If This Ain't a Positive Fit I Don't Know What Is

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Rjan:

Ziltoid:

DickyNick:
The only thing that’s a ■■■■ take here isn’t the police or DVSA it’s the driver and clearly some of you on here who think it’s acceptable to run around with that load totally unstrapped. No it’s not got to fall out of the curtain even if the trailer goes on it’s side but that could seriously hurt someone when the curtain is opened and one of the top one falls off on you. If you’ve only unbuckled the curtain and not pulled it back yet you won’t even see it fall. Those things are hardly the most stable when stacked up. If it’s too close to the roof to pull internals over then refuse to take it or take it with it only 2 high but not 3 high.

Even if you’re right about that, that’s not within DVSA’s remit, that would be a H&S issue at the site.

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It wouldn’t be if the possibility of it falling off on site goes to the question of whether it would also fall off onto the road (including when law officers are going about the reasonable enquiries or inspections which they may be entitled to perform).

Whether a load is secure does not just include how the load is intended to be dealt with whilst out on the road. For example, nobody intends to turn the trailer on its side in an accident. It includes how it may in fact end up being dealt with.

The Road Traffic legislation simply specifies an offence if the vehicle is used on a road and the manner of securing “involves danger to any person”. It is not specified that the person caused danger must actually be on the road.

In other words, if you accept that the manner of securing the load looks likely to be dangerous to a person on site at the destination, then you’ve already cooked your goose with the DVSA.

hsl.gov.uk/publications-and … e-law-says

No legal obligation to to secure a load to withstand a rollover/crash or be righted with the load in place only normal forces experienced in cornering or emergency stops or situations that could be reasonably expected on the public highway.

22

Geoffo:
After each row of bails,the driver has to put the ratchet strap over the row, using a mini step ladder if he has one. This being done before the next row is loaded.

Step ladder would be out of the question on a lot of sites - even places with the staircase on wheels won’t always let you use them if its not specifically for people to use to secure loads.

Geoffo:
H&S would also do a merry dance ( not) if you were to load it this way.

They certainly would.

Geoffo:
The problem is a lot of companies won’t allow the driver anywhere near the truck while it’s being loaded.

They won’t allow you near to the truck, yet very few places actually have a ‘safe area’ to secure the load in, and many are happy to continue normal yard operations, Hgv maneuvering, forklifts/plant moving around etc. while you secure the load.

Geoffo:
So easy for VOSA to say it’s not safe.

It’s the easiest way to enforce their rules. In reality the loading point/haulier details should be noted and if the issue keeps cropping up pay them a visit - check what equipment they give their driver. If it’s an own account company (recycling firm etc.) then what process do they have at their yard. Would a taller trailer help? What about just loading 2 rows of bales instead of 3 - that would be easier and would avoid drivers working at height as well as you wouldn’t even need to climb any steps! - yes it’s wasted space and less money for the company but health & safety is a top priority - at least when it suits…I think the gem below Harry Monk posted on another thread recently pretty much sums up a lot of companies views…

Harry Monk:
Even using ratchet straps, the reels can never be properly secured because they are offset and therefore always able to move towards the less vertical section of strapping. Of course, they could load fewer reels on each trailer, loading them centrally but somehow safety isn’t quite as important when it affects a paper manufacturer’s profits.

23

Geoffo:
There is a way to strap this, but it’s tedious.
After each row of bails,the driver has to put the ratchet strap over the row, using a mini step ladder if he has one.

That’s what we have to do picking up pre-cut timber from a suppliers as its that close to the roof. They have a set of airport steps you can wheel around. Takes a while but it’ll keep you fit.

24

Own Account Driver:

Rjan:
…

No legal obligation to to secure a load to withstand a rollover/crash or be righted with the load in place only normal forces experienced in cornering or emergency stops or situations that could be reasonably expected on the public highway.

I agree. Obviously, it does not have to be secure against an asteroid strike. But it’s up to a judge to decide what circumstances it reasonably needs to be secure against.

If the driver does not intend to pull back the curtain at the roadside, the he might argue that the load is thus secure whilst the curtain is closed.

But that does not mean that circumstances will not arise where somebody does pull back the curtain. Including, as I say, in the normal course of events at the destination site, and the normal activities of enforcement authorities.

And the driver may still argue by analogy that if you unstrap a strapped load at the roadside, then you will have an unsecure load, same as if you pull back the curtain on a load secured by the curtain.

But the purpose of straps is as additional restraint on items that, when the vehicle is stationary, are reasonably secure on the bed under their own weight. You should expect to be able to remove the straps without immediate danger - even given normal vagaries of terrain which might change the balance of a tall load or normal gusts of wind. If, with a view to unloading, you cannot remove the straps without danger or without letting rip and jumping back, then that load is not a secure load.

With spongy bales of assorted rubbish stacked to the trailer roof, obviously there is a question whether they are sufficiently secure under their own weight when the vehicle is stationary and all restraints are removed. One layer directly on the bed may have been steady as houses, but three is obviously top-heavy.

In this case, it seems only to be the internal straps which are still keeping everything in.

And I can only imagine that it is on this basis that the load has been declared insecure. Not because it risks spilling in transit - which seems implausible - but because there is a risk of it being unsafe to inspect or unload in any familiar fashion.

It’s probably something for drivers to bear in mind, that a load should still be reasonably secure in place when the vehicle is stationary and all restraints are removed.

25

bald bloke:

Geoffo:
There is a way to strap this, but it’s tedious.
After each row of bails,the driver has to put the ratchet strap over the row, using a mini step ladder if he has one. This being done before the next row is loaded.
H&S would also do a merry dance ( not) if you were to load it this way.

The problem is a lot of companies won’t allow the driver anywhere near the truck while it’s being loaded.

So easy for VOSA to say it’s not safe.

Can’t win either way.

Could’ve just turned up to swap trailers and it was already loaded similar to what happens to recycling at our place.

Yes. Could easily be. Definitely no chance of strapping it properly then.

26

Rjan:

Own Account Driver:

Rjan:
…

No legal obligation to to secure a load to withstand a rollover/crash or be righted with the load in place only normal forces experienced in cornering or emergency stops or situations that could be reasonably expected on the public highway.

I agree. Obviously, it does not have to be secure against an asteroid strike. But it’s up to a judge to decide what circumstances it reasonably needs to be secure against.

If the driver does not intend to pull back the curtain at the roadside, the he might argue that the load is thus secure whilst the curtain is closed.

But that does not mean that circumstances will not arise where somebody does pull back the curtain. Including, as I say, in the normal course of events at the destination site, and the normal activities of enforcement authorities.

And the driver may still argue by analogy that if you unstrap a strapped load at the roadside, then you will have an unsecure load, same as if you pull back the curtain on a load secured by the curtain.

But the purpose of straps is as additional restraint on items that, when the vehicle is stationary, are reasonably secure on the bed under their own weight. You should expect to be able to remove the straps without immediate danger - even given normal vagaries of terrain which might change the balance of a tall load or normal gusts of wind. If, with a view to unloading, you cannot remove the straps without danger or without letting rip and jumping back, then that load is not a secure load.

With spongy bales of assorted rubbish stacked to the trailer roof, obviously there is a question whether they are sufficiently secure under their own weight when the vehicle is stationary and all restraints are removed. One layer directly on the bed may have been steady as houses, but three is obviously top-heavy.

In this case, it seems only to be the internal straps which are still keeping everything in.

And I can only imagine that it is on this basis that the load has been declared insecure. Not because it risks spilling in transit - which seems implausible - but because there is a risk of it being unsafe to inspect or unload in any familiar fashion.

It’s probably something for drivers to bear in mind, that a load should still be reasonably secure in place when the vehicle is stationary and all restraints are removed.

In that case DVSA should be stopping every walking floor trailer on the road, because as soon as you open the doors, stuff falls out! [emoji1]

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27

raymundo:
How about throwing a strap over the top when two high and just let the top one go unstrapped, surely the curtain would hold that one in place ■■

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
sheep for a lamb.
if its ok for a third of the trailer to be unsecured,then its ok for the lot…or not,so no point in strapping any of it as you will just get find the same .
ive loaded in places where the forkies take your 15 or 20 straps and as the load is going onto the trailer,then just lob the straps over the top when its on the forks so that when its all loaded with 2 inches of gap,then all you need to do is position your hooks,then go and fasten your ratchets on the other side…its a lack of concern from the loaders company and as usual,the buck stops at the driver.

28

DickyNick:
The only thing that’s a ■■■■ take here isn’t the police or DVSA it’s the driver and clearly some of you on here who think it’s acceptable to run around with that load totally unstrapped. No it’s not got to fall out of the curtain even if the trailer goes on it’s side but that could seriously hurt someone when the curtain is opened and one of the top one falls off on you

I’ve not seen a single person suggest that on here and if they had I’d have been the first to have had a right go at them. Those bales are over 4ft long, they’re much longer than they are tall and there’s little space for any vertical movement between the top bales and the roof so they’d have to defy the laws of physics to fall over when the curtains were unbuckled. At the very worst if there was a large enough gap at the back and they weren’t cross strapped at the rear the rear stack could fall backwards but it wouldn’t go sideways.

29

RIPPER:
As far as i’m concerned the straps he’s thrown over the outside of the trailer should suffice, but WTF do i know, just a cash cow for DVSA :imp: :imp: :imp:

edd1974:
So obv they stopped the driver issued a fine for an insecure load. Then what?
Do they let him.go on his way.
Or do the actually tell /show him.how it should be strapped safely.
As im.guessing vosa don’t have a clue on how to secure a load.
So how can then deem it’s insecure.

Just relooked at the photos in the original post and it dawned on me what’s happened.

Gerry J got pulled with bulging curtains, DVSA tug him, open up and realise that’s not getting strapped internally so they had the driver close the curtains and THEN throw the ratchet straps over the roof, before being released.

You’re looking at before and after pics…

RIPPER:
From CPMG twitter feed

Driver reported and not allowed to move untill it was secured.

30

Which raises an interesting point, nothing in the law or any guidelines state that straps must be on the inside of the curtains and the DVSA we’re seemingly satisfied with (or instigators of) Gerry J’s fix, so why didn’t the driver just do that from the outset when he picked up the trailer, laziness or lack of experience/training? Who knows but it shoots down all arguments of “it couldn’t be strapped that’s why it wasn’t”.

31

Reef:
Just relooked at the photos in the original post and it dawned on me what’s happened.

Gerry J got pulled with bulging curtains, DVSA tug him, open up and realise that’s not getting strapped internally so they had the driver close the curtains and THEN throw the ratchet straps over the roof, before being released.

You’re looking at before and after pics…

RIPPER:
From CPMG twitter feed

Driver reported and not allowed to move untill it was secured.

You may be right…but there is no debris on the floor by the trailer in pic 2 where there is in pic 1…leads me to believe that curtain ain’t been open at all, unless it was swept up of course :smiley:

32

RIPPER:
but there is no debris on the floor by the trailer in pic 2 where there is in pic 1…

Is this…

Possibly the debris mentioned previously that might fall and could potentially hurt people when the curtain is opened, therefore deeming the load to be unsafe?

I mean, thank god for a hard hat when that Twinky bar wrapper flutters down and clouts you on yer napper.

A possible solution would be for the driver to paint the load bright yellow before closing the curtains… hey presto… everything is safe now.

im a ■■■■■■■ genius

33

Ziltoid:

Rjan:
… It’s probably something for drivers to bear in mind, that a load should still be reasonably secure in place when the vehicle is stationary and all restraints are removed.

In that case DVSA should be stopping every walking floor trailer on the road, because as soon as you open the doors, stuff falls out! [emoji1]

I considered the analogy with loose bulk materials, but there are a few things to note. Firstly, you don’t approach the back door to fork off bulk materials. Secondly, the equipment and infrastructure for loading is tailored. Thirdly, small slippages of bulk won’t usually injure (and may cushion any fall).

There are dangerous bulks like scrap metal, but you wouldn’t have it loaded like these rubbish bales on a curtainsider.

What we are dealing with here is an itemised load on a curtainsider, not loose bulk material on a suitable bulk trailer.

Items loaded and unloaded with normal safe working methods will remain passive when placed unrestrained on the bed of a curtainsider. Loads which don’t, don’t comply with safe practices for this type of load and cannot be taken out on a road.

At the start I was quite surprised at this scenario - it looks like it would have been secure as long as it wasn’t interfered with - but the more I think about it the more it makes sense that the danger is precisely to the person unloading.

34

Something doesn’t sit right here.

1 - Curtain closed on one side only yet straps across the roof of trailer. How is the open curtain closed with the track obstructed? How is the roof supported against the downward force the straps are now imposing?

2 - If the curtains are rated for load bearing capacity and deemed inadequate restraint are 2/3 straps around the outside really going to be enough? At the very least a strap across each column of bales and arguably over each row as well would be needed.

Like I said something doesn’t sit right at all.

35

I see many trailers on the roads like this, with straps thrown over the roof of the trailer, you wouldn’t want to tighten the straps too much, especially without side pillars

36

What about chipliners how do you strap that down so nothing falls out when you open the curtain. What if you get a tug because it like a pregnant hippo and they demand you to open curtains do you refuse [emoji848].

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37

mdourish:
What about chipliners how do you strap that down so nothing falls out when you open the curtain. What if you get a tug because it like a pregnant hippo and they demand you to open curtains do you refuse [emoji848].

I’d refuse then if they continued to insist I would point out that it was on their heads and they would have to deal with the outcome. I’d also make sure I was videoing my refusal, my explanation for the refusal, them continuing to insist and then the resulting outcome. And once it had fallen on the floor I’d shut the curtains, drive off and leave them with several tons of the stuff to clear up.

38

And yet a load of timber inside a sealed ISO container would get a pass. It’s a revenue generation scheme pure and simple.

39

Nite Owl:
If that was a load bearing curtain, there wouldn’t be an issue. Once again, the employer sends a driver out without the proper equipment knowing that if the driver refuses, they’ll simply get another one.

It seems the employer fines are so low, it’s cheaper to get pulled than to buy proper trailers.

What’s a proper trailer look like?

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40

hsl.gov.uk/publications-and … e-law-says

No legal obligation to to secure a load to withstand a rollover/crash or be righted with the load in place only normal forces experienced in cornering or emergency stops or situations that could be reasonably expected on the public highway.
[/quote]
The only thing that may contain the load for recovery is an ISO box, but that is classed as “the load”

When we loaded tyres, we tightened the curtains, threw 3 straps over the roof before loading, you cannot secure tyres and you can’t get a full load in a box or fridge, anyway who wants unsweetened rubber and chemicals in a meat or veg fridge?

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