I-shifts & other auto box attrocities

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
161

Hi, All
To add a bit to the debate about auto or manual.
I agree with NMM it’s not usually the gearbox that gives problems, it’s all the bit s and gadgetry tacked onto it . Even the IShift has had it.s faults, the early versions would have bankrupted an O/D, but now they seem to have got them sorted.
Reliability of auto boxes has come along way, remember the early ESP boxes that Mercs foisted on us ? you daren’t drive upto a wall cos you couldn’t be sure that you would find a reverse gear to get away from it. that is just one of many problems that have been overcome. They (auto’s) are supposed to have a "limp out of the way "gear to get you in a layby, but ,as NMM says you can’t repair ,or jury-rig it when you do get in the layby. Score some points for a manual.
If ,however, my daily diet was all urban work , give me an auto every time. If nothing else it leaves you with an extra hand to give the old two fingered salute to all the other steering wheel attendants that you come across!

Cheers Bassman
P.S. Just seen C/F,s last post . The first FM that I had,or should I say I was the main driver, cos it was double shifted for a large part of the time,
it did numerous trailer changes, and no two drivers do that exactly the same, spent most of it’s life on and off building sites and in and out concrete plants, and the original clutch was changed at 700.000 ks, and that was done because the gear box was out to have a new bearing fitted. Common sense to put it back with a new clutch. Score some points for auto’s!

162

Tony Taylor:
Carryfast, I don’t know which planet you’ve come from!Go back and read what you’ve just written- it really is verbal diarrhea.

Please explain further.It’s an interesting subject in finding out exactly how you can ‘creep’,in the accepted sense,using a manual box using a clutch without slipping it,and what’s the difference between a system that relies on the driver to provide the accelerator input while the system does the clutch compared to the idea of expecting the driver and a passenger to do the same on a hill start for example.If what I’m saying is so called zb then obviously Crow must be taliking as much zb as I am but strangely I see no complaint from you the same in his case. :unamused:

163

quite an interesting thread this, hearing peopled different opinions on these I shifts etc, interestingly enough my manual FH 13 had a hill start button, this auto one hasnt, I am still of the opinion that this thing I have now is a waste of space on my job & nothing I have seen on here will change my mind, I would like to hear my govenors cutrent opinion too as 3 have failed recently, as for Mr Logic & his opinions I know who I would prefer around me in a breakdown in the middle of nowhere & it wouldnt be him many a good tune played on an old fiddle I say, and whilst we are going on scrambled eggs would be my bet too. Lightly salted at my age :slight_smile:

Another 1000 miles so far in it & I havent changed my mind.

164

fly sheet:
many a good tune played on an old fiddle I say, and whilst we are going on scrambled eggs would be my bet too. Lightly salted at my age :slight_smile:

Another 1000 miles so far in it & I havent changed my mind.

:smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

You forgot the toast but I don’t like eggs so I’ll have extra bacon instead.

Why don’t you send that post to Fuller and tell them that you don’t like what you’re being asked to drive. :bulb: :wink:

165

Carryfast:

Tony Taylor:
Carryfast, I don’t know which planet you’ve come from!Go back and read what you’ve just written- it really is verbal diarrhea.

Please explain further.It’s an interesting subject in finding out exactly how you can ‘creep’,in the accepted sense,using a manual box using a clutch without slipping it,and what’s the difference between a system that relies on the driver to provide the accelerator input while the system does the clutch compared to the idea of expecting the driver and a passenger to do the same on a hill start for example.If what I’m saying is so called zb then obviously Crow must be taliking as much zb as I am but strangely I see no complaint from you the same in his case. :unamused:

Carryfast,I can’t see the logic in your comparison between people and computers.A computer, when programmed properly will do the same thing over and over again and not make any mistakes.please tell me why you have to know exactly how it works,does it really matter to you and I how it works, is it not enough to know that it does,read Bassmans testament, 700,000 kms and the clutch still not worn out after years of “creeping” on and off building sites.I am not a design engineer being payed countless thousands a year any more than you are.I don’t know how the inside of a computer works,I just know that it does.Instead of trying to disect and rubbish everything about auto boxes,why can’t you just accept that they are here, they work and they’re being improved on all the time.My last word on this subect,unless you’re going to say something sensible.

166

Carryfast, the only way to avoid clutch slip is to dump the clutch and the whole purpose of a clutch is to engage drive smoothly, so they’re engineered to slip anyway, obviously this can be abused by holding a vehicle on the clutch, which you can do with either a clutch pedal, or by the throttle position on an automated manual, but in both cases service life will be dramatically reduced :open_mouth:

What you say about the passenger engaging the clutch as the driver hits the throttle and the similarities between that and an AMT show that you really don’t get it at all :unamused:

It’s not rocket science, the clutch is operated by solenoids that get a signal from the throttle position sensor or the crank speed sensor, when the trigger point is reached, the solenoids engage the clutch smoothly and off you go :bulb:

I had an early AMT in a 520 Eurostar, being Italian it had electrical issues, so the electronics were yanked off and replaced with a gearstick, under all the electronic trickery was a run of the mill Eaton Twin Splitter, the newer boxes are the same, just without the clutch pedal, so in theory you could convert I-Shift etc into a manual box, but it would be constant mesh and the lorry probably wouldn’t get out of the yard with a modern day steering attendant behind the wheel :laughing:

167

Something must have been badly wrong with our Dafs because you couldnt hold them on the throttle no way it was on or off no in between trust me i tried enough times we were told it was because the throttle was fly by wire and not a cable, meant nothing to me i just found them very jumpy no matter how gentle i was with the throttle ,unless like i said earlier they were set up wrong

168

Hi NMM,

Your comment on the electronics being taken off a Eurostar and reverting it to a manual. A local firm had that done to an ERF that was fitted with the auto assistance box, can’t remember what it was called but I believe it was a Twin Splitter at the bottom of all the wires.
It was an almost new truck and it played up from day one. If memory serves me right ERF paid for the conversion.

Cheers Bassman

169

Bassman:
Hi NMM,

Your comment on the electronics being taken off a Eurostar and reverting it to a manual. A local firm had that done to an ERF that was fitted with the auto assistance box, can’t remember what it was called but I believe it was a Twin Splitter at the bottom of all the wires.
It was an almost new truck and it played up from day one. If memory serves me right ERF paid for the conversion.

Cheers Bassman

Hi bassman,
Would that be the awfull s.a.m.t? Semi automated manual transmission,quite revolutionary at the time (1987/8) I drove a new foden demo with that system on it.a mate had a new erf with it,was nothing but trouble.
Regards Andrew.

170

Yes it was SAMT, I first came across it on an M reg EuroTech, my EuroStar was on an N plate :wink:

The problem with a lot of the AutoShifts is that the software has glitches in it, the hardware is fine, but let down by the controls :unamused:

171

Hi Pete359,
Yes that was the name of it it would have been around 89/90, it was a gearbox I never used myself and I can’t recollect any one I knew having any experience of one.
Cheers Bassman

172

newmercman:
Carryfast, the only way to avoid clutch slip is to dump the clutch and the whole purpose of a clutch is to engage drive smoothly, so they’re engineered to slip anyway, obviously this can be abused by holding a vehicle on the clutch, which you can do with either a clutch pedal, or by the throttle position on an automated manual, but in both cases service life will be dramatically reduced :open_mouth:

What you say about the passenger engaging the clutch as the driver hits the throttle and the similarities between that and an AMT show that you really don’t get it at all :unamused:

It’s not rocket science, the clutch is operated by solenoids that get a signal from the throttle position sensor or the crank speed sensor, when the trigger point is reached, the solenoids engage the clutch smoothly and off you go :bulb:

I had an early AMT in a 520 Eurostar, being Italian it had electrical issues, so the electronics were yanked off and replaced with a gearstick, under all the electronic trickery was a run of the mill Eaton Twin Splitter, the newer boxes are the same, just without the clutch pedal, so in theory you could convert I-Shift etc into a manual box, but it would be constant mesh and the lorry probably wouldn’t get out of the yard with a modern day steering attendant behind the wheel :laughing:

It’s the difference between dumping the clutch which is no good and too much slip which is just as bad and getting it just right which is what I’m saying nmm.So we’ve got a accelerator position sensor and/or engine crank position sensor neither of which obviously have the sense to know wether or not the engine speed doesn’t match the gearbox input shaft speed with the clutch in engagement (clutch slip) or it wouldn’t be possible to burn the clutch out on an automated manual,by the driver using an accelerator pedal input,in the scenario,as you’ve described,of ‘holding the vehicle on the clutch’,in just the same way as doing the same thing by holding a vehicle on the clutch and/or getting the balance between accelerator input and clutch engagement wrong on a conventional manual trans would. :bulb:

However in the case of the automated manual it’s more likely because the driver,who’s actually controlling the accelerator input, (the sensors are only able to detect it but they’re obviously not able to judge the way in which the clutch is engaged or even abort engagement according to wether that input is correct or not ) because the sensors,unlike a decent driver,haven’t got the slightest idea what that accelerator input will need to be according to wether the thing is being started off on a steep hill at 44 tonnes or on the flat empty or wether it’s just an idiot driver who hasn’t got a clue and is giving the thing more stick than it needs or is holding the vehicle on the clutch,in which case the clutch engagement should be aborted altogether because of a scenario resulting in too much slippage. :bulb:

So what has all that extra technology actually aceived in that case.Bearing in mind that a clutch is only designed to slip to a (very) limited degree or it fries and burns out in no time and getting the accelerator input and clutch engagement balance wrong,hence the amount of slippage,is as bad as holding it on the clutch for doing that and there obviously is no slippage sensor in the system as you’ve described it. :bulb:

173

pip2209:
Bring back the Twin Splitter, proper box and a ■■■■ site faster than any poxy auto, got the MAN auto now and detest the thing.

The Twin Splitter certainly was a lovely box, if they were an option on anything today I’d have one like a shot. However, they’re not offered by anyone I’ve had quotes from so I’ll stick with my ishift, I reckon it’s a cracking gearbox. I was talking to a very good Volvo fitter one day & he showed me a damaged ishift box he was working on. He liked the box & advised me to make certain the oil was changed on mine regularly.

BB

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The twin splitter was my fave gear box, simple to operate & trouble free, Here is a picture of my mates R. Reg Daf tipper still going strong, & he approves of the twin splitter,Plus its the first & only one he has ever driven & gives it full marks on all counts, Regards Larry.

175

I had the opportunity last week to take a pre WW2 bus with the Leyland ‘silent 3rd’ gearbox and OHC 8.6 oil engine out on pre-MOT road test. What a pleasure to have something to drive rather than aim.

176

Carryfast the Volvo the I shift is a 12 speed gearbox and mine in default mode will select 3rd which would be second low in the Volvo 12 speed manual so what people would generally use to pull away. If I’m loaded on a hill I knock it back to 1st before moving as it preserves the clutch.
However I have left it to its devices to see and volvos set up is so good if it’s not happy it will change down quickly and smoothly and even in the worst stop start London has its computing power is powerful enough to juggle the decisions at lightening speed.

177

Carryfast, everyting on the lorry is electric now, brakes, suspension, engine, gearbox and they all communicate with each other, that’s the main thing that allows I Shift etc to function. The problems arise from any one of those sensors not doing its job 100%, then you start getting faults and they become a PITA to drive :unamused:

One of the problems at a roundabout could be that the rear air suspension sensors detect a lower weight due to heavy braking making the weight shift forward, so they go for a higher gear when the driver suddenly slams his right boot to the carpet to pull into a gap that just appeared :question:

178

Hi, Carryfast,One good thing about auto boxes is that it can do the work for you,and in most cases do it very well, or you can choose to override it (go into manual) and do some of the work yourself.It is the driver who sees the hill or roundabout or whatever in front and his reactions whether he has an auto box or a manual decides what happens.
An auto is a great leveller of situations, a bit less to think of, more time to concentrate on other things. Whether you are an experienced driver who takes pride in his job or a steering wheel attendant who just comes does the work and goes home,doesn’t make driving an auto box demeaning. As with a multi gear Fuller you can develope the technique to get a lot out of an auto box , just learn to use all that they have to offer. Whilst it is nice to have some comprehension about how things work, you don’t need a degree (they don’t pay enough) to know how an auto works,as I said in my first post on this subject, trust the technology and do the bit we get paid for, the driving!
Because I seem to be promoting auto boxes does not mean I am wholeheartedly in favour of them. I have had a good few trouble free years with auto’s, mainly the I-Shift, it is still to me “horses for courses”.

Cheers Bassman

179

There’s something thats being overlooked here.

This constant dumbing down has unpleasant results, and we see those results every day of the week, idiotic accidents that should never happen, rollovers especially.

With a manual box (and preferably a vehicle without all this traction control garbage) the driver naturally knows and pre plans an approach to a situation re- speed and conditions, whether it be heavy traffic, roundabout, double bend, anything, if taught properly to use the lorry’s equipment, as in retarder, then the driver will know exactly what gear they are in and therefore the speed as they enter the hazard.

An auto takes away this driver involvement, i don’t hold with this salesman type ■■■■■■■■ that auto leaves the driver free to steer etc…what it does do is leave the driver in a semi comatose state of just sitting behind the wheel steering the bloody thing (with all that free time you’d think they could remember they have a 15’9" trailer on as the pass under the 14’3" bridge, never mind that accident won’t be on my licence eh! no worries), not worried about approaching road conditions or cambers or trival stuff like having a precise knowledge of approach speed to hazard, driver matching gear to road speed already knows their speed.
The truck will sort it out innit, too fast likely to lift the inside drive axle wheel and spin out? no worries the traction control whatever fancy name its been given at the time will control it, don’t need to plan anymore, and i don’t mean to imply that this planning is a constant hard thought process, good real lorry driver approach planning becomes normal to the good driver, as does seeing all things important as they appear.

Lorry driver will feel through seat of pants that traction is getting light at the wheels, steering wheel attendant won’t ever know it happened, the lorry sorted it out…except the SWA didn’t learn anything, didn’t feel the subtle shift happen, didn’t get that light feeling when the inside drive wheel starts to lose traction or that heart in mouth moment of tractor starting to go into an oversteer slide, lorry drivers have all been there its a fast learning curve, you learn to appreciate very quickly just how little traction there can be when conditions combine.

SWA learned not a thing about his vehicles load config, tyre grip on different surfaces, power application, or how the vehicle’s roll starts to build as all the above come into play, as none of the above were transmitted to him unless he noticed the little blinking light telling him the TC had done something, but seeing as modern lorries flash more bloody lights than you can shake a stick at it wouldn’t have registered anyway.

SWA also didn’t learn not to apply power or change gear at the wrong time on a bend, non Volvo autos often change mid roundabout, MAN’s in particular.

Good drivers can make good progress in autos and will take them in their stride and in most cases appreciate the rest, as most here seem to find i believe the Volvo is so far ahead of the other rubbish it could almost be from another era completely, always in the right gear and never revving its bollox off for no reason when others nearly always select wrong gear at junctions (helps that Volvos pull instantly well from really low revs which many don’t)…BUT…Volvo have done something clever too, the retarder being adjustable and requiring a press backward to invoke full early downshift engine braking has kept some driver involment, driver has to remember to invoke it.

We all know that autos are here to stay, thats fine so long as we accept that more and more intrusive electronics will have to accompany them, there are far too many irresponsible overfast cornering rollovers now, things like GPS monitored cornering control will inevitably follow.

180

I like your cmments there Juddian my sentiments exactly so we ve got it in cruise control ,retarder preselected steering with our knees and reading the paper no wonder so many needless accidents well said Crow.