let’s say you get a call, and it goes somthing like: “we’ve gone into liquidation, the liquidators are here, and you need to bring the truck back to the yard”.
would you do it? or would you just go home, and say pick it up yourself?
i think i’d just keep hold of it until i got paid.
i think you might find the old bill knocking on your door fairly quickly if you did that, once the receivers move in the truck becomes the creditors property until the receiver sells it and liquidates the assit into cash, so i would think it might be classed as thieft but i wait to be told different 
wildfire:
i think you might find the old bill knocking on your door fairly quickly if you did that, once the receivers move in the truck becomes the creditors property until the receiver sells it and liquidates the assit into cash, so i would think it might be classed as thieft but i wait to be told different
sounds like fun.
i know phil but at the end of the day the truck wasn’t yours in the first place, unfortuately you have no hold over it in lieu of payment of wages in law, well thats the way i understand it 
I thought you were going to say what if you were told to bring the wagon back to the yard while it was still loaded with something that it shouldn’t have been. 
Liens | Security Interests in Property and Goods | Law firm | London …
gillhams.com/dictionary/19.cfm
Block
If a mechanic can assert a ‘lien’ over a car for unpaid fees,could a driver do that for unpaid wages?
Theft;
“Dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive”
doesn’t tick the boxes for theft, but as your permission to have the vehicle has been revoked, it could be (and in all probability would be) considered as TWOC.
If the keys are in your possession then you could offer to bring them in to the office and tell them where the truck is. I would be inclined to negotiate a one off payment for actually driving the thing though.
I think though long before the liquidators trip up at the yard, you’d see the obvious signs that the company was in administration…
wildfire:
i know phil but at the end of the day the truck wasn’t yours in the first place, unfortuately you have no hold over it in lieu of payment of wages in law, well thats the way i understand it
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
If the person demanding return of the truck can do that, they can also pay wages as you too are a creditor that just happens to be in possession of security for unpaid wages. They’ll no doubt fob off with “Return the truck so we can get our cut of the liquidation pie, and I can assure you you’ll get paid in due course (yeh right!)”
you are holding the truck as security as an outstanding creditor. It isn’t therefore theft.
Defaulting unsecured loans isn’t theft either, but the guys in suits will tell you it is, as if a creditor has a god-given right to claim back monies. What happens in practice is the guys in suits get THEIR money, but you the worker “get let go” without being paid, because you were unable or unaware to enforce your own debt the company owes you (unpaid wages).
Strange that unpaid wages for YOU as a creditor is perfectly OK to default, but not any assets in your possession that THEY want from you as current “keeper of vehicle”. They can’t have it both ways. Tell them the truck is returned as soon as you get your P45 with a bankers draft of cash for your final outstanding pay. It would be illegal for the bust firm to offer you any kind of credit or cheque. They won’t tell you that of course. Neither will the receivers, because they just want to reassure you to return the truck without further ado.
Keeping the truck as security for an outstanding debt is no more illegal than any of the described actions of the receivers depicted above, or anyone from the now-defunct firm. 
It isn’t theft any more than not paying your wages is theft. You might never get paid, but no one will ever be charged with theft. Neither will you be therefore, but they’ll try and scare you otherwise.
Know what you can do under common law! 
You can exercise your right to a lien, which is to hold goods/property against an unpaid debt - In law, a lien is a form of security interest granted over an item of property to secure the payment of a debt or performance of some other obligation. and I do know of people who have done it and won. The trouble is that they may not own the truck, it could be leased or on hp. Also, it would be a fair guess that they wouldn’t owe as much in wages as the value of the truck so again, it may seem a little OTT.
Your biggest worry is that you are now in the hands of the biggest bunch of crooks ever to walk on planet earth. Receivers, liquidators whatever fancy title they call themselves, are blatant thieves who take what they want first, sell it to their brother in law or aunty at 10% or what it would fetch at auction and sell the rest of the rubbish for just enough to cover their overpriced expenses.
Although their legal obligations are to do the best possible deal for all the debtors, they just seem to look after a select few of them and screw the rest. Unfortunately, you will be classed as the rest.
I did it the right way once and got FA, even though everyone was promised about 15p in the £. To this day, I have not had a penny and that was 30 yrs ago. Since then, I’ve always tried to get something to get my moneys worth back, be it a till, stock etc. and always done better than just waiting.
I’ll bet that somewhere in this mess, will be a ltd company causing all the problems and laughing while still sitting comfy in his/her house!
In reply to above, if plod is told you are holding items as a lien, it becomes a civil matter in most cases.
first off drain off a good wack off fuel
so you dont have to pay to do the running around in the next few weeks
then go home de kit truck
then run round the agencies
then take the truck back to the yard
so i am told this is the proper way to do it
As an employed driver, take the truck back.
If you are an employee, then you are a preferred creditor. The administrator is obliged to pay you first, ahead even of secured creditors.
If there are insufficient funds realised from the sale of assets (assuming the co goes from administration to liquidation) then the redundancy office will step in and pay what you are owed. You may be eligible for redundancy payments as well.
If you don’t do as the administrators ask (ie you keep hold of the truck) then they can sack you for gross misconduct. No money for you!
If you are self-emplyed, then it’s a different kettle of fish. You could legitimately say the the administrator you will only return the truck if your expenses from the time the administrator was appointed are paid…but there’s no question of you having legal title to it unless it has previously been signed over to you as security.
It would be illegal for the administrator to say to you “I’ll pay you off in full if you bring the truck back, but I won’t be paying the other unsecured creditors.”
If there are any funds to pay unsecured creditors then they are shared out proportionately among them all: ie 50p in the £1 if there’s enough funds to pay half the debt.
i would also drain the fuel tank, or at least leave enough to get it back to the yard.a full tank can’t be far off a a weeks wages nowadays is it?
jonboy
The truth is…that there is a massive diffrence between “The Law” and reality…and in my experience its certain
at the early stages at least the police would not be interested in the slightest.
The problem is…that the bank accounts will have been frozen at an early stage so the business could not
pay you if it wanted to.
As is often the case the trucks, trailers Etc…will be owned by Leasing companies and as such will not be of
interest to any liquidator.
The first thing the liquidator will need to achieve is that his fee is going to be covered…after that its then
a question of realising as much money from the remaining assets as possible.
I have had a meeting last week on a consultancy basis with a liquidator…who has not even been appointed
as yet for this particular company…but its certain that he will be as he is the Banks preferred man.
And yes…it was a meeting to decide…who gets what and for how much… and in fairness its smallish
company…and all drivers are being paid but its forced by the bnak no longer supporting the level of
borrowing…and the owner just wants out of it all now.
Derf:
I think though long before the liquidators trip up at the yard, you’d see the obvious signs that the company was in administration…
Not necessarily, it can all happen on a Friday afternoon and the gates are locked if there is a chance that people may help themselves to goods in exchange for wages.
Winseer:
wildfire:
i know phil but at the end of the day the truck wasn’t yours in the first place, unfortuately you have no hold over it in lieu of payment of wages in law, well thats the way i understand itPossession is 9/10ths of the law.
If the person demanding return of the truck can do that, they can also pay wages as you too are a creditor that just happens to be in possession of security for unpaid wages. They’ll no doubt fob off with “Return the truck so we can get our cut of the liquidation pie, and I can assure you you’ll get paid in due course (yeh right!)”
you are holding the truck as security as an outstanding creditor. It isn’t therefore theft.
Defaulting unsecured loans isn’t theft either, but the guys in suits will tell you it is, as if a creditor has a god-given right to claim back monies. What happens in practice is the guys in suits get THEIR money, but you the worker “get let go” without being paid, because you were unable or unaware to enforce your own debt the company owes you (unpaid wages).
Strange that unpaid wages for YOU as a creditor is perfectly OK to default, but not any assets in your possession that THEY want from you as current “keeper of vehicle”. They can’t have it both ways. Tell them the truck is returned as soon as you get your P45 with a bankers draft of cash for your final outstanding pay. It would be illegal for the bust firm to offer you any kind of credit or cheque. They won’t tell you that of course. Neither will the receivers, because they just want to reassure you to return the truck without further ado.
Keeping the truck as security for an outstanding debt is no more illegal than any of the described actions of the receivers depicted above, or anyone from the now-defunct firm.
It isn’t theft any more than not paying your wages is theft. You might never get paid, but no one will ever be charged with theft. Neither will you be therefore, but they’ll try and scare you otherwise.
Know what you can do under common law!
I’d better add that if the vehicle is LOADED, then it would be classed as theft from the bust haulier’s client!
You can’t be accused of theft from someone who owes you, otherwise baliffs would be burglars when they take TV’s and household goods (they didn’t sell you) would they not?
A piece of paper gives no one the right to break any laws on any side. Its how the law is enforced that makes all the difference.
I was thinking you were in the process of returning home on the very last leg having dropped the empty trailer off and everything. I wouldn’t be parking the solo cab outside your house either!
Had the owner said ‘You may not be paid any more’ , then keeping the truck would be considered a Lien and therefore the whole debacle becomes a civil matter.
As no mention has been made of you not being paid, should you decide not to return the vehicle after your consent to have it has been revoked, you have then taken the vehicle without consent. This is then a criminal matter not a civil one and you’d leave yourself open to arrest.
(in all probability while you are being interviewed and subsequently released with no further action, the truck would have been returned to the Administrator so the whole exercise would have been pointless on your part)
limeyphil:
wildfire:
i think you might find the old bill knocking on your door fairly quickly if you did that, once the receivers move in the truck becomes the creditors property until the receiver sells it and liquidates the assit into cash, so i would think it might be classed as thieft but i wait to be told differentsounds like fun.
You are in possession of the truck.
You are an outstanding creditor who just happens to have security present.
You are also the registered keeper in that you are totally responsible for any offences/fines that might result from using that vehicle.
I’d even go as far to say that should a receiver not be interested in coughing up your pay to add this meaty asset to their “to strip” stack, then you’d even have a case for bidding £1 for the truck yourself in “full and final settlement of debts owed to you”.
In practice, some lacky will be around with a brown envelope (might even be your boss!), having already tried the police route and got nowhere…
Meet them on neutral ground, and make sure the truck isn’t parked anywhere near YOUR ground so they can’t steal it themselves!
This is what I’d do in my case, working via an agency with a truck that’s originally the property of the haulier.
It won’t work if you are FT (gross misconduct) it won’t work if it’s a hired truck (theft from hire firm) and it won’t work if you’ve already been scared into giving it back for nothing but “assurances” you’ll get paid. You Wont! The intimidating spiel that comes from suits with pushy power-poker psychology like “Haha we’ve bet you off 3 aces 'cos we bet as if we had the nuts (rather than KK)” As agency you are lower than ■■■■ on their shoes I can tell you.
If you are an agency driver, then your contract is with the agency. They have to pay you, whether they have been paid or not.
“You can’t be accused of theft from someone who owes you, otherwise baliffs would be burglars when they take TV’s and household goods (they didn’t sell you) would they not?”
A baliff can only seize goods if he has a court order allowing him to do so. Otherwise he is acting unlawfully, and can be prosecuted for a wide range of offences (theft, criminal damage, threatening behaviour, going equipped to steal, you name it).