If You Could Vote Again (Brexit)

Carryfast:

Rjan:
And whilst an NI-GB border is the natural place for a hard border, there would still have to be extra checks and bureaucracy compared to now, frustrating NI-GB trade, and nobody’s having that because it would mean the EU frontier being located inside the territory of the UK along what is already a political fracture point for unionists.

Why is it anymore of a ‘fracture point’ after Brexit than it is now when it would do exactly the same job of seperating UK/CTA entrants from non UK/CTA entrants both keeping their respective status just as before.Why ‘extra’ checks when there would be no more EU entrants wanting to enter via Northern Ireland than there are now.Are you really suggesting that EU to UK via Eire and NI would be anything other than likely to create suspicion from the point of landing in Rosslare or Shannon.

It wouldn’t be apparent that the person was going from EU to GB via Eire and NI, because there are no checks between Eire (where an EU citizen would be entitled to be) and NI, and there are (as far as I’m aware) no checks between GB and NI (because you don’t currently need a passport to travel between areas of the UK, same as you don’t need a passport to cross the border at Gretna Green).

That’s people, then there are goods. There are currently no checks on goods movements by ferry between GB and NI - there don’t currently need to be, because it’s been part of the UK for centuries and part of the EU (and it’s predecessor institutions) now for decades, and there is thus nothing to be checked.

Franglais:
We, including NI, would be in a separate trading zone to Eire for the first time since 1965. And would need to have restrictions on people’s movement for first time since 1923!
And yes after Brexit goods or people using that route would be suspicious hence the need for border posts.

I’m not entirely familiar with the history but I suspect it may be the first restrictions on people’s movement from Eire since time immemorial, if not ever. The checkpoints in NI were only implemented for the first time during the Troubles, and that was to catch ‘criminals’ and disrupt the IRA’s campaign, stem the flow of weapons and so on, not to enforce any sort of immigration policy.

Rjan:

Franglais:
We, including NI, would be in a separate trading zone to Eire for the first time since 1965. And would need to have restrictions on people’s movement for first time since 1923!
And yes after Brexit goods or people using that route would be suspicious hence the need for border posts.

I’m not entirely familiar with the history but I suspect it may be the first restrictions on people’s movement from Eire since time immemorial, if not ever. The checkpoints in NI were only implemented for the first time during the Troubles, and that was to catch ‘criminals’ and disrupt the IRA’s campaign, stem the flow of weapons and so on, not to enforce any sort of immigration policy.

I certainly don’t remember 1923! [emoji3] Honest.
Even pre 1965 Eire’s economy was closely tied to the UK. It was nothing like the economy it now is. Pre 65 Eire was very much in the shadow of the UK. It isn’t today and they certainly don’t want to be dragged back by our choices.
And as you say it’s not just the economics. With Barnier and the EU Circus coming to town the DUP are getting excited again.
We live in interesting times.

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Rjan:
But Benn was a socialist - he made no secret of the fact. So was Labour itself, until Blair gained power.

Well I’m not “all for” Remain, but I’ve said myself that Starmer is a Remainer and that he’s probably closer to the Blairites. At the very least, he doesn’t (so far) strike me as the sort of person with the ballast and conviction of a left-winger, but as someone who is merely sympathetic, and will do alright in Labour so long as he is sat on the bus sandwiched between two heavyweights (which in this case represents McDonnell and, somewhat incongruously for a metaphor involving physical menace, Corbyn).

There’s nothing inconsistent because I’m not arguing that Starmer is a Brexit rottweiler. On the contrary, it is precisely his moderation and measure that makes him suitable for his role, of keeping the Labour party in one piece whilst the pneumatic drill (of logic and electoral arithmetic) is applied to the Blairite ■■■■■■■■■. And if he is called to go to the EU to negotiate, he’s going to have a grip on his brief and have his ducks in a row, without either making a fool of himself on the international stage, nor going in as a vandal to bear his @rse on behalf of Britain one last time before we disappear behind the planks of the drawbridge.

But nobody in the Labour party is seeking “ideologically nationalist ideas of secession”. Labour is simply reclaiming the tools to exert more democratic control of our economy. Moving away from a system of free markets in which people have one vote per pound in their bank accounts, where the minority of rich have more votes that the entire working class, back toward a system of democracy in which people have one vote per head at the ballot box.

So an end to one-pound-one-vote, a return to one-head-one-vote: taking back control for working people.

I don’t see how we could do better ourselves because it is the British who wrote the human rights laws.

Firstly Benn,like Heffer and Shore and even myself for a time,was a Nationalist who ‘thought’ he was a Socialist.IE Socialism is by definition ideologically opposed to the idea of the Nation State no ifs no buts and that’s what we’re arguing about here in the difference between Shore’s ( Hoey’s ) type of Brexit v yours and Starmer’s.As you’ve said you aren’t prepared to go along with the Nationalist idea of Secession.Which by definition means that,unlike Benn and Hoey,you ( Starmer and Corbyn ) aren’t prepared to ‘Leave’ the EU in any meaningful way whatsoever that would make us an independent sovereign ‘nation’ again.In just the same way that Callaghan rightly argued for remain.What you’re arguing for is a repositioning of our status ‘within’ the EU that would selectively allow you to opt out of EU free markets economic policy only and you and I know you ain’t going to get it.While you don’t even believe in that yourself because at the end of the day you’ve defended free markets in the form of opposition to protectionism.Because again that is actually a Nationalist idea not a Socialist one and which can only be delivered within the protection of Nation State borders.Which is the difference between Benn’s/Hoey’s position v yours and Starmer’s and you know it.

As for one person one vote.What you really mean is the pooling of Socialist votes across the EU to rig ‘democracy’ in favour of Socialism by keeping us tied to the EU Federal government system.Which actually just means gerrymandering and imposition of a foreign vote across national borders in the form of EU QMV not democracy at all.Which is the main reason why we’ve voted to ‘Leave’,which by definition means secede from,the EU

If the Brits wrote the human rights laws then you’ll obviously have no problem with us implementing them and amending them without any further EU interference or involvement whatsoever.Also why is it called the European Human Rights Act not the British human rights act.

Rjan:

Carryfast:
Why is it anymore of a ‘fracture point’ after Brexit than it is now when it would do exactly the same job of seperating UK/CTA entrants from non UK/CTA entrants both keeping their respective status just as before.Why ‘extra’ checks when there would be no more EU entrants wanting to enter via Northern Ireland than there are now.Are you really suggesting that EU to UK via Eire and NI would be anything other than likely to create suspicion from the point of landing in Rosslare or Shannon.

It wouldn’t be apparent that the person was going from EU to GB via Eire and NI, because there are no checks between Eire (where an EU citizen would be entitled to be) and NI, and there are (as far as I’m aware) no checks between GB and NI (because you don’t currently need a passport to travel between areas of the UK, same as you don’t need a passport to cross the border at Gretna Green).

That’s people, then there are goods. There are currently no checks on goods movements by ferry between GB and NI - there don’t currently need to be, because it’s been part of the UK for centuries and part of the EU (and it’s predecessor institutions) now for decades, and there is thus nothing to be checked.

As I said in that case how do you deal with the hypothetical traveller or goods from the US or Mexico landing at Shannon or non EU citizens/goods landing at Rosslare and then travelling onward to the UK via NI as it stands at present ?.So they enter Eire at Shannon or Rosslare and are allowed through customs where they are then just as entitled to be at that point,then what ?.Don’t you think that the first question they’ll be asked when entering Eire is what is the purpose of their journey/status of the freight with the answer onward travel/shipment to UK via NI ?.

On that note you did see the news article related to the issue of more border staff needed to meet an already growing issue of non EU/CTA immigration issues at Cairnryan all that under current regulations ?.No border checks at Cairnryan absolute bs. :unamused:

Rjan:

Franglais:
We, including NI, would be in a separate trading zone to Eire for the first time since 1965. And would need to have restrictions on people’s movement for first time since 1923!
And yes after Brexit goods or people using that route would be suspicious hence the need for border posts.

I’m not entirely familiar with the history but I suspect it may be the first restrictions on people’s movement from Eire since time immemorial, if not ever. The checkpoints in NI were only implemented for the first time during the Troubles, and that was to catch ‘criminals’ and disrupt the IRA’s campaign, stem the flow of weapons and so on, not to enforce any sort of immigration policy.

It would actually be the continuation of the long established restrictions on travel of non CTA status movement between Ireland and UK.Just added to now by EU status.As for your bs no supposed borders and Luxembourg cigs and diesel excuse.What stops someone importing a load of US car parts through Shannon airport.Then collecting them with a van and driving them back to here via Cairnryan supposedly evading customs duties on the freight by your logic ?.Now awaits another excuse that car parts have now been added to the list of specially controlled stuff subject to the customs flying squads and still no border facilities at Cairnryan. :unamused:

Carryfast:
No border checks at Cairnryan absolute bs. :unamused:

Edit to add.

assets.publishing.service.gov.u … A_2011.pdf

Eire have had a property crash, which the UK seems to have side-stepped.
Now we see business rents at sky-high levels, which is proving a more systemic danger to small to medium sized retailers in particular - than the threat of a firm’s creditors pulling the plug at short notice.

I wonder what our government is most afraid of?

There are no Border checks at Cairnryan because there’s no border there. What is legal in NI is legal on the mainland.
Are Border Force and Immigration Officers there doing checks? Yes, agreed.
It’s a convenient point to do internal document checks. The same sort of checks which Border Force sometimes do with workers at car washes or takeaway food places.
But the main point to remember is that the same rules apply in NI as in the UK as a whole.
Looking first at an EU citizen landing at Rosslare. They have every right to be there, and seek work. EU freedom of movement applies, although being outside of Schengen passports are examined. After Brexit no change. Eire / EU stay in same relationship.
Currently similar to the EU citizen arriving in Dover, free movement on providing a passport.
After Brexit this could change. Maybe no entry allowed?
Currently we have the CTA agreement. No movement restrictions between Eire and NI etc. After Brexit the UK Gov says this will continue: no restrictions on movement of Irish and UK citizens between Eire and NI. But goods will be different. And EU citizens status will be different too.
EU citizens legally in Eire may not be legally allowed to cross into NI. Because of the nature of the border it won’t be physically possible to check them so they could wander across easily.
So yes there will most likely be increased checks between NI and mainland UK.
Looking at goods. Post Brexit assuming no Customs Union goods in Eire will not be in free circulation in the UK. That’s what it’s all about isn’t it. But look at Eire UK border! No one has yet found any practical way of monitoring what is happening there. Some have muttering about Automatic Number Plate Recognition etc and Electronic Customs Documents but nothing realistic yet. Some waving of arms and shouting “technology solutions” won’t cut it.
Building and manning a wall etc, apart from swallowing the fictitious 350million, is already ruled out by all sides. So we end where NI is regards goods and immigration effectively part of Eire. That won’t be acceptable to the DUP who support the May Government or to many other NI and UK mainland citizens.
NI citizens who can travel without hindrance to Dublin but who pass controls to reach London are Effectively citizens of where really?

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Carryfast:
Firstly Benn,like Heffer and Shore and even myself for a time,was a Nationalist who ‘thought’ he was a Socialist.IE Socialism is by definition ideologically opposed to the idea of the Nation State no ifs no buts and that’s what we’re arguing about here in the difference between Shore’s ( Hoey’s ) type of Brexit v yours and Starmer’s.As you’ve said you aren’t prepared to go along with the Nationalist idea of Secession.Which by definition means that,unlike Benn and Hoey,you ( Starmer and Corbyn ) aren’t prepared to ‘Leave’ the EU in any meaningful way whatsoever that would make us an independent sovereign ‘nation’ again.In just the same way that Callaghan rightly argued for remain.What you’re arguing for is a repositioning of our status ‘within’ the EU that would selectively allow you to opt out of EU free markets economic policy only and you and I know you ain’t going to get it.

I agree with you in that I don’t think the EU will allow us to “selectively opt-out”, so all we can do is throw our membership card back in and opt-out of the entire thing, and basically do whatever bespoke mutual deal can be done with the EU that doesn’t involve subscribing to their free market economic policy.

The difference between the Tories agenda is, Corbyn’s agenda has mass support from workers in other European countries, who are also tired of free market economic policy, and if the EU makes the whole dispute about enforcing free market economic policy on the UK, it will cause it’s own political collapse. Whereas it does not face the same prospect of collapse when it seeks to protect it’s remaining members from Tory undercutting.

While you don’t even believe in that yourself because at the end of the day you’ve defended free markets in the form of opposition to protectionism.Because again that is actually a Nationalist idea not a Socialist one and which can only be delivered within the protection of Nation State borders.Which is the difference between Benn’s/Hoey’s position v yours and Starmer’s and you know it.

I haven’t opposed protectionism. I’ve opposed beggar-thy-neighbour and chauvinism. For me, the thing that workers need to be protected against is markets and low-road competition. For you, the threat is apparently the mere existence of the German worker and German industry. You harp on all the time about the apparent trade imbalance with Germany - the answer to that is simple, British bosses will have to behave better like German bosses, they will have to raise productivity and invest in skills and machinery.

As for one person one vote.What you really mean is the pooling of Socialist votes across the EU to rig ‘democracy’ in favour of Socialism by keeping us tied to the EU Federal government system.Which actually just means gerrymandering and imposition of a foreign vote across national borders in the form of EU QMV not democracy at all.Which is the main reason why we’ve voted to ‘Leave’,which by definition means secede from,the EU

:unamused:

If the Brits wrote the human rights laws then you’ll obviously have no problem with us implementing them and amending them without any further EU interference or involvement whatsoever.Also why is it called the European Human Rights Act not the British human rights act.

I don’t have a problem with us amending them, if there is an amendment I support. But for now, I’m quite happy to subscribe to the common standard. And in practice, there is nothing to stop Britain unilaterally enlarging the scope of human rights within British borders - it already has the power to provide the basic rights plus any supplementary ones that we determine. Of course, if there is an amendment you want to make and that must involve leaving the common standard, then let me hear it and I’ll decide whether to support it.

Franglais:
But goods will be different. And EU citizens status will be different too.
EU citizens legally in Eire may not be legally allowed to cross into NI. Because of the nature of the border it won’t be physically possible to check them so they could wander across easily.
So yes there will most likely be increased checks between NI and mainland UK.
Looking at goods. Post Brexit assuming no Customs Union goods in Eire will not be in free circulation in the UK. That’s what it’s all about isn’t it. But look at Eire UK border! No one has yet found any practical way of monitoring what is happening there. Some have muttering about Automatic Number Plate Recognition etc and Electronic Customs Documents but nothing realistic yet. Some waving of arms and shouting “technology solutions” won’t cut it.
Building and manning a wall etc, apart from swallowing the fictitious 350million, is already ruled out by all sides. So we end where NI is regards goods and immigration effectively part of Eire. That won’t be acceptable to the DUP who support the May Government or to many other NI and UK mainland citizens.
NI citizens who can travel without hindrance to Dublin but who pass controls to reach London are Effectively citizens of where really?

I imagine the real issue at stake for the EU (and it’s members, especially Eire) with goods is to ensure that it can impose tariffs on Tory undercutting, and for that the customs infrastructure must be in place (even if, under the status quo, it would not be necessary).

For example, if the Tories abolished minimum paid holiday rights for workers (especially at the margins, like abolishing it for agency workers and the sham “self-employed” who are otherwise deemed by EU law to be workers even though they are not considered employees by British employment law), then the EU would likely impose a small tariff on all goods and services in order to disgorge the benefit, so that the British gain no competitive advantage from doing so in terms of exporting into other EU member states.

Since there is currently no border between NI and Eire, and neither Eire nor the Ulster nationalists are going to tolerate one, Eire cannot allow NI to be in a radically different regulatory environment than itself.

It’s proven to be a beautiful spanner in the works for right-wing Brexit, because the only other alternative is for them to slough off NI from the UK and basically reunify the island of Ireland. For the right-wing loons, that would be fine in principle, because it would mean an end to massive UK public subsidy of NI.

But obviously, it would pose a grave ideological contradiction for the Tories as a whole (officially, the Conservative and Unionist Party), it would cause outright rebellion of too many of its MPs and peers, and of course the DUP who are the minor partner in the current government are not having it, so the electoral arithmetic just doesn’t add up for that option. And it would also cause more ructions down the line with Scottish or even Welsh nationalism. Again, no problem I’d think for the right-wing loons, because they’d be happy to fracture the UK state and its united democracy into competing regions - to Balkanise it, effectively.

Carryfast tends to express some support for this sort of thinking, as for example when he argues that sovereign democracy should return to the constituency level in the UK (albeit he is motivated by some sort of confused ideology, not the material advantages he would gain as a wealthy person who is enabled to create political competition and play workers off against one another).

But there are just too many people who are not having it if it raises these spectres.

Rjan:

Franglais:
But goods will be different. And EU citizens status will be different too.
EU citizens legally in Eire may not be legally allowed to cross into NI. Because of the nature of the border it won’t be physically possible to check them so they could wander across easily.
So yes there will most likely be increased checks between NI and mainland UK.
Looking at goods. Post Brexit assuming no Customs Union goods in Eire will not be in free circulation in the UK. That’s what it’s all about isn’t it. But look at Eire UK border! No one has yet found any practical way of monitoring what is happening there. Some have muttering about Automatic Number Plate Recognition etc and Electronic Customs Documents but nothing realistic yet. Some waving of arms and shouting “technology solutions” won’t cut it.
Building and manning a wall etc, apart from swallowing the fictitious 350million, is already ruled out by all sides. So we end where NI is regards goods and immigration effectively part of Eire. That won’t be acceptable to the DUP who support the May Government or to many other NI and UK mainland citizens.
NI citizens who can travel without hindrance to Dublin but who pass controls to reach London are Effectively citizens of where really?

I imagine the real issue at stake for the EU (and it’s members, especially Eire) with goods is to ensure that it can impose tariffs on Tory undercutting, and for that the customs infrastructure must be in place (even if, under the status quo, it would not be necessary).

For example, if the Tories abolished minimum paid holiday rights for workers (especially at the margins, like abolishing it for agency workers and the sham “self-employed” who are otherwise deemed by EU law to be workers even though they are not considered employees by British employment law), then the EU would likely impose a small tariff on all goods and services in order to disgorge the benefit, so that the British gain no competitive advantage from doing so in terms of exporting into other EU member states.

Since there is currently no border between NI and Eire, and neither Eire nor the Ulster nationalists are going to tolerate one, Eire cannot allow NI to be in a radically different regulatory environment than itself.

It’s proven to be a beautiful spanner in the works for right-wing Brexit, because the only other alternative is for them to slough off NI from the UK and basically reunify the island of Ireland. For the right-wing loons, that would be fine in principle, because it would mean an end to massive UK public subsidy of NI.

But obviously, it would pose a grave ideological contradiction for the Tories as a whole (officially, the Conservative and Unionist Party), it would cause outright rebellion of too many of its MPs and peers, and of course the DUP who are the minor partner in the current government are not having it, so the electoral arithmetic just doesn’t add up for that option. And it would also cause more ructions down the line with Scottish or even Welsh nationalism. Again, no problem I’d think for the right-wing loons, because they’d be happy to fracture the UK state and its united democracy into competing regions - to Balkanise it, effectively.

Carryfast tends to express some support for this sort of thinking, as for example when he argues that sovereign democracy should return to the constituency level in the UK (albeit he is motivated by some sort of confused ideology, not the material advantages he would gain as a wealthy person who is enabled to create political competition and play workers off against one another).

But there are just too many people who are not having it if it raises these spectres.

A continuation of a free Eire/NI border can’t really work for either side post Brexit. So long as NI is part of the UK how can it work?
You can I think even express it in a logical/mathematical model.
UK=NI
NI=Eire
Eire=EU
Therefore UK=EU
And we know that uf the UK is the same as EU then there is no effective Brexit.
So one of those equal signs needs a bar struck through it, so we need a border somewhere.
I’m not into the party politics of the situation, but consider this also, if NI, (ignoring the DUP etc for a minute) becomes a special case, becomes closer to the EU than the rest of the UK, how would that look in Edinburgh?
The Scots would be looking at Independence again wouldn’t they? Especially if the first years of Brexit are tough.

Import of goods from outside countries?
Assume post Brexit we cut a good deal with the US and buy in cheap beef? It arrives in England. To NI it’s in free circulation as it’s within the UK. Free crossing into Eire? Impractical and politically difficult to have a physical frontier there. Free crossing from Rosslare to Cherbourg as it’s all within the EU. By the time it arrives in Rungis the paperwork will have Texas crossed out and Tipperary pencilled in but you’ll get the idea.
It is possible to control all of this but that does not make it a non issue.
More infrastructure, time, documentation, manpower, which all cost money are required to control it all.
Going the opposite way maybe want parts for our BMWs ? With a 20% tax on car bits to protect Jaguar what happens? The truck tipped at Paris now has a handy reload home!
Every time there is a price difference someone will try to evade the taxes, so it will always be necessary to increase policing of the rules.
Bigger tax difference means more motivation to break the rules so more (expensive) checks and controls are necessary.

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Franglais:
There are no Border checks at Cairnryan because there’s no border there.

Did you actually read this.

You know bits like ‘’ enforcement staff from Glasgow are responsible for managing the risks that exist at the ports of Stranraer and Cairnryan.‘’

‘‘Immigration Group is responsible for journeys between Northern Ireland and Great Britain’’.

‘‘Despite the 1972 order defining that travellers should not normally be subject of controls when travelling within the CTA ,Paragraph 2/1 of schedule 2 to the immigration act of 1971 provides powers for the UK border agency to question people arriving in the UK to ascertain their immigration status’’.

‘‘The above section of the legislation applies to people who have arrived from outside the United Kingdom .For journeys between Northern Ireland and Great Britain the journey is from another port within the United Kingdom.These domestic journeys are known as in country movements’’.

''The ‘control of movements’ within CTA are managed in two ways as mentioned earlier : international journeys from the Republic of Ireland and in country journeys that provide onward transit routes to other parts of the CTA.Examples of these are as follows.

international journey - flight from Dublin to London or ferry from Dun Laoghaire to Holyhead

in country journey - flight from Belfast City airport to Manchester or ferry from Belfast to Stranraer.

All of those examples obviously subject to border controls.Obviously also including the example of the US car parts imported to UK mainland via Shannon and Cairnryan.

Desperate lying remainers who’ll do say anything to keep their Federal dream alive and who still won’t give up with their stinking lies when the facts are put in front of them. :unamused:

assets.publishing.service.gov.u … A_2011.pdf

Rjan:
Since there is currently no border between NI and Eire, and neither Eire nor the Ulster nationalists are going to tolerate one, Eire cannot allow NI to be in a radically different regulatory environment than itself.

There is a border between Eire and NI and you know it.You also know that no where do we have/need walls and machine gun armed watchtowers enforcing customs requirements as part of that.In just the same way as the example I gave regarding everything from cigs from Luxembourg to American car parts can’t be transported across the CTA borders without customs control whether we’re within or outside the EU.Although it’s ironic that lying remainers try to pretend that it’s all supposedly about protecting workers when we’ve got EU markets flooded with cheap Chinese crap but massive controls and quotas on US imports.Make no mistake your ideas are all about what you think is best for zb Socialism not British or Western workers. :unamused:

Yes CF, I did read that link. And you will note that in the parts you quoted, they refer to Border Force checking on “in country movements”. That is domestic, not cross border, movements. There is no border at Cairnryan although we can agree checks are carried out there. Yes, agreed Border Force operate there.
I agree with you there is a border between NI and Eire. Difficult to see it but agree that it is there. Agree there are currently no checks, border posts, fences etc. And agree there is currently no need for any of the above.
But after Brexit when the UK and Eire are likely to be in different trading and customs zones then what?
Look at your US car parts.
Let’s say we in the UK knock all quotas and taxes off of them? Once they leave the UK port of entry they are in free circulation. We can put them in any warehouse anywhere in the UK without further customs involvement.
The EU won’t copy will they. But without a properly controlled border how can they stop them going UK>NI>Eire>EU?
You’re not bothered about that?
Works the other way around too. If we in the UK ban all Chinese imports but the EU doesn’t? Possible scenario? Container of Chinese car parts cleared in Rotterdam? Free movement throughout the EU including Eire. Around the circuit and into the UK. Cheap Chinese imports in London. Bothered now? Where do YOU put the border? You have a choice of either the fields of Armagh or port of Cairnryan?
First option has been discounted by the present gov, is at least very expensive or maybe practically impossible due to both the geography and the politics. And second option is to allow smuggled goods free passage in NI! And then have a stronger Internal control mechanisn within the UK. Is that acceptable to our citizens?
I’d think neither of those options would fly.
Neither of course would Eire accept any sort of extra border controls between it and it’s partner the EU. It’s not their problem after all.

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Franglais:
Yes CF, I did read that link. And you will note that in the parts you quoted, they refer to Border Force checking on “in country movements”. That is domestic, not cross border, movements. There is no border at Cairnryan although we can agree checks are carried out there. Yes, agreed Border Force operate there.
I agree with you there is a border between NI and Eire. Difficult to see it but agree that it is there. Agree there are currently no checks, border posts, fences etc. And agree there is currently no need for any of the above.
But after Brexit when the UK and Eire are likely to be in different trading and customs zones then what?
Look at your US car parts.
Let’s say we in the UK knock all quotas and taxes off of them? Once they leave the UK port of entry they are in free circulation. We can put them in any warehouse anywhere in the UK without further customs involvement.
The EU won’t copy will they. But without a properly controlled border how can they stop them going UK>NI>Eire>EU?
You’re not bothered about that?
Works the other way around too. If we in the UK ban all Chinese imports but the EU doesn’t? Possible scenario? Container of Chinese car parts cleared in Rotterdam? Free movement throughout the EU including Eire. Around the circuit and into the UK. Cheap Chinese imports in London. Bothered now? Where do YOU put the border? You have a choice of either the fields of Armagh or port of Cairnryan?
First option has been discounted by the present gov, is at least very expensive or maybe practically impossible due to both the geography and the politics. And second option is to allow smuggled goods free passage in NI! And then have a stronger Internal control mechanisn within the UK. Is that acceptable to our citizens?
I’d think neither of those options would fly.
Neither of course would Eire accept any sort of extra border controls between it and it’s partner the EU. It’s not their problem after all.

If you’ve already got ‘border agency’ immigration ‘controls’ at Cairnryan then by definition you’ve already got a ‘border’.Which is why we have no border ‘controls’ at the Isle of Wight ferry terminals but we do have them at Cairnryan.

In just the same way that we have them at Portsmouth and Southampton and Dover.On that note nothing changes after Brexit in that the border ‘control’ ‘methods’ stay the same we won’t be putting up a wall with machine gun towers all around the UK.As for the US car parts as I said how are they controlled now whether imported via Southampton or Heathrow and then taken to Eire via Larne or imported to the UK via Shannon and Cairnryan ?.In which case again nothing changes they’ll still be subject to exactly the same customs control ‘methods’ as apply now.No need for any bs remainer wall and watch towers.

It’s obvious that the remainers are deliberately confusing the change in the status of ‘goods’ and ‘people’ crossing the relevant borders,with the status of the borders.When it’s clearly only the ‘status’ of ‘people’ and ‘freight’ crossing them and not any change in the status of the very real and existing ‘borders’.

Carryfast:

Franglais:
There are no Border checks at Cairnryan because there’s no border there.

Did you actually read this.

You know bits like ‘’ enforcement staff from Glasgow are responsible for managing the risks that exist at the ports of Stranraer and Cairnryan.‘’[…]

To be honest Carryfast I struggled to understand how it supported your point.

We all accept that enforcement staff haunt the ports. But neither people nor goods are systematically checked. You cannot be denied entry simply because you don’t have a passport, for example. An immigration officer can ask you questions, but the burden is on him to prove that something is out of order, not for you to show that things are in order.

So too, a customs officer can dip your tanks or open your doors looking for drugs or contraband, but you don’t have to have any documentation. You don’t even need to know what you are carrying.

And whilst obviously an X-ray machine or dogs can monitor for drugs, tobacco, alcohol, firearms, and so on - limited classes of specific product that are either totally illegal or whose illegitimacy is extremely difficult to conceal - a dog cannot sniff out that a load moving from the mainland to NI is actually destined illegitimately for the Eire market. And because no customs records are being kept, customs officers cannot detect suspiciously high flows either, because they don’t know what volumes are flowing, and any individual random stop will just show that the load is, quite credibly, destined for the NI market. And the potential risks are not limited to a specific class of product.

And if you start having flying squads of immigration and customs officers who are turning out everyone’s pockets and rummaging through lorry-loads of goods at random all over NI, then obviously legitimate businesses will start to face unexpected delays, disruptions, and the costs of cooperating with investigations, the state has to pay for all these flying squads. Moreover, Eire may not trust the British government to make appropriate investments and perform proper enforcement.

Just take “chlorinated chicken”, for example. If we did a free-trade deal with the US, then this would be legitimate in GB and NI, but not in Eire. So what if you have a meat processing operation in NI? The obvious implication is that you now have to have two separate production lines for things that could previously be done with one. Or, if you don’t, you’re going to have customs officers swooping in all the time trying to establish that you’re keeping the meat for each market separate. And once meat has gone into a product, how really are customs officers expected to verify? The horsemeat scandal shows just how lax things currently are. That’s just one product, and of course you need inspectors who understand what they’re dealing with and are trained experienced with the fiddles that are typical of a certain kind of product - an customs inspector who knows all about meat, may well know nothing about circuit boards, and you can’t be an expert in everything and be constantly on top of every criminal innovation. That’s why it’s a smugglers charter.

Bear in mind also, the main issue is not goods flows from NI or Eire to GB. It is goods flows from GB to Eire - flows of goods into the EU area, not out of it.

The “border in the Irish Sea” is the corrolary of “special status” for NI, in which NI will continue to be tied to all EU standards, NI and Eire will continue to trade freely and be inside a common customs area, and effectively the EU will have a border force at Belfast, and businesses in NI that trade with the mainland will have to implement customs procedures when they trade with the rest of the UK (of which they are nominally part!).

The best solutions to all this - would be the simplest ones. “Turn the clock back” if no one can come up with a better idea.
Whatever solution might eventually dawn on our useless politicians - it’ll still be ■■■■■■■ millions of people off, either way.

Best then, we put back the original ■■■■-off then.

Bring back the Hard Border, and if need be - tear up the Good Friday Agreement.

If we cannot move forward to leave the EU, then let us at least slam into reverse - and back out. :bulb:

At present, the Lords have now told May we cannot leave the EU with “No Deal” which means all the EU have to do to scupper Brexit - is never offer us a deal. :imp: :angry:

Winseer:
The best solutions to all this - would be the simplest ones. “Turn the clock back” if no one can come up with a better idea.
Whatever solution might eventually dawn on our useless politicians - it’ll still be ■■■■■■■ millions of people off, either way.

Best then, we put back the original ■■■■-off then.

Bring back the Hard Border, and if need be - tear up the Good Friday Agreement.

If we cannot move forward to leave the EU, then let us at least slam into reverse - and back out. :bulb:

At present, the Lords have now told May we cannot leave the EU with “No Deal” which means all the EU have to do to scupper Brexit - is never offer us a deal. :imp: :angry:

But where’s your democratic mandate for tearing up the Good Friday Agreement and going back to war? And don’t bother to argue that the British people voted for that in the referendum - the people of NI certainly didn’t. The implication of the referendum result is just as consistent with ceding “special status” and having a border in the Irish Sea, but in truth people simply hadn’t considered the issue beforehand.

Rjan:

Winseer:
The best solutions to all this - would be the simplest ones. “Turn the clock back” if no one can come up with a better idea.
Whatever solution might eventually dawn on our useless politicians - it’ll still be ■■■■■■■ millions of people off, either way.

Best then, we put back the original ■■■■-off then.

Bring back the Hard Border, and if need be - tear up the Good Friday Agreement.

If we cannot move forward to leave the EU, then let us at least slam into reverse - and back out. :bulb:

At present, the Lords have now told May we cannot leave the EU with “No Deal” which means all the EU have to do to scupper Brexit - is never offer us a deal. :imp: :angry:

But where’s your democratic mandate for tearing up the Good Friday Agreement and going back to war? And don’t bother to argue that the British people voted for that in the referendum - the people of NI certainly didn’t. The implication of the referendum result is just as consistent with ceding “special status” and having a border in the Irish Sea, but in truth people simply hadn’t considered the issue beforehand.

Can we stop the patronising about the Good Friday Agreement, this idea that without we would return to the killing of the 70’s is just scaremongering BS. Yes there are still people in NI who want violence no matter what deal is put on any table unless it is for a united Ireland, but they are now very much in the minority have no support from any of the major political parties and are roundly condemned by all sides when they commit an act of violence.
The economic situation in NI has changed massively and people are now used to peace I have yet to meet anyone who wants a return to violence or thinks it would be a good idea.
I appreciate that solving the border issue is going to be difficult not helped by the change in attitude from the Republic since Varadkar took over but he has his own problems and Brexit is a good way of diverting attention from them