If a firm goes bust

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

GasGas:
If you are an agency driver, then your contract is with the agency. They have to pay you, whether they have been paid or not.

“You can’t be accused of theft from someone who owes you, otherwise baliffs would be burglars when they take TV’s and household goods (they didn’t sell you) would they not?”

A baliff can only seize goods if he has a court order allowing him to do so. Otherwise he is acting unlawfully, and can be prosecuted for a wide range of offences (theft, criminal damage, threatening behaviour, going equipped to steal, you name it).

Luckily for me, I keep the agencies with no built in guarantees over wages at arms length. A PAYE agency is more likely to give you pay regardless, in which case it is quite correct to return the truck because you’re not involved in the breakup of the firm one bit. Your pay is indeed in the bag already. :slight_smile:

Agencies that are subsideries of the main local haulier on the other hand (and there are quite a few!) would be going into administration at the same time the bust haulier is pounced on by the receivers. Receivers are likely to investigate the possibility that money has been hived out of the business into satellites & subsideries. An agency has no asset value to speak of. If it ceases trading because a holding company has the receivers in, it is likely to go bust itself because it’s income steam has been destroyed, and the confidence of other clients on the books will be lessened to such an extent that recovery is unlikely The firm won’t survive long enough to be sold on as a “going concern”. :arrow_right:

If you are on the books of such an agency, then no number of “assurances” from the agency to honour its “contractual commitment” are likely to stand up if it has too been brought down due to (business empire) cash seizure. Didn’t Enron fall apart from a similar problem between the main holding firm and all its subsideries? :question:

The more companies daisy chain themselves together in this way, the more likely that crushing one part of the empire will cause a chain reaction throughout, which leaves little behind except for asset strippers. :frowning:

The fairly recent epsode of FAREPAK springs to mind. The firm had plenty of money - after all, customers had paid up front. That there was none when the smoke cleared would suggest a criminal act had taken place… Alas, customers didn’t get their money back, and no one went to jail for theft & false accounting! So what happened to all that lost money? :question:

22

Would you still be insured to drive the vehicle .
If the firm went ■■■■ up surley the insurance would be cancelled or not ?

23

Winseer:

GasGas:
If you are an agency driver, then your contract is with the agency. They have to pay you, whether they have been paid or not.

“You can’t be accused of theft from someone who owes you, otherwise baliffs would be burglars when they take TV’s and household goods (they didn’t sell you) would they not?”

A baliff can only seize goods if he has a court order allowing him to do so. Otherwise he is acting unlawfully, and can be prosecuted for a wide range of offences (theft, criminal damage, threatening behaviour, going equipped to steal, you name it).

Luckily for me, I keep the agencies with no built in guarantees over wages at arms length. A PAYE agency is more likely to give you pay regardless, in which case it is quite correct to return the truck because you’re not involved in the breakup of the firm one bit. Your pay is indeed in the bag already. :slight_smile:

Agencies that are subsideries of the main local haulier on the other hand (and there are quite a few!) would be going into administration at the same time the bust haulier is pounced on by the receivers. Receivers are likely to investigate the possibility that money has been hived out of the business into satellites & subsideries. An agency has no asset value to speak of. If it ceases trading because a holding company has the receivers in, it is likely to go bust itself because it’s income steam has been destroyed, and the confidence of other clients on the books will be lessened to such an extent that recovery is unlikely The firm won’t survive long enough to be sold on as a “going concern”. :arrow_right:

If you are on the books of such an agency, then no number of “assurances” from the agency to honour its “contractual commitment” are likely to stand up if it has too been brought down due to (business empire) cash seizure. Didn’t Enron fall apart from a similar problem between the main holding firm and all its subsideries? :question:

The more companies daisy chain themselves together in this way, the more likely that crushing one part of the empire will cause a chain reaction throughout, which leaves little behind except for asset strippers. :frowning:

The fairly recent epsode of FAREPAK springs to mind. The firm had plenty of money - after all, customers had paid up front. That there was none when the smoke cleared would suggest a criminal act had taken place… Alas, customers didn’t get their money back, and no one went to jail for theft & false accounting! So what happened to all that lost money? :question:

I believe the police are still trying to catch the former chief executive of European Home Retail (Farepack)
Apparantly the money was used to purchase a tv channel that was hemoraging money and then continued to do so.
“I want one of those.com” and Kleeneze very nearly went with it

24

fingermissing:
Would you still be insured to drive the vehicle .
If the firm went ■■■■ up surley the insurance would be cancelled or not ?

Hiya that would be my first question…when Iddon transport (Leylandltd)packed up the lorries was
just left at customers sites(aylesham been one)and the drivers made there own way home.
John

25

well if this does happen. i know someone that will break it for export.

26

fingermissing:
Would you still be insured to drive the vehicle .
If the firm went ■■■■ up surley the insurance would be cancelled or not ?

The insurance isn’t paid on a day-to-day basis, but in reoccuring blocks. My guess is that the previous block they paid will run on a few days/weeks beyond the shutdown date. Insurance isn’t removed because some third-party parasite “withdraws” permission on a bust firm’s behalf. :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

27

Winseer:

fingermissing:
Would you still be insured to drive the vehicle .
If the firm went ■■■■ up surley the insurance would be cancelled or not ?

The insurance isn’t paid on a day-to-day basis, but in reoccuring blocks. My guess is that the previous block they paid will run on a few days/weeks beyond the shutdown date. Insurance isn’t removed because some third-party parasite “withdraws” permission on a bust firm’s behalf. :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

But as soon as they say so - you are NOT insured to drive it.

28

I can give you an example of this from my own personal experience.

I was Fleet manager with a fair sized fleet of salesman’s cars. A salesman based in Glasgow but living in Perth, was fired. When he was hauled into his boss’s office and told, he just walked out, got in his car and drove back to Perth. He claimed he was owed some commission and wouldn’t give the car back until he was paid. The manager phoned me in Birmingham to see what he should do.

I wrote to the guy formally telling him that he wasn’t insured to drive the car while people above my pay scale negotiated a deal. We knew that the car was on his driveway behind another vehicle and I was advised that we would need a court order to remove it. The police didn’t want to know as it wasn’t theft, so all we wanted was the cheapest solution.

Eventually he agreed to give it back and I went to Glasgow on the train, collected the manager, and drove to Perth. When we got there the car was out on the road. The guy came out with the keys and a big grin on his face, and dropped them ‘accidentally’ down a drain. Of course I had a spare set so that wiped his smile but after that no salesman got fired while he still had his car keys.

29

You are in possession of the truck.
OK

You are an outstanding creditor who just happens to have security present.
[not true anless you are a self employed subbie

You are also the registered keeper in that you are totally responsible for any offences/fines that might result from using that vehicle.
Not true - The registered keeper is the name on the V5

I’d even go as far to say that should a receiver not be interested in coughing up your pay to add this meaty asset to their “to strip” stack, then you’d even have a case for bidding £1 for the truck yourself in “full and final settlement of debts owed to you”.
Total rubbish - The reciever (not liquidator) has a legal responsibility to get the best price possible for the assets. As far as wages owed are concerned - Liabilities adopted by an administrator and which are “wages or salary” are payable prior to the administrator’s own expenses (Insolvency Act 1986 sch B1, para 99)

I am sure that if any driver took possesion of a truck in lieu of wages (or anything else) owed, then they would quickly start legal procedings to get it back - and, of course, their expenses.

30

Derf:
Theft;

“Dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive”

doesn’t tick the boxes for theft, but as your permission to have the vehicle has been revoked, it could be (and in all probability would be) considered as TWOC.

Correct

:smiley: :smiley:

31

What your lot let administrators do is real theft but I doubt you will ever bother to act on that. It always seems legal if it’s done wearing a suit…

32

I did a load of security work for recievers years ago, believe me, they have more power than you think.

33

Phil just drain the tanks and thatll cover what your owed, your wages will be a bonus. :laughing:

34

when an administration firm comes into any firm they already have the court order to start winding up procedures, they are acting on the courts request for the creditors of the company, they have more powers than most of you think. if you were to hold onto or seize anything that was previously owned by the company you would possible be held in contempt of court, and one thing judges don’t like is anyone being in contempt, only look at the reasent cases of juriers that have gone to prison for contempt, and as someone pointed out earlier your wages are safe as the government pay if the company can’t :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

35

when an administration firm comes into any firm they already have the court order to start winding up procedures, they are acting on the courts request for the creditors of the company, they have more powers than most of you think. if you were to hold onto or seize anything that was previously owned by the company you would possible be held in contempt of court, and one thing judges don’t like is anyone being in contempt, only look at the reasent cases of juriers that have gone to prison for contempt, and as someone pointed out earlier your wages are safe as the government pay if the company can’t :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

36

personally I’d find some one along ferry lane to send it off for a life in the sun for you. minus a tank of diesel of course :smiley:

37

If reasonable negotiations break down- I bring you the truck you hand over whats mine in cash sort of thing-.I would drain most of the diesel and oil drive to a less sulubrious part of town and leave it. When questioned say “your colleague came and collected it yesterday,he was a big lad so I did not argue with him”".

38

Santa:

Winseer:

fingermissing:
Would you still be insured to drive the vehicle .
If the firm went ■■■■ up surley the insurance would be cancelled or not ?

The insurance isn’t paid on a day-to-day basis, but in reoccuring blocks. My guess is that the previous block they paid will run on a few days/weeks beyond the shutdown date. Insurance isn’t removed because some third-party parasite “withdraws” permission on a bust firm’s behalf. :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

But as soon as they say so - you are NOT insured to drive it.

Sorry Bud, I don’t and can’t agree with implied “on the nod” laws like this.

I don’t think George Osbourne is fit for office. That doesn’t mean he gets sacked, let alone getting prosecuted or me getting his job - just because I said so. :slight_smile:

On the other hand, if I voted against the Tories at the next election, and everyone else happened to agree with me, then he WOULD be removed from office - but I still wound’t get his job and he still would not end up in jail regardless of how much of the economy he has destroyed in the meantime. :imp:

If anyone paid in full for insurance, and the insurance has not been cancelled (only worth doing for a rebate) then some receiver who might have already taken posession of some parked trucks in the yard would then be saying that THEY are uninsured too… Get away with it if they are off-road, but what about the ones in laybys, other customers premesis, and so on? :confused:

No insurance firm is going to “cancel” anything in any case just 'cos some freak in a suit says “Look, I’m the Master and you willl obey me” down the phone! At the insurance end, they’d be asking for full court paperwork (takes ages!) and all the other bits. Given this much notice, as previous posters have already said, the firm would be clearly ■■■■ up weeks beforehand, and no one would do business with them. :astonished:

39

limeyphil:
let’s say you get a call, and it goes somthing like: “we’ve gone into liquidation, the liquidators are here, and you need to bring the truck back to the yard”.
would you do it? or would you just go home, and say pick it up yourself?
i think i’d just keep hold of it until i got paid.

The truck would not probaly belong to your company its probably on lease or H.P. there whoever is the lesse or finance company, they are the owners of the truck, and you would be in serious trouble.

What you have to do is ring the official recievers office up in Watford they will send you a form to complete. Fill it all in with the liquidators name and address on it then send it to the address in Birmingham, and the Goverment will pay you .
But there is a cap on the total payment but you will get most of it. In all takes about 6 weeks I know that is no good to you at present but you will get it.

40

Personally I’d just take the truck straight back to the yard, put the stuff in my car and go home while chalking it up to experience. I take it none of you chaps drive to work then because in many instances if you’ve got their truck they’ve got your car and while the truck is obviously worth more it isn’t yours and I’d rather just have a my car back.