continues to be the hardest “adjustment” that this country ever had to make since the war, economically.

While it’s only Nationalist Brexit which can deliver money spent ‘at home’ and Brit jobs for Brit workers if for no other reason Socialists don’t even recognise Britain as a sovereign state.They only recognise the interests of the collective and its leadership which has no National borders and in which their idea of democracy is the status quo of the European Commissioners and majority Federal vote having supremacy over the National vote and wishes of the seperate states as part of that. I’m actually somewhere in between. I’m all for “jobs for Britain” which means jobs for all those immigrants already here as well, of course. I’m not actually interested (as a Leave Voter, or Center-Rightist) in sending anyone home “just for being an immigrant”. I’m only interested in getting rid of those here with no job, attempting to undermine our society with their incompatible faith, no integration, no women, and no acceptance of British Home-grown ways. Let’s call a spade a spade here, and I’ll say that I’m Anti Islamic immigrant, and Pro Eastern European immigrant. For those fully EU immigrants - I never had any issues with them to start with, as the “free movement of people and Labour” was always pretty smooth IF you had that “job lined up”.

So vote Corbyn get Callaghan.Which means more Brit cash spent in Europe not at home and more jobs for EU workers in the form of our ongoing trade deficit and free movement of labour to over supply the labour market regarding what jobs we’ve got left.While Rjan’s lot will then say it doesn’t matter because they’ll align the wage structure across the EU.When even Corbyn has never once stated any intention of making such a move while Rjan has already blamed the 1970’s inflation catastrophe on British workers not being prepared to follow Callaghan’s policy of trying to fix price led inflation with wage cuts,while German workers laughed all the way to the bank. I’d have to say “Vote Corbyn, Get McCluskey, Vote May, Get Merkel, Vote Cable, Get Merkel” now.

Not to mention the ongoing question if Corbyn had the slightest intention of delivering Brexit then why wouldn’t he have chosen Hoey as shadow Brexit minister not remainer Starmer.IE don’t fall for the lie of Socialists pretending to be for Brexit all flying under the flag of convenience of supposed left Brexit.When what they really want is to hijack the process and then help those like May and Hammond to deliver remain in all but name if not reverse the whole thing.

I don’t think Corbyn chose Hoey, because Starmer chose Starmer. Hoey was being villified ahead of the 2017 election in her own constituency - and then confounded the “haters” by increasing her already massive majority there… To say she ■■■■■■ all over the Remainer activists that were trying to get actual Labour voters to ditch her - would be an understatement.

[winseer]

Franglais:

Winseer:
I think that Brexiteers were united on wanting “Change” - ANY change - but are then divided again over what amounts to “Left” Brexit and “Right” Brexit.

Absolutely correct there IMHO.
The referendum was a binary choice.

Remain:
Remain in a less than perfect system, that we had experience of and could clearly see all the hiccups and problems within it.

Leave:
Believe in a genuine difficult road to life outside the EU, that may lead to an improvement.
Believe two birds in the bushy wide world are better than one in the EU hand.
Believe the Common Wealth and rest of the world will automatically give us a better deal than we have in the EU.
Believe in a “left” Brexit.
Believe in a “right” Brexit.
Believe in 50 million quid for the NHS every day.
Believe in unicorns and fairies and all the politicians promises and sunny pastures new.

Yes. And you know what? - I think both sides Left and Right Brexit - can STILL say they are united, on seeing those objectives achievable.
If Corbyn isn’t careful, and comes up with “What would I do if there was a general election announced for a month’s time tomorrow” plan - then he’ll be kept out of power, simply because even the Left Brexiteers - won’t vote for him, but would support a toff like Rees Mogg who’s clearly a Hardline Brexiteer instead. “For the Many, not the Few” can be temporarily ignored when it’s “Never have so many been served by so few” to paraphase Churchill there.

Getting Brexit completed - gets our hands on that 50m per day, first and foremost. If Labour would like to spend every last penny of that on the NHS and make the NHS the biggest public sector monster akin to some kind of “Medical Empire” - then so be it. I can live with that, if that’s what they want.
Personally though, I would not give all that 50m per day to the NHS. Maybe half of it. The rest - I’d use to replace all the former EU subsidies that are currently keeping Remainers feet firmly planted in the clay. Win them over, and Brexit is a door we can safely padlock behind us, once we’ve passed that critical point of “ceasing the Brussels payments”.

“The Bird in the Hand” argument - is a good one too. I’m a gambler myself, and can easily hold the vision that less-gambling types - seemingly do not.

I sometimes wonder how “non risk takers” can get up in the morning.
“Oh no. Another day I’ve got to play it safe. Oh Crap! I’ll be dead in 50 years anyway! Oh Oh! What can I do by sitting on my arse, never sticking my neck out my whole life?”
Answer: “Be forgotten the day after your ashes get raked out of the Crematorium Retort, and that’s about it.”

[winseer]

Franglais:

Rjan:
I’m not sure that I get the sense that positions are becoming hardened - if anything, that which used to be solid is now melting into air! The general sense I get in society is that left-wing ideas are back in fashion. Brexiteers are fixated on Brexit, but that’s mainly because they’ve decided they’ve had enough of the status quo, but haven’t decided what sort of change they want.
The uniting force of Brexit, unseen by the pundits - is that this country wants it’s fully-funded public services back, first and foremost. The NHS must be there for everyone, or there’s no point in having it. We will never pay for it to be the service we want - IF we keep giving Brussels 9-figures per week AND not forcing those who’ve just got here - to pay NICs into the system that clearly only partially funds it as it stands. The only immigrants we want to stop - are those who won’t pay in, because they are not here to work - just get the benefits, vote Labour, and “waiting room block” that very same NHS. I’ve got nothing against Immigrants with a job. Never did have any issues there, even if that job was ‘working in the NHS’, ironically enough!

I’m not even convinced that vested interests are reigning. Most of the country is in a mood for change. Half the country that voted for Brexit are hardly conservatives, voting as they did for the biggest political upset in a generation. The Tory party itself is captured by right-wing radicals, but unlike 1979 the substance of their agenda is totally out of kilter with the majority (like the Blairites did in Labour, they’re coasting on brand allegiance). And a good chunk of those that voted Remain are otherwise left-wingers who totally diverge from the Blairite orthodoxy.

If we don’t get Brexit, then Labour start to mop up that “block for change” among voters everywhere. That might make some sense of Corbyn’s current “Sit on the fence as long as possible” stance. He’s never going to win power with his current front bench as it stands, but I reckon Corbyn is crafy enough that he could easily turn his entire front bench over, the day the next election date is announced!

I think that pre the Referendum there was a broad sweep of opinion on the Leave side. Now after May has banged on about “Brexit means Brexit” it seems a much harder exit than some wanted. Pre referendum there was talk of getting a better deal with the EU, that seems somewhat forlorn now doesn`t it? How can we get a better deal out of the club rather than in it? Everyone would leave if we got that.
Some may be changing opinions as they see the way the wind is blowing I suppose. Those who wanted a soft exit may decide to go with a harder one, or may now opt (if given a choice) to remain?
The May Gov is invested in NO customs union now, although it seemed that was an option earlier. They are painting themselves into a smaller corner every day that passes.

The time for “Reform” or “getting a good deal” was before the referendum was even held. Instead, we got “project fear” where foreign interests were actively encouraged to interefere in our own democractic vote to come. Complete Idiots, Complete Barstewards, and of course - completely derranged that the anti-EU, Pro-UK public services feeling uniting the 52% was ever going to get them over the line.

[rjan]

Winseer:
Right Brexit is about protecting jobs one already holds down, without the guts being driven out of one’s own business, due to excessive red tape, in particular the endless “Compliance” legislations.

I accept that may be your position, but that is not the position of the Tory right-wingers. They are not seeking to protect jobs, they are seeking to drive down pay and conditions in existing jobs, because that will force profits up.

The EU single market already consists of zero red tape - any change from it will introduce red tape. Nor are the Germans or the French going to allow their standards to be driven down - it’s not a red tape issue, it’s a question of democratic regulation of the economy. Even if we don’t have standards, they will still continue to have them, and they won’t let our product touch their markets unless our product complies with their internal standards.

If you don’t like it, then you don’t export to those countries (and that will mean anything but the “protection of jobs”). And in practice, because the EU has a set of common standards, it will mean not exporting anything to any of the EU members. It’s no different to how the Chinese can’t simply dump dangerous children’s toys or fire-risk electronics on the British market - we have standards, and they either comply with them or they don’t sell here.

Right Brexit is about getting away from EU judicial control - so we can have our own version of Law and Order based on Magna Carta back in our country, as per the wishes of most people.

But the Magna Carta contains no rights for ordinary people. I’ve addressed that before. Ordinary people’s democratic rights arose in the 20th century, not the 13th century when most people in the country were serfs subject to the dictatorship of their social superiors and the aristocracy. To go back to the Magna Carta will mean ordinary people being told what to do by those with inherited wealth and status.

This is why I say that it will be a good start if only Brexiteers clarify their own facts, narratives, and requirements from Brexit.

[rjan]

Carryfast:

Rjan:
[…]
When Brexiteers can settle on a coherent agenda, we will finally be moving along.

No surprise that Corbyn’s supporters showing their true colours.

I’ve never shown anything but my true colours!

We’ve already got the UK border in place on the UK mainland.

No we don’t. There are no customs checks between UK and NI (or indeed with any part of the EU, including Eire). And there never have been.

You do know it was the ‘Brexiteers’ as you call them that won the referendum not the remainers.The way you lot go on anyone would think that it it was remain which won it.Let alone desperately trying to infiltrate the Leave side and failing laughably because your Socialist ideology will always be for remain and handing your country over to the interests of the EU as part of that.Not the ideologically Nationalist idea of secession.

But I’ve declared my position, which is that I’m quite happy to go along with a Corbyn Brexit, I’m happy to see the Blairite Remainers get a bloody nose. But it’s not because I’m a nationalist - it’s because our democracy happens to be national, and it’s important that the national economy is subject to democracy.

While you know exactly what the Leave side want as laid out in the Leave manifesto and that is totally achievable outside of the EU’s rules.

There is no “leave manifesto”. Many of the referendum promises have either turned out to be truthless and completely misrepresentative, or have simply not materialised (like all these free-trade deals, especially ones that don’t involve Britain following any rules or requirements set by the other partner).

[winseer]

Rjan:

Winseer:
Right Brexit is about protecting jobs one already holds down, without the guts being driven out of one’s own business, due to excessive red tape, in particular the endless “Compliance” legislations.

I accept that may be your position, but that is not the position of the Tory right-wingers. They are not seeking to protect jobs, they are seeking to drive down pay and conditions in existing jobs, because that will force profits up.

The EU single market already consists of zero red tape - any change from it will introduce red tape. Nor are the Germans or the French going to allow their standards to be driven down - it’s not a red tape issue, it’s a question of democratic regulation of the economy. Even if we don’t have standards, they will still continue to have them, and they won’t let our product touch their markets unless our product complies with their internal standards.

If you don’t like it, then you don’t export to those countries (and that will mean anything but the “protection of jobs”). And in practice, because the EU has a set of common standards, it will mean not exporting anything to any of the EU members. It’s no different to how the Chinese can’t simply dump dangerous children’s toys or fire-risk electronics on the British market - we have standards, and they either comply with them or they don’t sell here.

Right Brexit is about getting away from EU judicial control - so we can have our own version of Law and Order based on Magna Carta back in our country, as per the wishes of most people.

But the Magna Carta contains no rights for ordinary people. I’ve addressed that before. Ordinary people’s democratic rights arose in the 20th century, not the 13th century when most people in the country were serfs subject to the dictatorship of their social superiors and the aristocracy. To go back to the Magna Carta will mean ordinary people being told what to do by those with inherited wealth and status.

This is why I say that it will be a good start if only Brexiteers clarify their own facts, narratives, and requirements from Brexit.

Taking back control of the money paid to Brussels. That means stop paying it. It hasn’t happened, when it could have been done the very weekend after the referendum.
Removing ourselves from EU judicial control, that doesn’t allow us to jail anyone except Right Wingers for “Free Speech” crimes, doesn’t allow us to quickly remove Hate speakers like Abu Hamza, and obliges us to take in the next lot of would-be terrorists, who seem to always get more rights than UK taxpayers do, - all without any say, checks, or balances - from the UK judiciary.
Immigration and free movement of Labour - I’m neutral on. Don’t care if we keep it. Don’t mind losing it.

Surely, your view of the Tories here - is the manufactured Left view of the Tories… Could I ask when the last time you voted Conservative was?

What’s “Conservative” about driving down wages, instead of maintaining a quality workforce? … Or What is “Conservative” about turning over any working, but old-fashioned way of doing things?

It’s not even “conservative” with the proverbial small ‘c’ - is it?

It’s Labour big business where “Everyone is equal, except us champagne socialists, that’ll always be more equal than you”.

What chance does a Labour Union Rep have of unseating McCluskey for example?

[rjan]

Carryfast:

Winseer:
[…]

As you’ll have seen with Rjan’s position and Callaghan’s and Jenkins etc before him Socialists can’t possibly do anything which would put this country’s interests ahead of those of the anti Nation state EU Federalist collective’s.Because that’s what and who they are ideologically.

You’re right, I’m not willing to put our interests unconditionally ahead of those of other EU nations. I’m willing to fight for a fair balance of interests.

While it’s only Nationalist Brexit which can deliver money spent ‘at home’ and Brit jobs for Brit workers if for no other reason Socialists don’t even recognise Britain as a sovereign state.

I do, though your problem is that you don’t recognise any other state as sovereign, or attempt to get to grips with what implications that has.

They only recognise the interests of the collective and its leadership which has no National borders and in which their idea of democracy is the status quo of the European Commissioners and majority Federal vote having supremacy over the National vote and wishes of the seperate states as part of that.

But I’m not in favour of the status quo! I’ve insisted that the EU needs to reform democratically! I’m content for us to leave the bloc until such a time. I also criticise it’s competition diktats, and the fact that it seeks to equalise it’s economies by throwing the burden onto the poorest workers.

So vote Corbyn get Callaghan.Which means more Brit cash spent in Europe not at home and more jobs for EU workers in the form of our ongoing trade deficit and free movement of labour to over supply the labour market regarding what jobs we’ve got left.

But I’ve criticised free movement. I’ve said it should end, that there should be no more free movement, and only those workers who are already settled should continue to remain here by default. The only time that temporary workers should be accepted is when it is certified that wages and conditions being offered have already increased above the national and local average, and there are training courses in place for settled workers running at full steam that cannot meet the demand.

While Rjan’s lot will then say it doesn’t matter because they’ll align the wage structure across the EU.When even Corbyn has never once stated any intention of making such a move

I have never suggested Corbyn intends to do such a thing either! I mooted that as a way in which free movement could work - I haven’t for one moment suggested that it’s going to happen.

Not to mention the ongoing question if Corbyn had the slightest intention of delivering Brexit then why wouldn’t he have chosen Hoey as shadow Brexit minister not remainer Starmer.IE don’t fall for the lie of Socialists pretending to be for Brexit all flying under the flag of convenience of supposed left Brexit.When what they really want is to hijack the process and then help those like May and Hammond to deliver remain in all but name if not reverse the whole thing.

[/quote]
Like I’ve said, I don’t think Hoey is a particularly good candidate for that position, because I haven’t heard anything out of her mouth that suggests she knows what she’s talking about. Although, if you see her as a trusted figure, I would point out that she both supports Corbyn and has not suggested that there is any underhand scheme by either Corbyn or Starmer to “hijack” Brexit.

[rjan]

Franglais:
If there is no border between the the EU including Eire and the UK, wouldn`t companies simply import goods into the lowest taxed area and then move goods across the non-existant borders? Of course they would!

And this applies to people too. Currently Irish citizens, the same as all EU citizens have free passage into the UK. So long as they can prove they have a passport or ID card they can move and work freely. That does not apply to US citizens, either in the UK or Eire or the EU.
After Brexit we in the UK may allow maybe more US workers in because of strong trade deals, and the EU will allow Chinese workers in? So, where do we put the borders? Where do we put the passport controls, and how do we count and check on cross border goods traffic?

It really isn`t some made up obstacle. It is a problem.

Playing devil’s advocate, we are not currently a member of the Schengen Area, and retain full control over non-EU immigration. I think for the EU, the bigger problem is the movement of goods and services, not the movement of people.

Although the EU might well say, they don’t want to be permanently obligated to have a system of red tape with employers checking passports - although we have such a system, I don’t know what the normal practice is in the rest of the EU.

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Carryfast:
No surprise that Corbyn’s supporters showing their true colours.

I’ve never shown anything but my true colours!

We’ve already got the UK border in place on the UK mainland.

No we don’t. There are no customs checks between UK and NI (or indeed with any part of the EU, including Eire). And there never have been.

You do know it was the ‘Brexiteers’ as you call them that won the referendum not the remainers.The way you lot go on anyone would think that it it was remain which won it.Let alone desperately trying to infiltrate the Leave side and failing laughably because your Socialist ideology will always be for remain and handing your country over to the interests of the EU as part of that.Not the ideologically Nationalist idea of secession.

But I’ve declared my position, which is that I’m quite happy to go along with a Corbyn Brexit, I’m happy to see the Blairite Remainers get a bloody nose. But it’s not because I’m a nationalist - it’s because our democracy happens to be national, and it’s important that the national economy is subject to democracy.

While you know exactly what the Leave side want as laid out in the Leave manifesto and that is totally achievable outside of the EU’s rules.

There is no “leave manifesto”. Many of the referendum promises have either turned out to be truthless and completely misrepresentative, or have simply not materialised (like all these free-trade deals, especially ones that don’t involve Britain following any rules or requirements set by the other partner).

No you want a remainer Starmer Brexit which means remain in all but name.The Leave manifesto can be nothing other than Leave which by definition means an end to our contributions and a complete end to EU rule here including the juristiction of the ECJ and an end to free movement.Which can only be delivered by so called hard Brexit.While whatever ‘rules’ are set regarding trade between nations none of them involve the type of Federal rule involved in membership of the EU nor the blackmail of handing over cash for the privilege.

The only untruths here are those which the remainers like you are desperately clinging to in the hope that you can reverse the referendum decision to Leave with you knowing full well that Leave means Leave.

As for no border between UK and EU have you ever actually driven through the UK ‘border’ at Dover from Calais which certainly does include customs checks just as it did before 1973.Or know what air side means at Heathrow.Which applies just the same regardless of where the ‘aircraft’ in question arrived from whether Belfast or bleedin Korea.Or for that matter why would Cairnryan ferry terminal have UK border staff on duty as opposed to Lymington.

[winseer]

Rjan:

Winseer:
Right Brexit is about protecting jobs one already holds down, without the guts being driven out of one’s own business, due to excessive red tape, in particular the endless “Compliance” legislations.

I accept that may be your position, but that is not the position of the Tory right-wingers. They are not seeking to protect jobs, they are seeking to drive down pay and conditions in existing jobs, because that will force profits up.

The EU single market already consists of zero red tape - any change from it will introduce red tape. Nor are the Germans or the French going to allow their standards to be driven down - it’s not a red tape issue, it’s a question of democratic regulation of the economy. Even if we don’t have standards, they will still continue to have them, and they won’t let our product touch their markets unless our product complies with their internal standards. The cost for this “Zero red tape” - is no change from what doesn’t work, doesn’t make a profit - ever." If you don’t have a profit left as a business from the status quo, minus the extra costs of “complying” with excessive EU regulations - then you just zombie on as a company, probably taken over by some venture capital firm, before eventually going under, at a time that’s considered least-damaging for the powers that be. The Single Market pushes up the cost of imports, and the EU pays us less for our exports than we could get outside the EU. The price for most UK exports to the EU has been fixed in advance in Sterling rather than Euros. This means if Sterling weakens, the EU gets to pay less for our stuff. I’m wondering when our Bank of England gets to spend it’s huge stash of Euros it’s been ordered to maintain as a “Reserve” - in addition to the so-called £9bn we have on Deposit at the ECB…
The EU is already politically unstable, thanks to too many people with too many problems who are only present to add to such problems, rather than help solve them. We’re better off OUT than in this total Byzantine mess - before the same thing happens to the EU as what happened to the original Byzantium.

If you don’t like it, then you don’t export to those countries (and that will mean anything but the “protection of jobs”). And in practice, because the EU has a set of common standards, it will mean not exporting anything to any of the EU members. It’s no different to how the Chinese can’t simply dump dangerous children’s toys or fire-risk electronics on the British market - we have standards, and they either comply with them or they don’t sell here.

Right Brexit is about getting away from EU judicial control - so we can have our own version of Law and Order based on Magna Carta back in our country, as per the wishes of most people.

But the Magna Carta contains no rights for ordinary people. I’ve addressed that before. Ordinary people’s democratic rights arose in the 20th century, not the 13th century when most people in the country were serfs subject to the dictatorship of their social superiors and the aristocracy. To go back to the Magna Carta will mean ordinary people being told what to do by those with inherited wealth and status. The Peasant’s Revolt could be considered the last time that actual UK-living citizens - tried to turn over their establishment. They duly got fobbed off, the ringleaders rounded up and executed, and “Rustics you were, Rustics you will Remain” being uttered by Kid-King Richard, making any student of History surely think “Once bitten, twice shy” when it comes to trusting their establishment to keep their word - until that word is fully implemented. Let’s not let Brexit turn into a similar kind of “failure” for the British People then.

This is why I say that it will be a good start if only Brexiteers clarify their own facts, narratives, and requirements from Brexit.

[rjan]

Winseer:
Getting Brexit completed - gets our hands on that 50m per day, first and foremost. If Labour would like to spend every last penny of that on the NHS and make the NHS the biggest public sector monster akin to some kind of “Medical Empire” - then so be it. I can live with that, if that’s what they want.

The reality is you’re not going to get your hands on an extra £50m per day. Stop pretending that it was anything but a right-wing lie.