Newmercmans mega post above says it all for me, spot on in every way.
The operators have been blinkered and led wide eyed and legless into the shark’s trap, those who bought into too complicated cars already know the results…you pay, and you’re stuck with us so we charge what we like, only got to look at electric handbrakes, what the hell are they for, but they are now going wrong out of warranty regularly, not the usual £30 for a handbrake cable, try six or seven hundred pounds a throw to sort it?
I noted with mirth the reference to the hill hold facilty, what a lot of ■■■■■■■■ that idea is…had the misfortune to drive a couple of Stralis’ couple of years ago, oh boy what an improvement on the previous boneshaker Eurotechs, much the same fast but crude, only more bloody spurious false warnings than you could shake a stick at and then the hill hold…the problem with which is that the auto box takes that long to make its ponderous mind up at a junction that the hill hold releases roughly a second before the gearbox comittee votes on which gear is needed. About as much use as a chocolate teapot.
This total reliance on the vehicle doing everything for the attendent sitting at the wheel is simply wrong…crap happens and things don’t according to plan, and when that happens you want a lorry driver at the wheel, the type that can still drive by the seat of their pants, can feel when somethings not right at the wheels, ice oil melting tarmac puncture anything, can feel the G’s building up on a bend/roundabout long before it matters and knows what to do about it.
I suppose they’ll cure rollovers in time, the satnav (more pointless garb) will in due course probably decide the speed the vehicle will take the corner at, thank goodness for that half the sods currently claiming to be professionals haven’t a bloody clue.
Christs sake how many more lorries need to be rolled or stuffed under bridges or ram a queue up the arse killing innocents whilst being undriven by another wheel attendent before someone important enough asks the question…‘‘whats gone wrong’’, or possibly someone important enough gets killed
Well said Juddian,i think reading the comments on here theres the lovers and the haters of the autos,i personally dont like them the i shift being the only one that comes anywhere near being any good ( my opinion dont take this as gospel).We ran around 10 Ivecos all autos some with the wide cab some with the narrow one and all had 1 thing in common,they were crap.If i had my own company and i had been running those vehicles i would have been bankrupt within 6 months .Warning lights were a way of life with them , a driver would come in for his shift ,get his keys for a strallis and within minutes he would be back with complaints of a warning light on ,wed isolate it turn it back on again and sometime it cured it for a hour sometimes it was back to the dealer,this was so much of a regular occurance it was untrue.The problem was that the vehicle would come back from the dealer i would ring them and find out what the problem was and everytime they would say a sensor fault only for the same light to come back on before the end of his shift.I personaly think they didnt know what the fault was they would plug the laptop in clear the faults and send it back the downtime was unreal.This went on for the 5 year lease we were lumbered with them for .Then we replaced them with manual Daf CFs and they were a massive improvement ,but then some autos arrived and with them came similar faults as what we experienced with the Ivecos and the same response from the dealer.
Is it in this day and age possible to produce a lorry without fitting a computer a straight forward manual motor with the essentials or do these computers control everything from fuel consumption to emissions?
Juddian:
I noted with mirth the reference to the hill hold facilty, what a lot of ■■■■■■■■ that idea is…the problem with which is that the auto box takes that long to make its ponderous mind up at a junction that the hill hold releases roughly a second before the gearbox comittee votes on which gear is needed.
So I’m guessing this could be a slight problem on the 1:3 hill start with the egg placed behind the wheels test.
Although maybe they expect the driver to be able to choose the right gear by manually overriding the automated manual box.Which then just leaves that issue of who is going to engage the clutch and when in perfect required synchronisation with the accelerator application and brake release which the driver obviously could have done,just like putting it into the right gear,if only he had a clutch pedal and had control of the brake release.It’s my bet the egg is going to be toast or should that be on toast.
Tony Taylor:
"it must be cheaper and more economic in terms of reliability and maintenance costs to sort out the driver issue instead"These are your words c/f.and it shows that you understand very little of transport today.It is because of the “driver issue” that auto gear boxes and cruise controls were introduced.They are there to address that issue.As NMM so aptly put it "now they can get out of the yard"Auto gear boxes,cruise controls and all the ancillary equipement will only get better and better as time goes by,but I suppose an old dinosaur like you thinks a 13 speed fuller will be around forever.
So we’ve actually reached the stage where the driver needs an automated manual box to help the driver leave the yard. Surely it’s a case then of be afraid,very afraid,when that driver then gets onto the road.Unless they’ve fitted it with automated manual steering and automated manual brakes and a computer to control them.Maybe the real plan is to gradually go for automated driverless trucks which can’t be any worse if the drivers we’ve got can’t get out of the yard in a truck fitted with a 13/18 speed fuller.
Tell me C/F Can you acttualey drive a motor, regardless of the gearbox & engine, you seem to think that all the owners & drivers cant handle modern technolegey, think again my man, they are all streets ahead of you & your ■■■■ head remarks about the haulage industrey, Regards Larry.
Lawrence Dunbar:
Tell me C/F Can you acttualey drive a motor, regardless of the gearbox & engine, you seem to think that all the owners & drivers cant handle modern technolegey, think again my man, they are all streets ahead of you & your ■■■■ head remarks about the haulage industrey, Regards Larry.
I don’t think I’ve said much different than nmm or Crow has on this topic strange how you only seem to think that it’s only my comments that need all the bs remarks from you though.
Volvo i shift, yep been out in one today, compared to every other bloody awful semi auto its a gem, in the correct gear every single time, no revving its bollox off at junctions cos it went into the wrong gear for 3 yards, proper retarder too…what would the nearest DSA instructor say if he saw me using that and the brakes only minimally as needed, instead of eurosafe…now there’s a contradiction in one term.
Sod me all those Ivecos, some gluttons for punishment you lot
you asked ''Is it in this day and age possible to produce a lorry without fitting a computer a straight forward manual motor with the essentials or do these computers control everything from fuel consumption to emissions?
Probably not completely free of interference, but i’d hazard that Hino are probably as near as you could get, Toyota don’t expect their customers to be unpaid R&D for unproven fashion fads, it has to work and for a lot of years before they change anything.
@ Carryfast.
Wouldn’t be doing any egg tests with an Iveco, just as well probably, according to some we never managed a hill start before the steering wheel attendants gearbox of choice appeared, how did the old buggers manage eh, clutch failed?, no matter they still got the bloody thing back.
Why dont you just throw the towel in now, when you think you may be ahead of the field Eh, think about it mate & quit before you make a right arse of yourself,You no nowt anyone wants to read about, you have no followers at all, Regards Larry.
Lawrence Dunbar:
Tell me C/F Can you acttualey drive a motor, regardless of the gearbox & engine, you seem to think that all the owners & drivers cant handle modern technolegey, think again my man, they are all streets ahead of you & your ■■■■ head remarks about the haulage industrey, Regards Larry.
I don’t think I’ve said much different than nmm or Crow has on this topic strange how you only seem to think that it’s only my comments that need all the bs remarks from you though.
Maybe cos the Crow’s done it all and you’ve done [zb] all
Lawrence Dunbar:
Tell me C/F Can you acttualey drive a motor, regardless of the gearbox & engine, you seem to think that all the owners & drivers cant handle modern technolegey, think again my man, they are all streets ahead of you & your ■■■■ head remarks about the haulage industrey, Regards Larry.
I don’t think I’ve said much different than nmm or Crow has on this topic strange how you only seem to think that it’s only my comments that need all the bs remarks from you though.
Maybe cos the Crow’s done it all and you’ve done [zb] all
I thought it was all about hills starts and being able to drive a motor not where you needed to drive it to.That just needs the ability to read an address.Although the on board REME field workhop and recovery service might be a help if all the tools and parts will fit in the locker.
Just to add more controversy to this healthy debate, I did a hill start on the one in five at Chobham in reverse in an Actros (fully loaded) with the then prototype PowerShift Automated Manual Transmission, the dude from MB was waxing lyrical about the benefits of Hill Hold, I showed him that by being gentle with the right foot and releasing the Parking Brake at the right time, you don’t need a fancy gadget to put drive to your wheels without rolling downhill He said it was fluke, so i did it again, and again, he went very quiet after that Next up was the reversing manouverability test, I never used the creep feature that they had engineered into the clutch, the correct pressure on the go pedal achieves the same effect So in summary, the crap that they’ve added to the AMTs is totally unecessary, I don’t have any special powers, yet I can manage to do what’s necessary in Both manual and Automated Manual Transmissions, as can many other DRIVERS, it’s the steering wheel attendants who need the help
Tony Taylor:
"it must be cheaper and more economic in terms of reliability and maintenance costs to sort out the driver issue instead"These are your words c/f.and it shows that you understand very little of transport today.It is because of the “driver issue” that auto gear boxes and cruise controls were introduced.They are there to address that issue.As NMM so aptly put it "now they can get out of the yard"Auto gear boxes,cruise controls and all the ancillary equipement will only get better and better as time goes by,but I suppose an old dinosaur like you thinks a 13 speed fuller will be around forever.
So we’ve actually reached the stage where the driver needs an automated manual box to help the driver leave the yard. Surely it’s a case then of be afraid,very afraid,when that driver then gets onto the road.Unless they’ve fitted it with automated manual steering and automated manual brakes and a computer to control them.Maybe the real plan is to gradually go for automated driverless trucks which can’t be any worse if the drivers we’ve got can’t get out of the yard in a truck fitted with a 13/18 speed fuller.
Oh! so now at last you’ve seen the light c/f.The real drivers of the old school are slowly fading away and being replaced by steering wheel attendants who are not taught how to drive,they are only taught how to pass a test.Look at the new Merc (it doesn’t have a starting handle any more)it can almost do without a driver.I am sure that in years to come there will be transport without drivers.I am not saying all this technology is necessarily a good thing ,but you’d better believe it that its here to stay.It’s not going to go away just because of your nostalgia.
Every generation of drivers has seen a dramatic change in the way things are done, it’s evolution, the older generations dislike the changes, the younger generations embrace them, it’s the way it is and it’s the way it always will be
Horsemen were disgusted by the new fangled steam engines, steamers were appalled by the oil burners, our Fathers would laugh at our minimum requirements from a lorry, just as their Fathers laughed at them and we will laugh at our Sons
In a short time, lane departure sytems and adaptive cruise controls will mean that lorries can almost drive themselves, there are cars that can park themself on the market now, this technology will filter down to lorries. A barcode in the window will make delivery notes a thing of the past, the day’s of lorry drivers are numbered, soon they will indeed be steering wheel attendants and soon after that they will be a thing of the past too
Have a look at this. Volvo are putting a double-clutch gearbox in the new FH (3 minutes into the video). The implication is that the gears can be changed without any interruption to the transmission of torque. No manual gearbox can beat that.
At two minutes in, they show the engine’s torque curve- 2800Nm at 900rpm. Imagine the vibrations that will generate, when the gearbox is worn and the engine mountings have started to perish!
[zb]
anorak:
Have a look at this. Volvo are putting a double-clutch gearbox in the new FH (3 minutes into the video). The implication is that the gears can be changed without any interruption to the transmission of torque. No manual gearbox can beat that.
At two minutes in, they show the engine’s torque curve- 2800Nm at 900rpm. Imagine the vibrations that will generate, when the gearbox is worn and the engine mountings have started to perish!
It s been most amusing some serious input here i ve obviously known you a long time Tony you are after all me bruv,and also Cooper man you ve both got different opinions and Logic as an old fuddy duddy my preference will always be manual, its apity we all live so far apart i m so looking forward to that plate of scrambled eggs regards Crow.
geoffthecrowtaylor:
It s been most amusing some serious input here i ve obviously known you a long time Tony you are after all me bruv,and also Cooper man you ve both got different opinions and Logic as an old fuddy duddy my preference will always be manual, its apity we all live so far apart i m so looking forward to that plate of scrambled eggs regards Crow.
No-ones saying there’s anything wrong with a manual box Geoff,it’s each to his own,we were brought up on manual boxes but that in itself doesn’t mean they’re better than the lastest auto boxes .Do you remember that old black ex N.I.T.S Atki with that god awful back to front zf we had the misfortune to own? there is no way in the world I would prefer that to the auto DAF I drove last year.The plain truth is I found it easy to drive I had no problems with hill starts,it was returning around 4/litre,and I used to regulary load 25tons of fresh salmon in a frigde and take it from Trondheim to Brest, that gives you a good variety of driving conditions.Compare that to our 89s (which I used to love driving),we were lucky to get 2.5km/litre no matter how gentle you were with the right foot.I grant you in the beginning they take a bit if getting used to especially in winter conditions,but once you’ve mastered them I didn’t have any problems.I don’t think anyone should condem them out of hand like Luddite C/F,who is still clip clopping around with his summer and winter oats.
newmercman:
Just to add more controversy to this healthy debate, I did a hill start on the one in five at Chobham in reverse in an Actros (fully loaded) with the then prototype PowerShift Automated Manual Transmission, the dude from MB was waxing lyrical about the benefits of Hill Hold, I showed him that by being gentle with the right foot and releasing the Parking Brake at the right time, you don’t need a fancy gadget to put drive to your wheels without rolling downhill He said it was fluke, so i did it again, and again, he went very quiet after that Next up was the reversing manouverability test, I never used the creep feature that they had engineered into the clutch, the correct pressure on the go pedal achieves the same effect So in summary, the crap that they’ve added to the AMTs is totally unecessary, I don’t have any special powers, yet I can manage to do what’s necessary in Both manual and Automated Manual Transmissions, as can many other DRIVERS, it’s the steering wheel attendants who need the help
But the idea of the driver doing the accelerator input while the computer etc does the clutch engagement would be no different in that case to what would happen if you had a dual control type set up in which the passenger does the clutch and the driver does the accelerator.The chances of getting the two inputs right and balanced would be more erratic than just the driver or the passenger doing both.It would be interesting to see the actual clutch wear over the long term between the two types assuming we’re comparing a decent driver using a conventional manual box with a computer controlling the clutch and the driver in control of the accelerator .
As for a trying to creep with any mismatch between road speed and engine speed using a clutch that seems to be confusing the abilities of a torque converter with a clutch and trying to make the latter do the same job as the former.There’s no way that can work without taking loads of life out of the clutch which needs to be either engaged or not engaged.
Carry fast the computer system controlling a modern truck is a bit more powerful than a commodore 64 and as I have said in the Volvo I drive it’s very rare I use the manual on the road as it does it right nearly every time. I’d say the only time I really knock it in to manual is going up a hill if it is a road that levels off then gets steep again as obviously the truck can’t see that might change up then have to change down as it digs in for the next climb.
Where I work we have an 04 plate roll on off just had it’s first clutch 8 years is good on that kind of work especially in London not mega mileage about 400.000km but I think you would struggle to get that on a manual whoever was driving it.
I suppose on a road going tractor on long distance it irons out the variables I’d imagine a truck driven by a regular decent driver would have a long clutch life but say a double shifted big fleet truck driven by god knows how many it would be much less mileage.
Carryfast, I don’t know which planet you’ve come from!Go back and read what you’ve just written- it really is verbal diarrhea.In your parlance:- I think that you are “intoxicated with the exuberance of your own verbosity”
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